Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• Con_Alma

  Gblock;691337 wrote:school funding has been found unconstitutional in ohio

  
  Yes, I think most residents have been made aware of this for over a decade now.
• FatHobbit

  

  Gblock;691337 wrote:school funding has been found unconstitutional in ohio

  Con_Alma;691340 wrote:Yes, I think most residents have been made aware of this for over a decade now.

  
  So why hasn't that been changed yet?
• bigkahuna

  I would argue that by training alone, SPED teachers are the most important. They have to have some sort of mental medical knowledge considering the disorders that some of their students could/would have in their classrooms.
  
  Kindergarten teachers could be considered the most valuable because they are the ones that teach students how to read, write, count... Without the work of the Primary teachers, the secondary teachers wouldn't be able do what they do.
  
  To me education is much like an assembly line. If you don't do your job, I can't do mine. In my experience, assembly line workers' pay is not merit based but seniority based much like in the public sector. To add, my experiences (my family's I guess) have never been union influenced.
• Con_Alma

  FatHobbit;691372 wrote:So why hasn't that been changed yet?

  
  That's a question only your State legislators can answer. There are not a lot of ramifications to letting it be and there isn't much motivation to change it.
• Gblock

  FatHobbit;691372 wrote:So why hasn't that been changed yet?

  
  they havent been able to come up with a better solution yet
• jmog

  ernest_t_bass;691245 wrote:LJ - I've said this before. I think that teachers should get to determine their value, based on evaluation, etc. However, I would like to see somewhat of a scale used, where all collective staff members can agree, and they can also see what they need to do to get said raises.
  
  If Tom gets a $20,000 raise, it's gonna raise some questions.
  
  Teacher - "What a sec, WTF did he do to get that kinda raise? I would like the same opportunities to pursue!"
  Admin - "Sorry, we negotiated his wages separately. It's non of your damn business."
  
  You CANNOT tell me that that situation (or something similar) would not go on... somewhere.
  
  As a future admin, I'd also like to have a contract to say, "This is why Tom got his raise. He met all of these criteria that we all, collectively as a group (BOE, Super, Admins, Teachers) agreed upon."

  
  How do you think this goes in the private sector? Do you think all engineers at the same company make the same salary?
• LJ

  

  jmog;691379 wrote:How do you think this goes in the private sector? Do you think all engineers at the same company make the same salary?

  
  I tried to explain how payscales work in a lot of companies but he just kept saying I didn't answer his questions.
• jmog

  Gblock;691336 wrote:you think its harder to be a forign language teacher than a SPED teacher?
  
  SPED teachers work harder than both examples you provided...they have to teach every subject and deal with an Individualized Education Plan for each student while dealing with different learning styles and often difficult behavior issues. they also do 50 times more paper work. these are a skill set that requires just as much smarts as teaching a calculus curriculum to AP students....Calculus is not rocket science and after a few years of teaching it probly becomes pretty rote..

  
  Nobody said that SPED teachers didn't work harder, they said that you have to be smarter to teach calculus.
• Gblock

  jmog;691394 wrote:Nobody said that SPED teachers didn't work harder, they said that you have to be smarter to teach calculus.

  
  i disagree respectfully...in my post if you read the whole thing i said not only do they work harder...but they have to be just as smart...
• bigkahuna

  I would argue that by training alone, SPED teachers are the most important. They have to have some sort of mental medical knowledge considering the disorders that some of their students could/would have in their classrooms.
  
  Kindergarten teachers could be considered the most valuable because they are the ones that teach students how to read, write, count... Without the work of the Primary teachers, the secondary teachers wouldn't be able do what they do.
  
  To me education is much like an assembly line. If you don't do your job, I can't do mine. In my experience, assembly line workers' pay is not merit based but seniority based much like in the public sector. To add, my experiences (my family's I guess) have never been union influenced.
• Con_Alma

  jmog wrote:Nobody said that SPED teachers didn't work harder, they said that you have to be smarter to teach calculus.

