Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

• majorspark

  

  I Wear Pants;492496 wrote:I don't think it was really a poor choice of words because I understood what he meant. But I can see how it would be taken a different way and when taken that way would sound like a horrible thing to say.

  That is why at best it is a poor choice of words. If you are going to build bridges between cultures and religions you must choose your words and actions carefully. For instance in the Arab world crossing your leg up on your thigh and exposing the sole of your shoe is a major insult. To us Americans we find that ridiculous. Maybe some Arabs would understand the cultural ignorance and realize you meant well but the fact is most of the populace would not. Large numbers of Americans find his choice of words suspect. Including myself. Many more find them insulting.
• isadore

  I Wear Pants;492941 wrote:And out from under the bridge isadore emerges.

  My country always wrong-IWP
  
  
  
  'Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. " Aldous Huxley
• I Wear Pants

  I agree there. Horrible choice of words (which may be due to him having a primary language that isn't English since I don't know if he's from America originally). If I'm someone doing something publicaly dealing with different religions which is always touchy feely then I'm choosing my words carefully. So maybe the guy isn't a good speaker or is really dumb at PR. Where you and I disagree is that he has nefarious motives. And I'm fine with that, we both understand what he said and interpreted it different.
  
  Other people always wrong, USA USA USA always right- isadore
  
  
  Huxley is a good read. I love the ending of Brave New World and I like the letter he wrote to Orwell detailing how he thought his dystopia was much more likely than the one shown in 1984. It was pretty funny. I have a feeling Orwell would have been all "dude, chill out".
• isadore

  it must do your heart good to see your expressed opinions reflect those of three individuals who share your opinion of America.
  But of course you are offended by someone being supportive to the nation that has done more for freedom than any other in human history. Hardly a surprise.
• I Wear Pants

  Why are you so afraid to admit that the United States does not always do the correct thing?
  
  I don't claim that we always or even most times do the wrong thing. It's quite the contrary. We've traditionally done what I consider to be the right thing. Doesn't mean you don't speak out when you see something you consider wrong happening.
  
  Analogy: Just because someone is great with children and gives to the community and is an all around nice guy doesn't mean you shouldn't confront him or tell someone if you see him hit his wife.
• isadore

  I have never claimed the United States has been perfect. But I do claim it has done more for freedom than any other nation.
  As opposed to you and Kim il Sung I do not see the United States as the most imperialist nation in the world.
  
  As opposed to you and Mr Zawahiri I dont see America forcing other nations to bow before us.
  And as opposed to you and Mr. Bin Laden I see no jusitification for the terrorist tactics used against us.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  I don't think the Imam chose his words poorly. I believe he's smart enough to know exactly what he was saying -- and he believes what he said.
  
  The man has zero credibility with most Americans, including me. He claims to want to build bridges then turns around and continues to fight for a project he knows upsets and alienates something like 70 percent of the same people he supposedly wants to build bridges to.
  
  He's either a liar or a hypocrite. Perhaps both.
• isadore

  this guy moved to the United States while he was a teenager, became a US citizen, and got his undergraduate degree in physics from Columbia
  he knows English and knows the meaning of accessory as well or better than most of us.
• I Wear Pants

  isadore;492975 wrote:I have never claimed the United States has been perfect. But I do claim it has done more for freedom than any other nation.
  As opposed to you and Kim il Sung I do not see the United States as the most imperialist nation in the world.
  
  As opposed to you and Mr Zawahiri I dont see America forcing other nations to bow before us.
  And as opposed to you and Mr. Bin Laden I see no jusitification for the terrorist tactics used against us.

  Understanding does not = justifying.
  
  I've had several economics professors with advanced degrees from good schools in the US that can barely speak English. But I've heard the Imam speak and he has no problem with English.
• isadore

  based on your reply you only disagree with the statement about terrorist tactics as you did not dispute the other two charges. That you and Kim il Sung share the opinion that we are the most imperialist nation in the world and with Al zawahiri and you that we force all other nations to bow to us.
  This statement "So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight." is not understanding, but an outright attempt to justify the use of terrorist tactics as the only alternative the charming folks in al queda and taliban.
  
