Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• ernest_t_bass

  

  LJ;691266 wrote:So then some people will be better at their job than others. I am not giving condescending questions, but it is obvious you are having a hard time understanding how non-union private industry works.

  
  No, I understand your side completely.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  LJ;691270 wrote:And others wouldn't be worth more to begin with? You didn't address any of my concerns. You are worth 50k, the others think everyone is worth 40k. You are letting others dictate wht you are worth.

  
  Given your example (50k vs. 40k) would fit my example of a "raise" (even though this isn't necessarily a raise) to which people would want to know what they can do to earn the same amount.
  
  School systems operate in the public eye, and the public would have influence on how they operate. THe public doesn't care about the Widget Factory in town, so they don't care what goes on there as much as they do the school.
• Con_Alma

  ernest_t_bass;691278 wrote:...
  
  School systems operate in the public eye, and the public would have influence on how they operate. THe public doesn't care about the Widget Factory in town, so they don't care what goes on there as much as they do the school.

  ...and because they care "more" they want a more accurate per person compensation to be seen.
• LJ

  

  ernest_t_bass;691278 wrote:Given your example (50k vs. 40k) would fit my example of a "raise" (even though this isn't necessarily a raise) to which people would want to know what they can do to earn the same amount.
  
  School systems operate in the public eye, and the public would have influence on how they operate. THe public doesn't care about the Widget Factory in town, so they don't care what goes on there as much as they do the school.

  
  And the public wants the good teachers to be compensated properly, the middle range teachers to be compensated properly and the bad teachers to be fired. They want the amount of compensation to be accurate. They don't want people to be able to force their tax dollars to be spent.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I don't know if I'm going to post much more on this subject, as it seems clear that nobody will change their minds. To total up the two differing sides is quite simple, IMO.
  
  1. We (for SB5) think that public employees can handle their careers on their own, much better than any union flunky ever could, and do a pretty commendable job of it. We believe in the power of the individual.
  
  2. They (against SB5) think they cannot. They do not believe in the power of the individual, and prefer the strength of the pack.
  
  I know that that is way oversimplified. But it basically is the cruxt. And because of that, I do not think that there's much more input that I personally can provide.
• Con_Alma

  CenterBHSFan;691285 wrote:I don't know if I'm going to post much more on this subject, as it seems clear that nobody will change their minds. ...

  Is the goal really to change the opposite side's mind?
• Gblock

  CenterBHSFan;691285 wrote:I don't know if I'm going to post much more on this subject, as it seems clear that nobody will change their minds. To total up the two differing sides is quite simple, IMO.
  
  1. We (for SB5) think that public employees can handle their careers on their own, much better than any union flunky ever could, and do a pretty commendable job of it. We believe in the power of the individual.
  
  2. They (against SB5) think they cannot. They do not believe in the power of the individual, and prefer the strength of the pack.
  
  I know that that is way oversimplified. But it basically is the cruxt. And because of that, I do not think that there's much more input that I personally can provide.

  
  you dont understand our point at all actually....
  qoute from this article...."gifted teachers " fired with the bad by this mayor
  
  http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/25/rhode.island.teachers.fired/index.html#
• LJ

  

  Gblock;691290 wrote:you dont understand our point at all actually....
  qoute from this article...."gifted teachers " fired with the bad by this mayor
  
  http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/25/rhode.island.teachers.fired/index.html#

  
  You realize that is something the union caused right? Not something that the Union is protecting you guys from
• bases_loaded

  

  ernest_t_bass;691228 wrote:Just read post #1.

  
  Seems pretty biased
• Con_Alma

  LJ;691294 wrote:You realize that is something the union caused right? Not something that the Union is protecting you guys from

  
  ...another example of having reached the point of diminishing returns.
• Gblock

  LJ;691294 wrote:You realize that is something the union caused right? Not something that the Union is protecting you guys from

  
  caused?
• QuakerOats

  Gblock;691290 wrote:you dont understand our point at all actually....
  qoute from this article...."gifted teachers " fired with the bad by this mayor
  
  http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/25/rhode.island.teachers.fired/index.html#

  Bad argument on your part, but excellent example of what happens when management's hands are tied because of assinine COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS; it forces a manager to make a decision that he otherwise would not make. As a result, the bad can be thrown out with the good because unions do only one thing well --- protect status quo and mediocrity. Sorry you can't seem to understand that. How does it feel to belong to the group wishing to continue to enslave the students, the taxpayers, and the GOOD TEACHERS?
• Gblock