  Gblock;691400 wrote:i disagree respectfully

  That's almost exactly what was said.
• dwccrew

  

  Gblock;691290 wrote:you dont understand our point at all actually....
  qoute from this article...."gifted teachers " fired with the bad by this mayor
  
  http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/25/rhode.island.teachers.fired/index.html#

  
  How does this support your argument? The union didn't/won't help anyone in this situation.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  jmog;691379 wrote:How do you think this goes in the private sector? Do you think all engineers at the same company make the same salary?

  
  Absolutely not, but I would assume that there is some type of base, no?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  Gblock;691336 wrote:you think its harder to be a forign language teacher than a SPED teacher?

  
  Of course it is....at least for a foreign language teacher to teach well. My foreign language teacher (French) was horrible. It was all glossary, she had never been to France, or any other French speaking country. If I tried to speak French to a native speaker I'd sound like an idiot, the accent is completely wrong. It was two years of wasted time because she wasn't proficient.
  
  Again, this is the problem, we don't value the skills necessary today, the teachers' unions are out of touch.
• mella

  bigkahuna;691402 wrote:Kindergarten teachers could be considered the most valuable because they are the ones that teach students how to read, write, count... Without the work of the Primary teachers, the secondary teachers wouldn't be able do what they do.
  

  I have to disagree with this. Kindergarten teachers are the least valuable. Any parent with a basic education can teach a child to read, write, and count. A 5 or 6 year old child should not be learning to read coming into kindergarten. They should already have mastered the basics of reading, counting and writing by this age.
  
  The SPED teacher topic is a touchy one. In a lot of districts they support what the regular ed teachers do. The regular ed teacher develops the lesson plans, tests, quizzes. The SPED teachers assist with modifications of materials that were already developed by the regular ed teacher. Regular ed teachers still have to pay attention to IEP's with or without the support of the SPEDs. I have taught in inclusion settings with wonderful SPED teachers but by no means did they work harder than me. One of the problems is the SPED teachers are not trained in science and they are learning the material along with the students. During the second year things are better and more equal in terms of class work load. During the 3rd year of co-teaching SPED have a good grasp on the content material but very few co-teachers get to work together for more than 3 years. People move, retire, switch content classes.
  
  SPEDs do not develop content material, lessons, tests, quizzes..... for the most part they do not bring class assignments home to grade. I've never heard of a SPED having to bring home 50 essays to read and grade or 50 lab reports to grade.
  
  Most kids on IEP's don't even need them and would not have had one 10 years ago. This is a great example of the wussification of American kids.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;691429 wrote:Of course it is....at least for a foreign language teacher to teach well. My foreign language teacher (French) was horrible. It was all glossary, she had never been to France, or any other French speaking country. If I tried to speak French to a native speaker I'd sound like an idiot, the accent is completely wrong. It was two years of wasted time because she wasn't proficient.
  
  Again, this is the problem, we don't value the skills necessary today, the teachers' unions are out of touch.

  
  That teacher needed to go. The union premise is out of touch with this particular scenario.
  
  Find a way to get rid of these types of teachers. Isn't that where we should start? Or is going after pension and health care a good place to start, to help get rid of these bad teachers?
• mella

  BY the way, I am not on the OC during work time. My district has a snowday. I would have gone in and taught but the administration thought the weather was too bad to come in.
• dwccrew

  

  ernest_t_bass;691432 wrote:That teacher needed to go. The union premise is out of touch with this particular scenario.
  
  Find a way to get rid of these types of teachers. Isn't that where we should start? Or is going after pension and health care a good place to start, to help get rid of these bad teachers?

  
  I think for the current economic environment we are in that pension and health care is needed to be changed.
• Gblock

  Manhattan Buckeye;691429 wrote:Of course it is....at least for a foreign language teacher to teach well. My foreign language teacher (French) was horrible. It was all glossary, she had never been to France, or any other French speaking country. If I tried to speak French to a native speaker I'd sound like an idiot, the accent is completely wrong. It was two years of wasted time because she wasn't proficient.
  
  Again, this is the problem, we don't value the skills necessary today, the teachers' unions are out of touch.

  
  i could not disagree more
• ernest_t_bass

  

  mella;691436 wrote:BY the way, I am not on the OC during work time. My district has a snowday. I would have gone in and taught but the administration thought the weather was too bad to come in.