  I am sure very few of those economics professors had been living in the United States since they were teenagers.
• I Wear Pants

  I'm positive that in fact at least one or two of them had been.
  
  And go ahead and keep telling me what I believe and what I don't believe and inferring things that I haven't said or applying things I do say to contexts I didn't mean them in. You're a troll. You literally try to take every thread you post in into some argument with some poster over something he said that you disagree on and you will not let it go. Even when someone clearly says "no, that's not how I meant it" you continue with the "well clearly you meant xxx xxx and xxx because xxx" . It's exhausting and I care to do no more of it.
  
  Is there still an ignore button?
• isadore

  You have written what you believe.
  How can the statement
  "we are the nearest thing to imperialists in the world" have its meaning changed in any context. That stands on its own as a condemnation of our nation.
  "So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?""
  And how can the above statement be taken as anything but sympathetic toward our enemies and condemning toward us.
  Of course each statement was given on its own in separate replies. That is the context.
  
  two ringing condemnation of America.
• majorspark

  

  Writerbuckeye;492976 wrote:I don't think the Imam chose his words poorly. I believe he's smart enough to know exactly what he was saying -- and he believes what he said.

  This is where I lean as well. Like I said his only excuse for using those words is ignorance. I can't read a man's heart. So I can't prove his intent. The Imam is a well educated man so I can only assume he is not ignorant and knows full well the gravity of his words.
• jmog

  Footwedge;492452 wrote:So when are you going to show me where I said Jesus promotes violence? I got all week.
  
  Crickets......

  1. I have multiple times, you just either can't read, or are trying to act like you did not.
  2. Jhay just showed you again up at post 664.
  3. You are now admitting at you at least said the New Testament promotes violence then? Finally, baby steps here I guess. Reading comprehension will lead you to also admit that since you had just got done quoting Jesus before your statement that I have bolded many times, that you were saying Jesus promoted violence.
  3. I'm still waiting on you to show me where I said the Qu'ran was a book of hate (you said I did, but can't come up with a quote). If you can not, I expect an apology.
• dwccrew

  

  isadore;493003 wrote:You have written what you believe.
  How can the statement
  "we are the nearest thing to imperialists in the world" have its meaning changed in any context. That stands on its own as a condemnation of our nation.
  "So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?""
  And how can the above statement be taken as anything but sympathetic toward our enemies and condemning toward us.
  Of course each statement was given on its own in separate replies. That is the context.
  
  two ringing condemnation of America.

  
  Clearly you hate gorillas. And probably puppies too. I hate guerilla tactics, but not gorillas.
• isadore

  ^^^^^
  I like puppies.
  Notice the quotation marks big guy.
  That is a statement made by IWP on #65 Nobody is winning in Afghanistan-General McChrystal
  

  I wear pants wrote:So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"

  His spelling error was pointed out long ago. But more importantly the content of the statement is unmistakably sympathetic toward the Taliban and Al Queda.
• FatHobbit

  

  isadore;495202 wrote:I like puppies.

  
  Who hates kittens? You're a horrible person and unmistakably sympathetic towards the devil.
• isadore

  ^^^
  I am not that fond of kittens, they turn into cats who are known servants of the devil.
• FatHobbit

  

  isadore;495218 wrote:^^^
  I am not that fond of kittens until they turn into cats who are known servants of the devil.

  
  AHA! I knew it!
• isadore

  tsk, tsk, tsk
• jhay78

  

  Interesting article from earlier in the week:
  
  http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/09/20/survey-shows-arabs-more-opposed-gz-mosque-american-media
  

  According to a recent survey by the Arabic online news service Elaph (Arabic version here), 58 percent of Arabs think the construction should be moved elsewhere. And according to a Media Research Center study released last week, 55 percent of network news coverage of the debate has come down on the pro-Mosque side.
  