  QuakerOats;691305 wrote:Bad argument on your part, but excellent example of what happens when management's hands are tied because of assinine COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS; it forces a manager to make a decision that he otherwise would not make. As a result, the bad can be thrown out with the good because unions do only one thing well --- protect status quo and mediocrity. Sorry you can't seem to understand that. How does it feel to belong to group wishing to continue to enslave the students, the taxpayers, and the GOOD TEACHERS?

  do some research on this school and the students who go there and get back to me.....
• bonelizzard

  Con_Alma;691262 wrote:...but this is only half of the equation. Those who fund your salary must be happy with it also.

  
  I saw one question mark in that statement that I asked,"What if you are worth more than everyone else?" ok, I'll answer that question. I don't feel that I am worth more than everyone else and I am very happy with the salary that I make.
• LJ

  

  bonelizzard;691308 wrote:I saw one question mark in that statement that I asked,"What if you are worth more than everyone else?" ok, I'll answer that question. I don't feel that I am worth everyone else and I am very happy with the salary that I make.

  
  Apathy is no excuse
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;691308 wrote:I saw one question mark in that statement that I asked,"What if you are worth more than everyone else?" ok, I'll answer that question. I don't feel that I am worth everyone else and I am very happy with the salary that I make.

  
  I wasn't questioning your post I was adding to it. Even if you are happy with your salary we are approaching a time whereby we have a public who may not be happy in continuing to fund it. Your happiness is only one part of the equation.
• bonelizzard

  CenterBHSFan;691285 wrote:I don't know if I'm going to post much more on this subject, as it seems clear that nobody will change their minds. To total up the two differing sides is quite simple, IMO.
  
  1. We (for SB5) think that public employees can handle their careers on their own, much better than any union flunky ever could, and do a pretty commendable job of it. We believe in the power of the individual.
  
  2. They (against SB5) think they cannot. They do not believe in the power of the individual, and prefer the strength of the pack.
  
  I know that that is way oversimplified. But it basically is the cruxt. And because of that, I do not think that there's much more input that I personally can provide.

  
  union flunky. I'm laughing right now.. Master's +30, working toward 45.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  bases_loaded;691297 wrote:Seems pretty biased

  
  It is. It's from the OEA.
• bases_loaded

  

  I highly doubt lawmakers are trying to destroy teachers, firemen, police officers.
  
  Anyone who supports banning 5 is brainwashed by their union leader. Its 2011, no need for unions anymore. I promise you will do much better in a system that rewards merit rather than the least common denominator.
• bonelizzard

  Con_Alma;691312 wrote:I wasn't questioning your post I was adding to it. Even if you are happy with your salary we are approaching a time whereby we have a public who may not be happy in continuing to fund it. Your happiness is only one part of the equation.

  
  school funding.. yes, something does need to be done about that..
• Con_Alma

  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions
  
  Taking another step forward in Wisky
  
  By TODD RICHMOND, Associated Press Todd Richmond, Associated Press – 28 mins ago
  
  MADISON, Wis. – Republicans in the Wisconsin Assembly took the first significant action on their plan to strip collective bargaining rights from most public workers, abruptly passing the measure early Friday morning before sleep-deprived Democrats realized what was happening.
  
  The vote ended three straight days of punishing debate in the Assembly. But the political standoff over the bill — and the monumental protests at the state Capitol against it — appear far from over.
  
  The Assembly's vote sent the bill on to the Senate, but minority Democrats in that house have fled to Illinois to prevent a vote. No one knows when they will return from hiding. Republicans who control the chamber sent state troopers out looking for them at their homes on Thursday, but they turned up nothing.
  
  "I applaud the Democrats in the Assembly for earnestly debating this bill and urge their counterparts in the state Senate to return to work and do the same," Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, R-Horicon, said in a statement issued moments after the vote.
  
  The plan from Republican Gov. Scott Walker contains a number of provisions he says are designed to fill the state's $137 million deficit and lay the groundwork for fixing a projected $3.6 billion shortfall in the upcoming 2011-13 budget.
  
  The flashpoint is language that would require public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health insurance and strip them of their right to collectively bargain benefits and work conditions.
  
  Democrats and unions see the measure as an attack on workers' rights and an attempt to cripple union support for Democrats. Union leaders say they would make pension and health care concessions if they can keep their bargaining rights, but Walker has refused to compromise.
  
