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Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

  • dwccrew
    jhay78;482170 wrote:Chrisitianity enjoyed its greatest spread its first 200 years, as a tiny minority religion which spun off of Judaism, in the middle of the Roman Empire. If you think they spread militarily then, then you're crazy. Regrettably, Christianity has engaged in religious wars, after they gained political power after Constantine in the Middle Ages. We'll agree to disagree on the percentage of violent spread done by Islam vs. Christianity.



    How quickly we forget . . .

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14846353/
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14848884/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg_lecture

    How am I crazy? All I stated is that both religions have used violence to spread each one's "message". I didn't specify as to which used more or if I believe one used more than the other, only that they both have engaged in violence.
  • dwccrew
    isadore;482187 wrote:Although violence has been committed by followers of both religions, there is a major difference. When Christians commit those acts, they are being not being Christ-like. Much of the violence committed by Muslims is very Muhammad-like. Islam’s violence began with its founder and make a joke of the claim that the religion is one of peace.
    The Taliban assassinated the President of Pakistan and many others
    They are being like the founder of their religion who approved the assassination of the opposition leader Kab ibn al-Ashraf.
    When Al Queda killed captured Americans they were being Muhammed-like because
    he had prisoners executed.
    When Al Queda robs banks to finance their terrorist campaigns they are being Muhammed-like because he robbed caravans to finance his campaigns.
    When Muslims threatened to drive the Jews out or kill them, they are being Muhammed-like. Of the three Jewish tribes in Arabia. He had two expelled. Ban u Quraiza were the third Jewish tribe. Muhammad had all 600 of the men executed and the women and children enslaved.
    When Bin Laden and his followers talk about found a world wide caliphate they are being Muhammed-like.
    He spread Islam by conquest in Arabia. His followers would continue this program, spreading the religion for the next two hundred years, capturing lands from Spain to Pakistan for Islam. The majority of populations centers for Islam were given the faith by force at that time.
    I am not aware of Jesus or his disciples practicing assassinations, executions, ethnic cleansing, genocide or spreading their faith by wars of conquest.
    Christ and his disciples died as martyrs, peaceful advocates for their faith.
    For the first 250 years of Christianity the religion was spread by proselytizing and example

    I am not saying I agree or disagree with your post, but could you please cite something that supports your statements? It is pretty worthless until you have something support your statements. And please cite it with a credible source, not some anti-Islamic website. Thanks, I look forward to reading about this, I enjoy history and would like to read about this side of Muhammed if it is true (which we'll never really know since there was no certain way to document things except by story that many years ago).
  • BGFalcons82
    Is this the same Islam that is misunderstood?

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-13/iran-ayatollahs-issue-fatwas-against-koran-burners.html

    Here's the take home...
    Sept. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Two Iranian grand ayatollahs issued fatwas calling for the killing of those who insult the Koran, including anyone who burns the Islamic holy book, the state-run Fars news agency reported.

    No one was specified in the decrees, which were issued by Nasser Makarem-Shirazi and Hossein Nouri-Hamedani in response to questions asked by student groups from universities in Tehran, Fars said. Such an action against any individual could only be carried out with the authorization of an Islamic religious judge, they said.

    “Undoubtedly, the blood of a person who burns the Koran should be shed,” Makarem-Shirazi was cited by Fars as saying. Everybody should “strongly condemn” such an act.

    Gee....I can read pretty well. Looks like death to Terry Jones has just been decreed. In old America, this is called a crime to call for someone's death.
  • jhay78
    Footwedge;458815 wrote:To suggest that even 10% of Muslims here and abroad want to globalize Sharia law IMO is laughable. I am sorry...but it is. The US Constitution has it's own guidelines...under our own sovereignty....and there is zero possibility of this happening. Zero. Yes I live on this planet...and I really don't understand the hatred towards the entire Muslim religions. You do know that the Old and New Testaments have the same verbiage on "killing the religious enemy" correct? I will post them if you'd like.

    Until you own up to that statement above, you have no credibility in what you posted here:
    Footwedge;482467 wrote:"It doesn't change the fact that the words of Islamic extremists are taken as representing all of Islam – the same way some Jewish extremists are now being portrayed as reflecting the entire Jewish community.

