Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• gut

  I have mixed feelings. It's not like a teacher or a cop can go to a company across the street and negotiate a better wage, same employer - supply & demand don't apply in the same manner. And neither is particularly well-suited to take an alternative job in the private sector. An accountant or engineer can go work for a host of companies, often with many opportunities (in a decent job market) within where they live.
  
  So while I agree these pension and retirement benefits are getting out of hand, I'm not sure eliminating the CBA is a good idea. Also, the larger problem seems to be people abusing loopholes to double dip or artifically inflate their pension by backloading vacation and sick pay to bump their qualifying earnings.
  
  To me the larger problem is the guaranteed pension, one that accrues at an interest rate of @ 9% a year, even if the market and economy absolutely tanks. That's the problem with guaranteed benefits that sort of rely on pay-as-you-go and need growth to be maintained (think Big 3). This is the canary in the coal mine of social security. Same type ponzi scheme that is failing.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  CenterBHSFan;678528 wrote:I'm just curious why public union people feel like they NEED somebody else to do the talking and negotiating for themselves?
  Can somebody answer that question for me, please?

  I'm still wondering about this. I mean, we're talking about adults, not children.
  
  Why can't an adult handle their own affairs? Why do they need somebody else (or a group entity) to do it for them?
  I'm assuming that they're either able-bodied, mentally astute, or both - else they wouldn't be able to do public union jobs to begin with, right?
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Apple;678630 wrote:I'm not a fan of unions in today's society. Now they seem to be nothing more than a cash collecting machine

  
  Not at the local level. It's the "big wig" union heads that give them a terrible name, imo.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Apple;678630 wrote:If that is the case, how is it that the school I went to had a near 100% graduation rate (98%?) and was able to secure something like $14 million in college scholarships last year for the 90%+ students who went on to college, all with non-union teachers in the classroom?

  
  Non-union teachers work on the same contract negotiated upon by the unionized teachers.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  ccrunner609;678751 wrote:are you kidding? Teachers are college educated professionals.....you deserve this stuff.

  You know, CC, I usually agree with alot (not all) of your thoughts on government; federal, state, and local. But, this is where the rubber meets the road for you. I think this is a classic example where people can be all for cutting back something UNTIL it becomes personal.
• jc10380

  CenterBHSFan;678698 wrote:I'm still wondering about this. I mean, we're talking about adults, not children.
  
  Why can't an adult handle their own affairs? Why do they need somebody else (or a group entity) to do it for them?
  I'm assuming that they're either able-bodied, mentally astute, or both - else they wouldn't be able to do public union jobs to begin with, right?

  
  So, as a firefighter/paramedic, you want us all to individually negotiate our own contract? How would that work with 1500+ Columbus Firefighters?
  
  We don't "need" someone to do it for us.
  
  I do agree that people should be paid what they are worth, but in a job like mine, how do you propose to do that?
  
  Are there issues that need fixed? Yes. Is this the best way to fix them? No. Should this pass, morale is going to decline rapidly, and services tend to go with morale, just a fact. I am open for suggestions.
• Fab4Runner

  

  ccrunner609;678751 wrote:are you kidding? Teachers are college educated professionals.....you deserve this stuff.

  
  There are millions of college educated professionals out there. Do they all deserve everything teachers already get, too? The ridiculous pensions, health insurance, job security, etc.?
• jc10380

  Fab4Runner;678861 wrote:There are millions of college educated professionals out there. Do they all deserve everything teachers already get, too? The ridiculous pensions, health insurance, job security, etc.?

  
  I can't speak for the teachers union, but the average pension paid to retired firefighters last year was $35,650. I would say that is hardly extravagant. We do not pay into Social Security, and do not draw from Social Security.
• Apple

  

  CenterBHSFan;678764 wrote:You know, CC, I usually agree with alot (not all) of your thoughts on government; federal, state, and local. But, this is where the rubber meets the road for you. I think this is a classic example where people can be all for cutting back something UNTIL it becomes personal.

