posted by majorspark

Centuries of history say otherwise.  Its a bargain.

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

You need to get off this idea that the state of Israel never existed prior to 1948.  There is a long history that provides context for the present.  Religious Jews believe that 3rd and final Temple will be built were it existed centuries ago.  That site has two very important structures to Islam that were placed there as a flip off to the scattered nation of Israel and their God.  In order for the Temple to be built those structures I mentioned would have to be razed to the ground.  You can only imagine the shitstorm.

Muslims controlled the Middle East and Jerusalem for centuries and of course there was peace and they left other nations alone.  Why are we in an alliance with South Korea?  Surely the nutjob up north would not be developing missiles tipped with nukes capable of destroying American cities.  Why all this for the southern tip of a peninsula in Asia?  Unfortunately the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Its better to be found a sheep than a goat.

posted by majorspark

You need to get off this idea that the state of Israel never existed prior to 1948.  There is a long history that provides context for the present.  Religious Jews believe that 3rd and final Temple will be built were it existed centuries ago.  That site has two very important structures to Islam that were placed there as a flip off to the scattered nation of Israel and their God.  In order for the Temple to be built those structures I mentioned would have to be razed to the ground.  You can only imagine the shitstorm.

Muslims controlled the Middle East and Jerusalem for centuries and of course there was peace and they left other nations alone.  Why are we in an alliance with South Korea?  Surely the nutjob up north would not be developing missiles tipped with nukes capable of destroying American cities.  Why all this for the southern tip of a peninsula in Asia?  Unfortunately the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Its better to be found a sheep than a goat.

I'm aware of the history of the region.  Prior to 1948, there wasn't an official state to be aligned with.  Then one was founded.  Due to many factors, including some you mention, there is a great deal of hatred between Israel and its neighbors.  While that is too bad for Israel, it is not something we should be in the middle of.  If that's the case, there are plenty of other repressed peoples of the world we should support just as much.  However, that is impractical.  The fact of the matter is that our unconditional support for Israel costs us a lot more than it helps us.  What are the advantages to us?  Having an ally in the Middle East?  So what.  Our military allows us to project our forces anywhere we need to over there or anywhere else. Until this year, we didn't have a base in Israel.  Now there is a small US AF base within an Israeli AF base.  So is that the benefit for our unconditional support.  

posted by majorspark

You need to get off this idea that the state of Israel never existed prior to 1948.  There is a long history that provides context for the present.  Religious Jews believe that 3rd and final Temple will be built were it existed centuries ago.  That site has two very important structures to Islam that were placed there as a flip off to the scattered nation of Israel and their God.  In order for the Temple to be built those structures I mentioned would have to be razed to the ground.  You can only imagine the shitstorm.

Muslims controlled the Middle East and Jerusalem for centuries and of course there was peace and they left other nations alone.  Why are we in an alliance with South Korea?  Surely the nutjob up north would not be developing missiles tipped with nukes capable of destroying American cities.  Why all this for the southern tip of a peninsula in Asia?  Unfortunately the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Its better to be found a sheep than a goat.

Uhh apparently, you really do not understand the importance of the Dome of the Rock in Islam. Also, come on, Muslims believe in the same God as Jews. On that larger point, just because someone had a previous claim to land, does not mean in the modern world they have claims to it now. If that is the case, where is the line drawn? Does China get to claim the South China sea as they are now? Can Russia claim the Ukraine because it used to be in Russia? Or, how about the British saying you know what, those 13 colonies were ours, we want them back. 

Palestinians have just as much right to land as Israel. You cannoit just say oh we were here first, otherwise, the whole notion of the modern state is worthless. 

I'd also argue that the U.S. has a longer alliance with Saudi Arabia than Israel. FDR met with the Saudi King to secure oil for the war. The U.S. was also in favor of trying to keep the Middle East nations away from the Soviet influence during the Cold War. Israel was also on the shit list for the U.S. for many years.(1950s Suez crisis, 1960s nuclear program, 1973 war, stone U.S. nuclear secrets, etc. )  It wasn't until really the 1979 Peace treaty with Egypt and during the 1980s that the U.S./ Israel relationship entered their current phase. 

