posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

There is not one other nation in the world that gets its way with our government like Israel - not even close.  The capital in Jerusalem - really nice.  In reality, it's a landmine issue that we have no reason to have to get into the middle of.  Whether the capital is in Jerusalem is of no concern to us.  It may be wrong how the Palestineans look at the issue as well.  So we need to stay out of it.  We're boholden to Israel despite the fact that Israel does not have our best interest at heart.  $3.1 billion per year given to them, so to hell with worrying about where they want their capital to be.

Every other nation in the world picks their own capital.  If we have an embassy in their country,  we put it in the capital.  Why should Israel be any different?   

$3.1 billion is cheap to have an ally in the middle east.  

The only reason the UN cares is that sweet Opec money.   

The only reason Libtards care is TDS.  

I am glad that we are flexing at the UN.  We are percieved as weak since Obama bowed down to everyone.  Guess what UN?  Trump is not Obama.  Just get in line and get your money.  THe STFU

Anyone notice isadore didn’t make it over from the old site? It’s been so lovely. 

posted by superman

Every other nation in the world picks their own capital.  If we have an embassy in their country,  we put it in the capital.  Why should Israel be any different?   

$3.1 billion is cheap to have an ally in the middle east.  

The only reason the UN cares is that sweet Opec money.   

The only reason 

The rest of the world is looking for a reasonable path forward.  There were people there before Israel appeared on the map 60 years ago. They have a right to have a sovereign country as well. Until that time comes, this issue should wait. Trump is pushing it forward because he’s always been in the bag for Israel. Plus he gets another of his f-you’s to the world (in his mind at least). 

This is angle of “Trump’s showing the rest of the world what a badass he is” is a simpleton explanation. 

Trump already tried to make himself look like a badass with MOAB. Truthfully, I don't think he is and that if you really want to see a "badass" all you have to do is look at Mattis. 

I'm still supportive of the move. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

 

The rest of the world is looking for a reasonable path forward.  There were people there before Israel appeared on the map 60 years ago. They have a right to have a sovereign country as well. Until that time comes, this issue should wait. Trump is pushing it forward because he’s always been in the bag for Israel. Plus he gets another of his f-you’s to the world (in his mind at least). 

 

This is angle of “Trump’s showing the rest of the world what a badass he is” is a simpleton explanation. 

So is Trump a Nazi or in the bag for Israel?  

I can't keep it straight with you libtards.

posted by superman

So is Trump a Nazi or in the bag for Israel?  

I can't keep it straight with you libtards.

I’ve never referred to Trump as a nazi.  He clearly is going to put Israel’s interests on par with ours though.  He’s not the first to have done that.  Our country has paid and continues to pay a dear price for this.  All for a “strategic partner” in the Middle East?  And that has been to our advantage how?  When we pick up the next Israeli spy in the US, is it an advantage because it makes the paperwork easier before we send him home?

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I’ve never referred to Trump as a nazi.  He clearly is going to put Israel’s interests on par with ours though.  He’s not the first to have done that.  Our country has paid and continues to pay a dear price for this.  All for a “strategic partner” in the Middle East?  And that has been to our advantage how?  When we pick up the next Israeli spy in the US, is it an advantage because it makes the paperwork easier before we send him home?

 

 

 Do you really not see the advantages of having an ally in the middle east?   

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

 

The rest of the world is looking for a reasonable path forward.  There were people there before Israel appeared on the map 60 years ago. They have a right to have a sovereign country as well. Until that time comes, this issue should wait. Trump is pushing it forward because he’s always been in the bag for Israel. Plus he gets another of his f-you’s to the world (in his mind at least). 

 

This is angle of “Trump’s showing the rest of the world what a badass he is” is a simpleton explanation. 

The Palestinians have been offered a free state 5 separate times. 

All 5 times they declined because Israel still existed in plan. A couple of those times outside countries like Jordan, Egypt, etc attacked Israel for the mere reason that they existed as a country. 

The 3 most prominent Times was;

-1947 they refused to accept the UN resolution 181 which called for a 2 state solution. 

-2000 President Clinton hosted Arafat and Barak at Camp David  Israel gave up vast concessions and accepted Clinton’s proposal  Arafat refused, returned home, and launched missiles.

-2008 Olmert met with Abbas and presented a peace plan  Olmert’s plan that would have created a Palestinian state in 97% of the West Bank  Abbas refused. 

Lets not act like the Palestinians are just asking for their own state, that is hogwash as they have been offered their own state and REFUSED multiple times. All because they didn’t get the whole country of Israel. Palestine wants Israel and the Jews to not exist in the Middle East.

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

posted by CenterBHSFan

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

The overwhelming majority of democrats and "The Left" are not anti-Israel. Indeed the majority of Jews in America lean to the left. 