  
  I agree... especially to the extent where the rubber meets the road. I think there are going to be quite a few defining moments in the near future where lawmakers have to make decisions where it is going to affect virtually all people on a personal basis. I see this a just the first of many "concessions" that Americans, as a whole, are going to have to bear if we are ever going to rid ourselves, our children, our grandchildren (and great grandchildren?) of the MASSIVE DEBT our lifestyles to this point has accrued. It's going to mean some lean times for all of us.
  
  I just wonder if the Patriotic Card will have more meaning than the Me First Card.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Here's the other side of the public unions issue -- where the big bucks REALLY go.
  
  http://thirdbasepolitics.blogspot.com/2011/02/union-bosses-love-unions.html
  
  As for the question of how 1,500 firemen, EMTs, etc. could individually negotiate -- how about just like employees of any large company? There will be salary ranges for various job descriptions. You go in, you interview, and you get the job. You just don't have a union behind you every step of the way that's NOT REALLY NEEDED unless you don't like doing at least an adequate job.
  
  Unions end up protecting bad employees (which makes the good ones look bad in the eyes of the public) and take a nice chunk of your paycheck to do it...oh and to pay union bosses who make far more than the average workers they supposedly represent.
  
  If you are truly someone who feels confident in their ability to do their job, why would you need a union to strong arm taxpayers into giving away the store? Stand on your own two feet and don't be part of a system that is helping to bankrupt local and state governments.
• O-Trap

  

  ccrunner609;678751 wrote:are you kidding? Teachers are college educated professionals.....you deserve this stuff.

  I'm college educated. So are millions of others. That's not the qualification for this kind of thing.
  

  jc10380;678852 wrote:So, as a firefighter/paramedic, you want us all to individually negotiate our own contract? How would that work with 1500+ Columbus Firefighters?

  Large, private-enterprise companies seem to do it without much difficulty. Why would it be so much more difficult in the case of Columbus firefighters?
  

  jc10380;678852 wrote:We don't "need" someone to do it for us.
  
  I do agree that people should be paid what they are worth, but in a job like mine, how do you propose to do that?

  The same way large private enterprises do it. Regular reviews, in which pay is evaluated on an individual basis.
  

  jc10380;678852 wrote:Are there issues that need fixed? Yes. Is this the best way to fix them? No. Should this pass, morale is going to decline rapidly, and services tend to go with morale, just a fact. I am open for suggestions.

  I've heard this a couple times, but I don't know why. I mean, I understand that if you have something ... and then you lose it ... it will lower morale. However, if losing it just puts you on the same plane as everyone else, I hardly see that as a reason to not strive for good service. In the private sector, not striving for quality performance will get you a ticket to the unemployment line. It's a powerful motivator.
  

  Fab4Runner;678861 wrote:There are millions of college educated professionals out there. Do they all deserve everything teachers already get, too? The ridiculous pensions, health insurance, job security, etc.?

  Apparently so! Where the hell was my job security in November of 2009?
  

  jc10380;678880 wrote:I can't speak for the teachers union, but the average pension paid to retired firefighters last year was $35,650. I would say that is hardly extravagant. We do not pay into Social Security, and do not draw from Social Security.

  Lucky. (a) That pension is more than I make in a year. (b) I wish I didn't pay into Social Security. I have more confidence in my own ability to invest for my future than Uncle Sammie.
• dwccrew

  

  ernest_t_bass;678105 wrote:Senate Bill 5, introduced by Senator Shannon Jones (R-Springboro), proposes to end collective bargaining for state and higher education employees and drastically curtail bargaining rights for K-12 educators. Ohio’s educators and working families are aggressively opposing this bill.
  
  What’s at stake?: Collective bargaining allows educators a voice in improving working and learning conditions and opportunities for Ohio's students. This bill would take Ohio backwards and harm students, working families and local economies throughout the state. In today's difficult economic times, we all need to be focused on the essentials. Nothing is more essential than giving our students and children a quality education that prepares them for good jobs.
  