  
  I'm getting sick of these damn snow days, you? We called off yesterday b/c of a little ice, and I was PISSED! Most schools around us went. I would have rather gone.
  
  With all these snow days, we should just take our time off in the Winter, instead of Summer. Seeing this shit makes me want to lean towards a year round school system. I'd much rather like 2-3 weeks off b/t quarters.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  dwccrew;691439 wrote:I think for the current economic environment we are in that pension and health care is needed to be changed.

  
  It was stated somewhere in another thread that eliminating it, or enforcing that part of the bill, will be minuscule to reducing our debt. I don't have numbers, just stating what I read.
• bigkahuna

  mella;691430 wrote:I have to disagree with this. Kindergarten teachers are the least valuable. Any parent with a basic education can teach a child to read, write, and count. A 5 or 6 year old child should not be learning to read coming into kindergarten. They should already have mastered the basics of reading, counting and writing by this age.
  
  The SPED teacher topic is a touchy one. In a lot of districts they support what the regular ed teachers do. The regular ed teacher develops the lesson plans, tests, quizzes. The SPED teachers assist with modifications of materials that were already developed by the regular ed teacher. Regular ed teachers still have to pay attention to IEP's with or without the support of the SPEDs. I have taught in inclusion settings with wonderful SPED teachers but by no means did they work harder than me. One of the problems is the SPED teachers are not trained in science and they are learning the material along with the students. During the second year things are better and more equal in terms of class work load. During the 3rd year of co-teaching SPED have a good grasp on the content material but very few co-teachers get to work together for more than 3 years. People move, retire, switch content classes.
  
  SPEDs do not develop content material, lessons, tests, quizzes..... for the most part they do not bring class assignments home to grade. I've never heard of a SPED having to bring home 50 essays to read and grade or 50 lab reports to grade.
  
  Most kids on IEP's don't even need them and would not have had one 10 years ago. This is a great example of the wussification of American kids.

  
  
  What I've bolded, I honestly wish that were the case. The majority of kindergarten children that I have come across can write their name (usually 1st only) when they start the school year. It would be great if parents took the time to teach their kids to read before they entered school, but I would say a higher majority don't. A buddy of mine has a boy who is getting ready to turn 2, they work with him a lot (they do they My Baby Can Read thing). He already knows his number 1-10 (he can recognize them as well) and can recognize a few words. He'll be able to read within the next year I'm sure. Like I said though, he is more the exception and not the norm.
• Gblock

  mella;691430 wrote:I have to disagree with this. Kindergarten teachers are the least valuable. Any parent with a basic education can teach a child to read, write, and count. A 5 or 6 year old child should not be learning to read coming into kindergarten. They should already have mastered the basics of reading, counting and writing by this age.
  
  The SPED teacher topic is a touchy one. In a lot of districts they support what the regular ed teachers do. The regular ed teacher develops the lesson plans, tests, quizzes. The SPED teachers assist with modifications of materials that were already developed by the regular ed teacher. Regular ed teachers still have to pay attention to IEP's with or without the support of the SPEDs. I have taught in inclusion settings with wonderful SPED teachers but by no means did they work harder than me. One of the problems is the SPED teachers are not trained in science and they are learning the material along with the students. During the second year things are better and more equal in terms of class work load. During the 3rd year of co-teaching SPED have a good grasp on the content material but very few co-teachers get to work together for more than 3 years. People move, retire, switch content classes.
  
  SPEDs do not develop content material, lessons, tests, quizzes..... for the most part they do not bring class assignments home to grade. I've never heard of a SPED having to bring home 50 essays to read and grade or 50 lab reports to grade.
  
  Most kids on IEP's don't even need them and would not have had one 10 years ago. This is a great example of the wussification of American kids.

  you are giving an example of schools where sped's are included in to regular classes....many districts/schools dont do this.
• bigkahuna

  ^^^I forgot to mention that as well.
• Gblock

  i would argue kindergarten is more important than some might think...at this age your brain is more receptive to learning and is making many more connections than when you are older. it is critical to learn to read and other skills at this time because it becomes infinitely more difficult to learn as you get older. our district tries to put the best of the elementary teachers in kindergarten and first grade.