It is funny how Israel is held to this higher standard within the U.S. ,yet history shows, for most of their modern form, they have had a rocky relationship with the U.S. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

Our military can project force around the world because of overseas bases.  Which ones would you like to withdraw from?  The Middle East is an important part of the world.  Like many other geographical areas.  What don't you like about Israel as opposed to South Korea?  Or say Norway?  We just had some troops drill with the Norwegians pissing the Russians off.  What about the Ukrainians?  Again pissing off the Russians.  Why are you so concerned about the US allying itself with a Middle Eastern nation that does not oppress women and kill gay people?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Uhh apparently, you really do not understand the importance of the Dome of the Rock in Islam. Also, come on, Muslims believe in the same God as Jews. On that larger point, just because someone had a previous claim to land, does not mean in the modern world they have claims to it now. If that is the case, where is the line drawn? Does China get to claim the South China sea as they are now? Can Russia claim the Ukraine because it used to be in Russia? Or, how about the British saying you know what, those 13 colonies were ours, we want them back. 

Palestinians have just as much right to land as Israel. You cannoit just say oh we were here first, otherwise, the whole notion of the modern state is worthless. 

I'd also argue that the U.S. has a longer alliance with Saudi Arabia than Israel. FDR met with the Saudi King to secure oil for the war. The U.S. was also in favor of trying to keep the Middle East nations away from the Soviet influence during the Cold War. Israel was also on the shit list for the U.S. for many years.(1950s Suez crisis, 1960s nuclear program, 1973 war, stone U.S. nuclear secrets, etc. )  It wasn't until really the 1979 Peace treaty with Egypt and during the 1980s that the U.S./ Israel relationship entered their current phase. 

It is funny how Israel is held to this higher standard within the U.S. ,yet history shows, for most of their modern form, they have had a rocky relationship with the U.S. 

I fully understand the importance of the Dome of the Rock to Islam.  I specifically stated it in my previous post.  They are both dececendents of Abraham.  I get it.  Just each one has a different interpretation of who is the chosen people.  I have my interpretation like you.  Like I said you can like it or not but the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.  That is where the line is always drawn.  Currently the nation of Israel holds ultimate power over Jerusalem.  It allows Muslim managent and greatly restricts its own religious sects from practicing at the Temple Mount out of religious concerns and sensitivities to Islam.  Not wanting to stir up a hornets nest (force).  It will all get sorted out in the end.

Like the Russian annexation of Crimea nations can howl and bitch but at this point in time it is a part of Russia.  They are building a bridge.  Only the shedding of blood will pry it from their hands.

posted by majorspark

Our military can project force around the world because of overseas bases.  Which ones would you like to withdraw from?  The Middle East is an important part of the world.  Like many other geographical areas.  What don't you like about Israel as opposed to South Korea?  Or say Norway?  We just had some troops drill with the Norwegians pissing the Russians off.  What about the Ukrainians?  Again pissing off the Russians.  Why are you so concerned about the US allying itself with a Middle Eastern nation that does not oppress women and kill gay people?

We don't have a major base in Israel, so what is the strategic importance?  South Korea and Norway have nothing in common with Israel.  We have a huge military presence in South Korea.  It is there because we chose to fight he communists in the 1950s and now it helps provide a check on North Korea and China.  Regardless of why we're there, our presence there does not insight terrorists from around the globe to attack us regularly.  So I would say the benefits are much higher.  Working with Norway is an example of cooperating with a NATO ally.  Even if the Russians don't like it, they are not inciting jihad over it.  So the benefits are much higher there too.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

We don't have a major base in Israel, so what is the strategic importance?  South Korea and Norway have nothing in common with Israel.  We have a huge military presence in South Korea.  It is there because we chose to fight he communists in the 1950s and now it helps provide a check on North Korea and China.  Regardless of why we're there, our presence there does not insight terrorists from around the globe to attack us regularly.  So I would say the benefits are much higher.  Working with Norway is an example of cooperating with a NATO ally.  Even if the Russians don't like it, they are not inciting jihad over it.  So the benefits are much higher there too.

 

 

This is exactly what I expected.  You want the US to appease the radical violent elements of the Islamic faith.  Historical note:  They don't shrink away when appeased.

posted by Spock

THe main problem with the Middle east/Israel/Palestine issue is that we are involved.  If we GTFO of there everything will work its way out.  Albeit bloody and terrible.....it will work.

People said these same things about the conflicts in Europe and the east that erupted into the World Wars and yet leadership of the first nation truly conceived in liberty was critical in helping solve those global challenges. Because of the rise of the United States, in reality, there is more peace in the world than ever before. We have made some mistakes but some of the retrenchment from Global Leadership e.g. pulling out of the TPP, expiration of the Import-Export Bank, etc. has ceded ground to nation's not similarly amenable to liberal ideas of liberty and justice.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

I believe it was Jesse Helms who used to say that Israel is our aircraft carrier in the Middle East. Perhaps it's easier to avoid another Cuban Missile Crisis if rather than putting nukes in Turkey and the Ukraine you support and align with a nation in the Middle East that creates nuclear weapons under the pretext of defending their right to exist in their ancestral homeland rather than being the forward arsenal of the United States. 