  Senate Bill 5 does the following:
  • Eliminates collective bargaining for state employees and employees of state higher education institutions. Existing CBAs expire according to terms.
  • Does not allow K-12 school employees to collectively bargain on salaries or healthcare.
  • Eliminates public employee salary schedules and step increases and replaces them with an undefined “merit” pay system.
  • Permits school boards to govern healthcare benefit plans for employees and requires public employees to pay at least 20% of their healthcare costs
  • Eliminates continuing contracts for teachers after the bill’s effective date • Eliminates teacher leave policies in statute and requires local school boards to
  determine leave time
  • Eliminates experience as a sole criterion for Reductions In Force (RIFs) • Allows public employers to hire permanent replacement workers during a strike • Prohibits school districts from picking up any portion of the employee’s contribution
  to the pension system
  • Allows a public employer in “fiscal emergency” to serve notice to terminate, modify
  or negotiate a CBA
  • Abolishes the School Employee Healthcare Board
  
  What can you do to help support students, working families and local communities?:
  The elected officials that represent you need to hear that you oppose Senate Bill 5 and the effort to eliminate collective bargaining. We need to highlight that collective bargaining benefits students.
  
  To TAKE ACTION go to http://aces.ohea.org and sign a commitment to protect public education and communicate with your legislators. Also, please recruit your colleagues to help fight this extremely harmful legislation.
  
  Important Messages on Senate Bill 5:
  
  Talking Points:
  • Children need their teachers to focus on them and their classrooms. Allowing the union to represent teachers frees teachers to do what they do best: teach.
  • Taking away the union’s role in support of teachers will mean teacher salaries would be dictated by state politicians and education bureaucrats.
  • Senate Bill 5 will hurt our local schools and kids because taking the unions out of the picture will make it easier for politicians to lay off teachers and cut funding for schools across Ohio.
  • Collective bargaining allows educators a voice in improving opportunities for Ohio’s students, better classroom resources and improved teaching and learning conditions.
  • Teachers know best what’s needed to improve student learning, and collective bargaining gives allows them to focus on teaching rather than time-consuming employment issues.
  • Educators, like all public employees, are an integral part of the fabric of Ohio’s communities. Senate Bill 5 weakens Ohio. Rather than creating jobs, this legislation will hurt local communities, reversing Ohio’s positive economic outlook.
  • Ohio’s collective bargaining law has created a framework for problem-solving that has made strikes rare. Local teachers associations negotiate effectively to avoid disruption for student learning.
  • In a tough economy, with Ohio facing a major budget deficit, we must focus on the essentials. Nothing is more essential than giving our children a quality education that prepares them for good jobs.
  
  Studies and facts about collective bargaining:
  • The public does not support attacks on working families: A January 2011 Quinnipiac poll showed that Ohio voters oppose limits on collective bargaining by public employees by 51% to 34%, a 17 % margin.
  • Ohio’s public employees make less than the private sector: A Rutgers University study for the Economic Policy Institute released in February 2011 finds that similarly educated public employees make less than their private sector peers. Looking at total compensation (wages and nonwage benefits), Ohio public employees annually earn 6% less than comparable private sector employees and 3.5% less on an hourly basis than comparable private sector employees.
  • Collective bargaining did not cause Ohio’s budget deficit: Policy Matters Ohio recently released a study showing that states without public employee collective bargaining are facing the same large budget deficits as state with collective bargaining.
  • Collective bargaining supports high quality education: The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP, 2008) suggests that students in states with CB perform better than those in states without CB: reading and math (4th & 8th grades;
  average freshman graduation rate). Collective bargaining is a staple in the nations that are said to outperform the U.S.; namely, Western Europe & Canada.

  None of those sound all that bad. It is hilarious how unions have duped people into believing they actually need the union.
  

  ernest_t_bass;678280 wrote:Who knows. Ripple effect WILL take place, though. Less money in worker's pockets (whether they are public or private sector employees) means less money to spend in the local private sector, less money paid in taxes, etc.
  
  This could all go into effect AS SOON AS MARCH 15.
  
  I understand that there is a distaste for teacher benefits and salary, but does the public feel comfortable of a morale decline in our PD and FD departments? When morale is low, we all know what that leads to.

  Less money paid in taxes? May be true; however, if teachers and other public sector employees salaries and benefits are reduced, we wouldn't need to pay as much into taxes.
  