    It doesn't change the fact that the words of Islamic sacred texts are being taken out of context and warped to “prove” the point that all of Islam is violent and treacherous, the same way the Talmud is distorted to “prove” great Jewish conspiracies for world domination.

    It doesn't change the fact self-appointed protectors of Western civilization continue to mine the Koran for quotes they can use to prove Islamic perfidy – the same way the neo-Nazis and revisionists continue to scour Jewish texts for quotes they can warp to “protect” white Europeans from the growing Jewish “threat.”

    http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/political_insider/islam_hatred_and_anti_semitismconnect_dots
    Footwedge;482481 wrote:2 nuts? You're the one that must be kidding. The fundamentalist Christians collectively spew the exact same things regarding Islam. How many links do you want? To these people, they have a perverted and twisted view in intertwining the state, fundamenralist Christianity and wars...Machiavelli style...i.e. kill Islamics now...ask questions later.

    Hagee, Robertson, Dobson and a whole host of others. They spew and they hate...they spew and they hate. It's what they do and who they are....and they roll in the dough with their televangelical fear mongering....twisting and distorting Biblical texts that the end is near....with some calling Obama the anti-Christ....and the cash cow overfloweth thy coiffers.
    I think I've figured you out Footie- you're a classic Fundamentalistophobe.
    dwccrew;482819 wrote:How am I crazy? All I stated is that both religions have used violence to spread each one's "message". I didn't specify as to which used more or if I believe one used more than the other, only that they both have engaged in violence.

    Sorry I jumped on you a little there. You're right on the "both religions have used violence" issue. One contrast however (OK maybe two): the actions of each religions founder (Christ vs. Mohammed), with one of those two engaging in some form of religious wars; and the initial spread of each religion- one as a persecuted tiny minority in the Roman Empire, and one by the sword.
  • Footwedge
    jhay78;482977 wrote:Until you own up to that statement above, you have no credibility in what you posted here:
    What, in my post, do you what me to own up to? What I said is well documented.
    I think I've figured you out Footie- you're a classic Fundamentalistophobe.
    I don't fear fundamentalists at all.
  • Footwedge
    BGFalcons82;482941 wrote:Is this the same Islam that is misunderstood?

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-13/iran-ayatollahs-issue-fatwas-against-koran-burners.html

    Here's the take home...
    Sept. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Two Iranian grand ayatollahs issued fatwas calling for the killing of those who insult the Koran, including anyone who burns the Islamic holy book, the state-run Fars news agency reported.

    No one was specified in the decrees, which were issued by Nasser Makarem-Shirazi and Hossein Nouri-Hamedani in response to questions asked by student groups from universities in Tehran, Fars said. Such an action against any individual could only be carried out with the authorization of an Islamic religious judge, they said.

    “Undoubtedly, the blood of a person who burns the Koran should be shed,” Makarem-Shirazi was cited by Fars as saying. Everybody should “strongly condemn” such an act.

    Gee....I can read pretty well. Looks like death to Terry Jones has just been decreed. In old America, this is called a crime to call for someone's death.
    Then why wasn't the reverend Robertson not hauled in for assassination threats?
  • fish82
    Mikey Moore weighs in with a shocking position on the matter. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/09/13/michael_moore_build_mosque_right_on_ground_zero.html ;)

    I link this mostly out of surprise that he was still around...I thought he had pulled a Mr. Creosote already.
  • BGFalcons82
    fish82;483757 wrote:I link this mostly out of surprise that he was still around...I thought he had pulled a Mr. Creosote already.

    He had the wafer-thin mint, eh? :D
  • Writerbuckeye
    fish82;483757 wrote:Mikey Moore weighs in with a shocking position on the matter. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/09/13/michael_moore_build_mosque_right_on_ground_zero.html ;)

    I link this mostly out of surprise that he was still around...I thought he had pulled a Mr. Creosote already.

    They don't come much 'rounder than Mr. Moore. :)

    On another (related) matter...I was very pleased to see some of the networks carrying interviews with moderate Muslims calling to the NY Imam to back down and place the Islamic center elsewhere. They don't want more animosity created because of this move. They obviously "get it" even if the New York Imam does not. Which only tells me he has another agenda at work other than building bridges. Never believed that one from the get-go.
  • isadore
    dwccrew;482826 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with your post, but could you please cite something that supports your statements? It is pretty worthless until you have something support your statements. And please cite it with a credible source, not some anti-Islamic website. Thanks, I look forward to reading about this, I enjoy history and would like to read about this side of Muhammed if it is true (which we'll never really know since there was no certain way to document things except by story that many years ago).