  Tens of thousands of people have jammed the Capitol since last week to protest, pounding on drums and chanting so loudly that police providing security have resorted to ear plugs. Hundreds have taken to sleeping in the building overnight, dragging in air mattresses and blankets.
  
  Click image to see photos of the Wisconsin protest
  
  
  AP/Wisconsin State Journal, M.P. King
  
  Walker issued a statement Friday praising the Assembly for passing the bill and renewing his call for Senate Democrats to return.
  
  "The fourteen Senate Democrats need to come home and do their jobs, just like the Assembly Democrats did," Walker said.
  
  With the Senate immobilized, Assembly Republicans decided to act and convened the chamber Tuesday morning.
  
  Democrats launched a filibuster, throwing out dozens of amendments and delivering rambling speeches. Each time Republicans tried to speed up the proceedings, Democrats rose from their seats and wailed that the GOP was stifling them.
  
  Debate had gone on for 60 hours and 15 Democrats were still waiting to speak when the vote started around 1 a.m. Friday. Speaker Pro Tem Bill Kramer, R-Waukesha, opened the roll and closed it within seconds.
  
  Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.
  
  Republicans immediately marched out of the chamber in single file. The Democrats rushed at them, pumping their fists and shouting "Shame!" and "Cowards!"
  
  The Republicans walked past them without responding.
  
  Democrats left the chamber stunned. The protesters greeted them with a thundering chant of "Thank you!" Some Democrats teared up. Others hugged.
  
  "What a terrible, terrible day for Wisconsin," said Rep. Jon Richards, D-Milwaukee. "I am incensed. I am shocked."
  
  GOP leaders in the Assembly refused to speak with reporters, but earlier Friday morning Majority Leader Scott Suder, R-Abbotsford, warned Democrats that they had been given 59 hours to be heard and Republicans were ready to vote.
  
  The governor has said that if the bill does not pass by Friday, the state will miss a deadline to refinance $165 million of debt and will be forced to start issuing layoff notices next week. However, the deadline may not as strict as he says.
  
  The nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau said earlier this week that the debt refinancing could be pushed back as late as Tuesday to achieve the savings Walker wants. Based on a similar refinancing in 2004, about two weeks are needed after the bill becomes law to complete the deal. That means if the bill is adopted by the middle of next week, the state can still meet a March 16 deadline, the Fiscal Bureau said.
  
  Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach said he and his colleagues wouldn't return until Walker compromised.
  
  Frustrated by the delay, Senate Republican Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, Jeff Fitzgerald's brother, ordered state troopers to find the missing Democrats, but they came up empty. Wisconsin law doesn't allow police to arrest the lawmakers, but Fitzgerald said he hoped the show of authority would have pressured them to return.
  
  Erpenbach, who was in the Chicago area, said all 14 senators remained outside of Wisconsin.
  
  "It's not so much the Democrats holding things up," Erpenbach said. "It's really a matter of Gov. Walker holding things up."
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "Why would anyone want to be a SPED teacher, or a Kindergarten teacher, if they know there is more money to be made in other subjects? "
  
  Because they aren't smart enough to be a calculus or foreign languages teacher, again the same way it works in every other industry.
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;691325 wrote:school funding.. yes, something does need to be done about that..

  
  ...maybe so but that wasn't the point of our exchange.
  
  I have no problem with they way we fund schools. The State provides a minimum funding per student. If communities wish to have a greater level of service provided they can pay for it.
• Gblock

  Manhattan Buckeye;691328 wrote:"Why would anyone want to be a SPED teacher, or a Kindergarten teacher, if they know there is more money to be made in other subjects? "
  
  Because they aren't smart enough to be a calculus or foreign languages teacher, again the same way it works in every other industry.

  
  you think its harder to be a forign language teacher than a SPED teacher?
  
  SPED teachers work harder than both examples you provided...they have to teach every subject and deal with an Individualized Education Plan for each student while dealing with different learning styles and often difficult behavior issues. they also do 50 times more paper work. these are a skill set that requires just as much smarts as teaching a calculus curriculum to AP students....Calculus is not rocket science and after a few years of teaching it probly becomes pretty rote..
• Gblock

  Con_Alma;691331 wrote:...maybe so but that wasn't the point of our exchange.
  
  I have no problem with they way we fund schools. The State provides a minimum funding per student. If communities wish to have a greater level of service provided they can pay for it.

  
  school funding has been found unconstitutional in ohio