  Writerbuckeye;678943 wrote:Here's the other side of the public unions issue -- where the big bucks REALLY go.
  
  http://thirdbasepolitics.blogspot.com/2011/02/union-bosses-love-unions.html
  
  As for the question of how 1,500 firemen, EMTs, etc. could individually negotiate -- how about just like employees of any large company? There will be salary ranges for various job descriptions. You go in, you interview, and you get the job. You just don't have a union behind you every step of the way that's NOT REALLY NEEDED unless you don't like doing at least an adequate job.
  
  Unions end up protecting bad employees (which makes the good ones look bad in the eyes of the public) and take a nice chunk of your paycheck to do it...oh and to pay union bosses who make far more than the average workers they supposedly represent.
  
  If you are truly someone who feels confident in their ability to do their job, why would you need a union to strong arm taxpayers into giving away the store? Stand on your own two feet and don't be part of a system that is helping to bankrupt local and state governments.

  
  +1
  
  I always wonder why teachers use the argument that we must have CBA and unions so that education doesn't lack in quality, yet private and catholic schools are non-union and often outperform the public sector.
• majorspark

  

  gut;678638 wrote:I have mixed feelings. It's not like a teacher or a cop can go to a company across the street and negotiate a better wage, same employer - supply & demand don't apply in the same manner. And neither is particularly well-suited to take an alternative job in the private sector.

  Teachers can't go to a neighboring school district? Cops can't go to a neighboring municipality or county? They can't pick up and move if necessary to negotiate and find compensation to fit their needs? Is that not the reality all of us face in the private sector?
  
  It is possible for there to be more competition in the public sector. Why couldn't supply and demand apply? Is there not a demand for a supply of good teachers and cops? The reason supply and demand does not apply in the same manner is because of protectionist policies that come from collective bargaining. Seeking to insulate them from the current economic winds.
  

  gut;678638 wrote:An accountant or engineer can go work for a host of companies, often with many opportunities (in a decent job market) within where they live.

  This may at times be the case in a decent job market. But in an indecent job market many may have to pick up and move. Those in the public sector have to realize that they are sustained by the private sector. The private sector no longer in some levels or areas of government jurisdiction has the economic means to insulate them from economic reality.
• dwccrew

  

  majorspark;678988 wrote:Teachers can't go to a neighboring school district? Cops can't go to a neighboring municipality or county? They can't pick up and move if necessary to negotiate and find compensation to fit their needs? Is that not the reality all of us face in the private sector?
  
  It is possible for there to be more competition in the public sector. Why couldn't supply and demand apply? Is there not a demand for a supply of good teachers and cops? The reason supply and demand does not apply in the same manner is because of protectionist policies that come from collective bargaining. Seeking to insulate them from the current economic winds.
  
  
  
  This may at times be the case in a decent job market. But in an indecent job market many may have to pick up and move. Those in the public sector have to realize that they are sustained by the private sector. The private sector no longer in some levels or areas of government jurisdiction has the economic means to insulate them from economic reality.

  
  
  This is the best post on this thread. Teachers and other public sector employees can now move (assuming this bill passes) because the policies that unions enforce would be null and void.
• jc10380

  Public sector employees in Ohio make an average of 3% less than their private counterparts.
  
  I don't understand how Republicans think that Police officers, Firefighters, and Teachers have caused all of this. Politicians need a great big mirror.
• jc10380

  O-Trap;678983 wrote:
  
  
  Lucky. (a) That pension is more than I make in a year. (b) I wish I didn't pay into Social Security. I have more confidence in my own ability to invest for my future than Uncle Sammie.

  
  
  
  Whose fault is that? Are you mad that public sector employees make more than you? No one is stopping you from going and getting another private sector job.
  
  I pray that you never have to call 911. However, if you do, let me know how much those people that show up are worth when they save you as you are having a heart attack.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  dwccrew;679001 wrote:This is the best post on this thread. Teachers and other public sector employees can now move (assuming this bill passes) because the policies that unions enforce would be null and void.

  
  I still think that depends on the pay scale that each individual BOE develops. Local boards might still decide to have a pay scale based on experience. If I leave my district, I still might be unhirable based on the new district's pay scale.
• OneBuckeye

  

  jc10380;679128 wrote:Public sector employees in Ohio make an average of 3% less than their private counterparts.
  