    My original source was not from the internet but from a book, Muhammad and the Conquests of Islam by Francesco Gabrielli. The late Mr. Gabrielli was a highly respected scholar. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Gabrieli
    Since that is not available to you, just look at the Wikipedia biography of Muhammad
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
    It shows most of the events I used. They show Muhammad practicing ethnic cleansing, genocide, assassination and robbery to advance his cause. And he and his disciples spreading their faith by conquest. None of those actions are Christ-like in anyway.
    “Muhammad expelled from Medina the Banu Qaynuqa, one of three main Jewish tribes.[14]”

    ‘In the ensuing months, Muhammad led expeditions on tribes allied with Mecca and sent out a raid on a Meccan caravan.[116]”
    “When Muhammad heard of men massing with hostile intentions against Medina, he reacted with severity.[124] One example is the assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, a chieftain of the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir who had gone to Mecca and written poems that helped rouse the Meccans' grief, anger and desire for revenge after the Battle of Badr.[125]”
    “Around a year later, Muhammad expelled the Banu Nadir ( a Jewish tribe), from Medina.[126]”
    “The Banu Qurayza (a Jewish tribe) eventually surrendered and all the men, apart from a few who converted to Islam, were beheaded, while the women and children were enslaved.[131][132]”
    Muhammad would lead the conquest of much of Arabia and his followers would continue to spread Islam from Spain to Pakistan.
  • fish82
    Writerbuckeye;484016 wrote:They don't come much 'rounder than Mr. Moore. :)

    On another (related) matter...I was very pleased to see some of the networks carrying interviews with moderate Muslims calling to the NY Imam to back down and place the Islamic center elsewhere. They don't want more animosity created because of this move. They obviously "get it" even if the New York Imam does not. Which only tells me he has another agenda at work other than building bridges. Never believed that one from the get-go.
    Agreed! If Mr. Imam was really about "building bridges" and such, he would have elected to move his project the minute he saw that 70% of the country doesn't want it there. He's about pushing buttons. Nothing more, nothing less.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    Interesting, and I agree with most of it.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2266701/pagenum/all/
  • jmog
    Footwedge;482481 wrote:2 nuts? You're the one that must be kidding. The fundamentalist Christians collectively spew the exact same things regarding Islam. How many links do you want? To these people, they have a perverted and twisted view in intertwining the state, fundamenralist Christianity and wars...Machiavelli style...i.e. kill Islamics now...ask questions later.

    Hagee, Robertson, Dobson and a whole host of others. They spew and they hate...they spew and they hate. It's what they do and who they are....and they roll in the dough with their televangelical fear mongering....twisting and distorting Biblical texts that the end is near....with some calling Obama the anti-Christ....and the cash cow overfloweth thy coiffers.

    You are crazy.

    You are just as bad as the people saying all Muslims are radicals.
  • jmog
    Footie, I notice you are completely ignoring 2 of my posts.

    1. I directly quoted your original post discussing Jesus promoting violence. You say I'm twisting your words but yet I'm directly quoting you.
    2. You accused me of saying the Qu'ran was a book of hate, see the quote below...
    Originally Posted by Footwedge
    Yeah...I only have 25 chromosomes, Mr.Christian....who claims that the Qur'an is a book of hate....with contextual links to violence...but when is shown a similar verse in the Bible...it's just a "misunderstanding" of a little story.
    jmog wrote: If you can show ONE TIME I have said that the Qu'ran is a book of hate, I will shut up on this thread.

    I have not said one word about the Qu'ran, as I have read the whole thing and probably have a better understanding than some on here. However, I also realize there are many translations to the Qu'ran so I refrain from saying a word about it as the one translation I read could have been totally incorrect.


    You my friend are grasping at straws, find one time I said a word about the Qu'ran, good or bad, and I'll stop posting on this thread. If you can't, you owe me an apology.


    So please, show me where I even came close to saying that the Qu'ran was a book of hate. If you can not you owe me an apology.
  • Footwedge
    jmog;484885 wrote:You are crazy.