What I would say is that there is an outspoken element on the left who views modern Israel as an apartheid state (Whether you disagree, that's fine, but that is the view). Accordingly, these leftists react to Israel they way they might have toward South Africa - they see it as a fundamentally unjust state. 

There is also an element on the left and the libertarian right that blames our alliance with Israel for getting us into unjust and unnecessary conflicts that demonstrate that the costs of the alliance,outweigh the benefits. 

My own views are different than these but I that is my interpretation of avg. progressive lib views on Israel. 

@BS

I actually think you make some good points. But that brings me to what you said about the loud section of the left that looks at the Israel situation as apartheid. That was exactly my main point because they have the distinct inability to see history as a whole when it comes to this situation. And as such they react in such a way that where they will never be able to escape their own point of view. 

Also, because the majority (IIRC) of the Jewish population is secular, one would think that they would be willing to see the other side of facts. 

One more thing, and this doesn't really have anything to do with you... I think we need to be careful when describing liberals and progressives. They are now so far apart that I think a clear separation is in order. The "Gressies" are definitely illiberal. 

posted by superman

 Do you really not see the advantages of having an ally in the middle east?   

Not at the cost this alliance brings.  Cost being much more than the direct, no-strings-attached aid we give.  

posted by CenterBHSFan

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

I'll just add to what Boat said, but a good portion of it could be because the religious right and most Rs are so pro-Israel. Israel can do no wrong and that, especially, the religious portion of the country, will ride to the death with Israel to fit their own personal view. The lefties see that and naturally go against it and point out all the failings of the Israelis.

I've said for years that no one in that area wants peace, both are just happy with the current situation. Until the Palestinians accept the state of Israel, and until Israel accepts a Palestinian state and stops building more and more settlements, we go around and around in this cycle. 

Yes, Palestine could have had a state a few times before, but from their point of view, the swap was not fair. So, they backed out. Same with Israel accepting Palestine. Israel simply cannot accept a Palestine that has an army, which is a core function of a country (the right of self defense.). Until that changes, Palestinians will simply live like second class citizens in a self described Jewish state. (Israel may be a secular state, but many of its laws favor and use the Jewish state.)

posted by CenterBHSFan

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

If we used modern day progressive logic, we could conclude that the left hates jews. 

posted by like_that

If we used modern day progressive logic, we could conclude that the left hates jews. 

Progressive "logic" is an oxymoron....normally, they would look at Israel amongst a sea of Muslims that want to annihalte them, and side with the minority.  But for some reason, in this case, they only see it as an Israel/Palestine issue.

A lot of these issues you really have to look at voters....I think the case here is that the left decided they would gain more voters than they lose by being less pro-Israel.

What's really interesting is nearly 75% of Jewish voters are Democrat or lean Democrat.  But most people, with the exception of Evangelicals, don't appear to have their vote strongly influenced by religion.  Jewish-leaning Dem percentages have not changed signficantly in at least 25 years.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Not at the cost this alliance brings.  Cost being much more than the direct, no-strings-attached aid we give.  

Centuries of history say otherwise.  Its a bargain.

posted by like_that

 

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the UN.  Also, big shocker that Dr. Winston "I am very moderate" Boogie is ok with all of these countries condemning the US.  What will we ever do without Venezuela's support, while they starve their entire nation?!?!

Dave Chappelle is one of my favorite comedians.  Love his white man voice.  As with all comedey the LOL's come with a small element of truth.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

There were people there before Israel appeared on the map 60 years ago.  

Israel appeared on the map more than sixty years ago. 

posted by majorspark

Israel appeared on the map more than sixty years ago. 

Sorry, 69 years ago.  The State of Israel.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

69 years ago

Nice.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Sorry, 69 years ago.  The State of Israel.

You are talking about the modern day state of Israel.  This thing has been going on for thousands of years.  There is a reason the dome of the rock and the al-aqsa mosque sit on the ruins of the Jewish temple.

THe main problem with the Middle east/Israel/Palestine issue is that we are involved.  If we GTFO of there everything will work its way out.  Albeit bloody and terrible.....it will work.

posted by Spock

THe main problem with the Middle east/Israel/Palestine issue is that we are involved.  If we GTFO of there everything will work its way out.  Albeit bloody and terrible.....it will work.

Says the same person who constantly rants about Obama being a wimp.   Oh, the irony.....

posted by gut

Progressive "logic" is an oxymoron....normally, they would look at Israel amongst a sea of Muslims that want to annihalte them, and side with the minority.  But for some reason, in this case, they only see it as an Israel/Palestine issue.

They only side with the minority when they are oppressed. When the minority is kicking ass, the left apparently has to switch sides. 

One thing i do find amusing, there is a pretty good record of Israel treating Christians like shit and the right seems to ignore that.