  The MRC study also found that on the question of whether opposition to the mosque demonstrated a widely held "Islamophobia" among Americans, 93 percent of network news soundbites answered ion the affirmative. In contrast, when asked whether the United States is a "tolerant" or "bigoted" society, 63 percent of Elaph respondents chose the former.
  
  So the Arab world has a more favorable view of Americans than our own media elite, and sides with the American people over the network news broadcasters on the hot-button issue of the day.

  Obviously, not all Arabs are Muslims, but that's still an interesting stat.
  
  Another from the WSJ:
  
  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703743504575493711825224290.html
  

  There is no gain to be had, no hearts and minds to be won, in Imam Rauf insisting that Ground Zero can't be hallowed ground because there is a strip joint and an off-track betting office nearby. This may be true, but it is irrelevant.
  
  A terrible deed took place on that ground nine years ago. Nineteen young Arabs brought death and ruin onto American soil, and discretion has a place of pride in the way the aftermath is handled. "Islam" didn't commit these crimes, but young Arabs and Muslims did.
  
  There is no use for the incantation that Islam is a religion of peace. The incantation is false; Islam, like other religions, is theologically a religion of war and a religion of peace. In our time, it is a religion in distress, fought over, hijacked at times, by a militant breed at war with the modern world.
  
  
  Again, from Elaph, here are the thoughts of an Arab writer, Ahmed Abu Mattar, who sees through the militancy of the religious radicals. He dismisses outright the anger over the "foolish and deranged" Pastor Terry Jones who threatened to burn copies of the Quran. "Where is the anger in the face of dictatorships which dominate the lives of Arabs from the cradle to the grave? Would the Prophet Muhammad look with favor on the prisons in our midst which outnumber the universities and hospitals? Would he take comfort in the rate of illiteracy among the Arabs which exceeds 60%? Would he be satisfied with the backwardness that renders us a burden on other nations?"
  
  The first Arabs who came to America arrived during the time of the Great Migration (1880-1920). Their story is told by Gregory Orfalea in his book, "The Arab Americans: A History" (2006). The pioneers were mostly Christians on the run from the hunger and the privations of a dying Ottoman empire. One such pioneer who fled Lebanon for America said he wanted to leave his homeland and "go to the land of justice." Ellis Island was fondly named bayt al-hurriya (the house of freedom). It was New York, in the larger neighborhood of Wall Street, that was the first home of the immigrants.
  

• I Wear Pants

  dwccrew;495031 wrote:Clearly you hate gorillas. And probably puppies too. I hate guerilla tactics, but not gorillas.

  
  Yeah dude, I'm the dumbass who can't spell here. Isadore is actually correct on that one.
• I Wear Pants

  isadore;495218 wrote:^^^
  I am not that fond of kittens, they turn into cats who are known servants of the devil.

  Obviously since you feel that kittens are servants of the devil and any rational person would do everything in their power to thwart those who serve Satan we can deduce that you kill every kitten that you can.
  
  What a monster.
• dwccrew

  

  I Wear Pants;495445 wrote:Obviously since you feel that kittens are servants of the devil and any rational person would do everything in their power to thwart those who serve Satan we can deduce that you kill every kitten that you can.
  
  What a monster.

  
  And if he doesn't kill as many kittens that he can he clearly serves at the hand of the devil.
• BoatShoes

  jhay78;495423 wrote:Interesting article from earlier in the week:
  
  http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/09/20/survey-shows-arabs-more-opposed-gz-mosque-american-media
  
  
  
  Obviously, not all Arabs are Muslims, but that's still an interesting stat.
  
  Another from the WSJ:
  
  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703743504575493711825224290.html

  
  Those are different questions; you can easily be an Islamophobe and yet tolerate islam. I mean, take yourself for example, you read websites that pander the idea that Islam comes from Satan and yet I'm sure you're perfectly tolerant of any Muslims you come across.
  
  (I kid, I kid. No ill will meant).