    You are just as bad as the people saying all Muslims are radicals.
    I draw my convictions on this subject from the brilliant writings of pastor Lawrence Vance. Sadly, Christian militarism are 2 words that should not be in the same sentence...but they are. They are in fact tenets by the majority of the fundamentalist Christians.

    Christians that "preach" that "God is on our side" as we massacre hundreds of thousands of God's children in foreign lands, on completely unnecessary and unwinnable wars just rub me the wrong way.

    As I stated above, on more than one occasion, the New Testament promotes peace, love, and human harmony. Why a specific segment/splinter of my religion want to place militarism and statism over the teachings of Jesus fuels my angst.

    Happy reading....

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance21.html
  • jmog
    Footwedge;485287 wrote:I draw my convictions on this subject from the brilliant writings of pastor Lawrence Vance. Sadly, Christian militarism are 2 words that should not be in the same sentence...but they are. They are in fact tenets by the majority of the fundamentalist Christians.

    Christians that "preach" that "God is on our side" as we massacre hundreds of thousands of God's children in foreign lands, on completely unnecessary and unwinnable wars just rub me the wrong way.

    As I stated above, on more than one occasion, the New Testament promotes peace, love, and human harmony. Why a specific segment/splinter of my religion want to place militarism and statism over the teachings of Jesus fuels my angst.

    Happy reading....

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance21.html

    Again you ignore my post, guess when you are proven wrong multiple times you just try to ignore the situation.

    You are also wrong that it isn't even CLOSE to a "majority" of fundamental literal Biblical believing Christians who have a "militaristic" view.

    You are dead wrong, and as you are the one asserting, you need to prove your case, that a majority believe this.

    Baptists, Presbyterian, Southern Baptists, Evangelicals, the Assemblies of God denominations, etc are all fundamental Christian denominations. You will definitely find some wackos, but not even CLOSE to a "majority".

    The basic beliefs of fundamentals are:

    The inerrancy of the Bible
    The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles, and the Creation account in Genesis.
    The Virgin Birth of Christ
    The bodily resurrection of Christ
    The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross
    The imminent return of Christ

    Nothing in there about being "militaristic".

    Educate yourself instead of believing that the couple wackos on TV represent all fundamental Bible believing Christians.
  • jhay78
    Footwedge;485287 wrote:I draw my convictions on this subject from the brilliant writings of pastor Lawrence Vance. Sadly, Christian militarism are 2 words that should not be in the same sentence...but they are. They are in fact tenets by the majority of the fundamentalist Christians.

    Link? Proof? Or just your usual demagoguery and name-calling? What if I said "Terror is in fact the tenet used by the majority of Muslims"? That would be just as ridiculous as what you just said.
    Christians that "preach" that "God is on our side" as we massacre hundreds of thousands of God's children in foreign lands, on completely unnecessary and unwinnable wars just rub me the wrong way.
    We know- you mention it in nearly every post on almost every thread.
    As I stated above, on more than one occasion, the New Testament promotes peace, love, and human harmony. Why a specific segment/splinter of my religion want to place militarism and statism over the teachings of Jesus fuels my angst.
    What a turnaround. You must have let someone else use your OC account when you said, "You know the Old and New Testaments both contain language on "killing the religious enemy" correct? I'll post them if you like."
  • jmog
    jhay78;485689 wrote: What a turnaround. You must have let someone else use your OC account when you said, "You know the Old and New Testaments both contain language on "killing the religious enemy" correct? I'll post them if you like."

    Lets not forget when he said...
    That's just 2 of the many quotes from the new testament...I can find many others...that promote utter violence against the "non believers".
  • Footwedge
    jmog;485684 wrote: You are also wrong that it isn't even CLOSE to a "majority" of fundamental literal Biblical believing Christians who have a "militaristic" view.

    You are dead wrong, and as you are the one asserting, you need to prove your case, that a majority believe this.

    .
    What proof sources do you want? Did you read the link I posted? How about dissecting the pastor's points in the link? Are you saying that he misrepresents the facts regarding bible quotes? Read the article and then tell me where Vance is wrong. What I stated is that the majority of fundamentalist Christians are nationalist and miltaristic. My statement is very accurate. That's not to say that ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS evoke those emotions. I never made that claim.