I didn't realize how many Jimmy Dore's there were on this forum :D

US crude oil production in October was a 46 year high; nat gas an all-time high.

Liberals and Big government bureaucrats wrong again...................for decades, and counting. 

posted by majorspark

I fully understand the importance of the Dome of the Rock to Islam.  I specifically stated it in my previous post.  They are both dececendents of Abraham.  I get it.  Just each one has a different interpretation of who is the chosen people.  I have my interpretation like you.  Like I said you can like it or not but the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.  That is where the line is always drawn.  Currently the nation of Israel holds ultimate power over Jerusalem.  It allows Muslim managent and greatly restricts its own religious sects from practicing at the Temple Mount out of religious concerns and sensitivities to Islam.  Not wanting to stir up a hornets nest (force).  It will all get sorted out in the end.

Oh, I totally get the world is ruled by those who use force, I consider myself a neo-realist in that sense. But, if you strictly believe that, then do you accept that the historical claims to areas to not hold any weight? It is only those countries that have the more powerful force can lay claim? That's fair, and I actually agree with that. But, that means you cannot use the line of thinking that Israel has claim to the land because it was there first. No, they lay claim to the land, because they fought for it and won in 1948 and 1968. 

There I will agree with folks. Israel has the right toi exist as it has fought its way to exist. By that same token, Palestine is trying to fight to exist and is keeping that fight to earn what they perceive is their right to exist. The eventual peace will only occur when both sides actually want it to occur, and I simply do not ever see that happening in the near term. 

US Bancorp, Southwest and American Airlines all paying $1,000 bonuses to employees because of the tax bill.  US Bancorp inreasing starting pay rates. 

posted by QuakerOats

US Bancorp, Southwest and American Airlines all paying $1,000 bonuses to employees because of the tax bill.  US Bancorp inreasing starting pay rates. 

 

 

If the GOP were smart (they aren't), they would propose a bill during the summer when the election cycle heats up to make the tax cuts permanent.  That would put a lot of pressure on the Dems.

posted by like_that

If the GOP were smart (they aren't), they would propose a bill during the summer when the election cycle heats up to make the tax cuts permanent.  That would put a lot of pressure on the Dems.

This is another fun one to argue with liberals.  When they start talking about the cost, I tell them it will cost about the same as Obama's porkulus bill that was so popular many wanted MOAR!!!!.....but produce probably at least 3X the growth.

Obama and the Dems were SO CLOSE to European-socialism....fortunately the idiot Donald Trump, along with capitlism and success, are going to squash that libtardian fantasy.

Bloomberg has a (another liberal) piece today quoting former Treas. Sec. Lew bemoaning the tax bill and whining about deficits and bankrupting the country.  Honest to Christ, it is unbelievable they can utter such folly, after having just DOUBLED the national debt by $10 TRILLION in 8 years, with nothing to show for it.  

It is so obvious they are in panic mode right now, knowing full well that the GDP is going to skyrocket, along with worldwide growth.

Trump's latest formal statement of the POTUS on Bannon is straight up LOL. 

"When he was fired, he not only lost his job, he lost his mind.....Steve pretends to be at war with the media, which he calls the opposition party, yet he spent his time at the White House leaking false information to the media to make himself seem far more important than he was. It is the only thing he does well.”

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Trump's latest formal statement of the POTUS on Bannon is straight up LOL. 

"When he was fired, he not only lost his job, he lost his mind.....Steve pretends to be at war with the media, which he calls the opposition party, yet he spent his time at the White House leaking false information to the media to make himself seem far more important than he was. It is the only thing he does well.”

I don't know....I'm going to vote for "winning isn't as easy as I make it look".  LMFAO

The whole statement is one big middle finger to Bannon. Man, the President loves to troll people. 

He's the ultimate shitposter.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Trump's latest formal statement of the POTUS on Bannon is straight up LOL. 

"When he was fired, he not only lost his job, he lost his mind.....Steve pretends to be at war with the media, which he calls the opposition party, yet he spent his time at the White House leaking false information to the media to make himself seem far more important than he was. It is the only thing he does well.”

 

 

 

So, Trump is saying that Bannon was pretending to be him?

LOL. Trump hires the guy to run his campaign and then serve as a top advisor.  Now we're supposed to believe that the guy has been insane all along?  Trump, just admit that one of your own wack jobs is only doing what he nows how to do, stir up a bunch of shit just like his old boss. 

posted by justincredible

He's the ultimate shitposter.

Basically, it proves that Sleeper could one day be POTUS....