  I don't understand how Republicans think that Police officers, Firefighters, and Teachers have caused all of this. Politicians need a great big mirror.

  
  They certainly haven't caused this, but government pensions gaurenteed for life have caused this. When this was thought up in no one figured most people would be getting this pension for 30 years or more. Its a case of a system that may have been good at one time is not good now.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Example - I have a friend who is a beer distributor driver. He delivers beer over a 2/3 county area. He used to be salary and worked pretty hard, worked long days, to make sure the work got done. Now, he didn't do the complete pre/post trip inspections on his vehicle every day like he was supposed to, rather he just went through it quick to make sure all was OK, and hit the road to make some early deliveries.
  
  They switched him to hourly, all workers ended up taking a pay cut because of it. Human nature lead to what happened next. All the workers said FINE! They now spend about an extra 2 hours per day going through the full inspection of the truck like the industry standards state they must do. They lost a lot of incentive to get their work done. They are not unionized, but there are no grounds for firing them. They don't work as hard, but they are doing exactly what the industry standard says they have to do. Demoralization, IMO, lead to this.
  
  I see the same thing happening in the public services.
• OneBuckeye

  

  ernest_t_bass;679142 wrote:I still think that depends on the pay scale that each individual BOE develops. Local boards might still decide to have a pay scale based on experience. If I leave my district, I still might be unhirable based on the new district's pay scale.

  
  Why would you be unhirable? I don't follow.
  
  The teaching market is so saturated I would think schools would trend towards hiring more younger teachers, it would definately be harder for older teachers to maintain their higher pay with the number of teachers in the market without a CBA.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Has the government considered messing with some of the different safety nets and entitlement programs to help save a dime? How about lottery? Can that be distributed differently?
  
  I just see all of this as "Rob Peter to pay Paul."
• OneBuckeye

  

  ernest_t_bass;679159 wrote:Has the government considered messing with some of the different safety nets and entitlement programs to help save a dime? How about lottery? Can that be distributed differently?
  
  I just see all of this as "Rob Peter to pay Paul."

  
  I do know a representative in Ohio has introduced a bill to drug test welfare recipiants.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  OneBuckeye;679156 wrote:Why would you be unhirable? I don't follow.
  
  The teaching market is so saturated I would think schools would trend towards hiring more younger teachers, it would definately be harder for older teachers to maintain their higher pay with the number of teachers in the market without a CBA.

  
  Are you saying that it is OK for a GOOD teacher, who is old, be let go b/c they make too much money, and just hire a younger one? Districts can now do this, if this passes.
  
  What most people don't understand... THERE ARE WAYS IN PLACE NOW, TO GET RID OF BAD TEACHERS. Most admins just don't want to go through the hassle of it.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  OneBuckeye;679162 wrote:I do know a representative in Ohio has introduced a bill to drug test welfare recipiants.

  
  Love it!
• jc10380

  ernest_t_bass;679153 wrote:Example - I have a friend who is a beer distributor driver. He delivers beer over a 2/3 county area. He used to be salary and worked pretty hard, worked long days, to make sure the work got done. Now, he didn't do the complete pre/post trip inspections on his vehicle every day like he was supposed to, rather he just went through it quick to make sure all was OK, and hit the road to make some early deliveries.
  
  They switched him to hourly, all workers ended up taking a pay cut because of it. Human nature lead to what happened next. All the workers said FINE! They now spend about an extra 2 hours per day going through the full inspection of the truck like the industry standards state they must do. They lost a lot of incentive to get their work done. They are not unionized, but there are no grounds for firing them. They don't work as hard, but they are doing exactly what the industry standard says they have to do. Demoralization, IMO, lead to this.
  
  I see the same thing happening in the public services.

  
  Sad to say, but +1. I totally agree with this.
  
  Morale plays a huge role in my job. Being on this site, I assume that most people hear played teams sports. I correlate my job to a team sport.
  
  If your coach doesn't treat you well, you are not going to give 100% for that coach. If you love your coach and he treats you well, you would do anything for that coach, and give 110% all the time. That is the way firefighters feel about their jobs. If I had to show up for work and be demoralized, laws of nature say I'm not going to do as good of a job as I am able. If I love where I work and who I work with, the services you get will be through the roof.