    So you say that I'm wrong. Whoopty shit. Again, what references do you need to prove it? Be specific. Because I have read plenty on the subject.
  • Footwedge
    The problem with you jmog, and you jajhay....you can't rationally accept the truth. That's your perogative to do just that. Just like up above, you don't have the stones to review the articles posted.

    ....The American Warmonger’s Bible
    by Laurence M. Vance

    Two tools of government propaganda used to get young men to kill, maim, and destroy for the state are nationalism and religion. Put both together and you have a deadly combination.

    Imperial Christians who equate patriotism with militarism and nationalism now have a book to guide them: The American Patriot’s Bible.

    The publisher of this new Bible is Thomas Nelson Publishers. Now, this publisher has recently published some excellent books (e.g., the works of Judge Napolitano), but The American Patriot’s Bible is certainly not one of them.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance209.html
  • Footwedge
    And this ditty on the Fundamentalist Christians....

    Published on Thursday, October 10, 2002 by the Inter Press Service
    Conservative Christians Biggest Backers of Iraq War
    by Jim Lobe

    WASHINGTON - Of the major religious groups in the United States, evangelical Christians are the biggest backers of Israel and Washington's planned war against Iraq, says a new survey released here Wednesday by a politically potent group of fundamentalist Christians and Jews.

    Some 69 percent of conservative Christians favor military action against Baghdad; 10 percentage points more than the U.S. adult population as a whole.

    And almost two-thirds of evangelical Christians say they support Israeli actions towards ''Palestinian terrorism'', compared with 54 percent of the general population, according to the survey, which was released by Stand For Israel, a six-month-old spin-off of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews (IFCJ).

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htm

    And there is more to come.
  • Footwedge
    It just so happened that, as I was putting the finishing touches on my review for Leadership Journal about a half dozen people almost simultaneously e-mailed newly released findings from the Pew research Center that reveal that evangelical Christians as a group have a significantly more positive view of torture than any other group in America. The group that has the lowest view of torture are non-church goers.

    One might wonder how the group that is supposed to be the most passionate about the Saviour who commanded us to “not resist an evil-doer” (Mt 5:39) became the group that is most in favor of torturing them. Having just read the Patriot’s Bible, I wasn’t the least bit surprised.

    http://www.gregboyd.org/uncategorized/the-patriots-bible-and-justified-torture
  • Glory Days
    This is getting as long as the "Boobs" thread... but less entertaining.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;486281 wrote:What proof sources do you want? Did you read the link I posted? How about dissecting the pastor's points in the link? Are you saying that he misrepresents the facts regarding bible quotes? Read the article and then tell me where Vance is wrong. What I stated is that the majority of fundamentalist Christians are nationalist and miltaristic. My statement is very accurate. That's not to say that ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS evoke those emotions. I never made that claim.

    So you say that I'm wrong. Whoopty shit. Again, what references do you need to prove it? Be specific. Because I have read plenty on the subject.

    Show proof that a "majority" of fundamentals are "militaristic" because I'm calling BS.


    I've gone to many different "fundamental" churches in my time and only a handful of idiots (I can count on 2 hands) were "militaristic". Your statement is about as retarded as saying a majority of Muslims are terrorists.

    You have no proof, show me any survey/poll/etc that shows this.

    I have already proven you wrong on 1 or 2 subjects on this thread that you are now ignoring, I'm sure you'll eventually ignore this too.

    I posted the exact common tennets/beliefs of fundamental denominations above, nothing in there suggests militaristic or nationalistic views. You pull a few radicals/radical statements from some TV wack jobs and assume its what all fundamental denominations must believe.

    In the same sense whatever Osama Bin Laden says in his taped messages must be what all Muslims believe correct?
  • jmog
    Footwedge;486289 wrote:The problem with you jmog, and you jajhay....you can't rationally accept the truth. That's your perogative to do just that. Just like up above, you don't have the stones to review the articles posted.

    ....The American Warmonger’s Bible
    by Laurence M. Vance

    Two tools of government propaganda used to get young men to kill, maim, and destroy for the state are nationalism and religion. Put both together and you have a deadly combination.

    Imperial Christians who equate patriotism with militarism and nationalism now have a book to guide them: The American Patriot’s Bible.

    The publisher of this new Bible is Thomas Nelson Publishers. Now, this publisher has recently published some excellent books (e.g., the works of Judge Napolitano), but The American Patriot’s Bible is certainly not one of them.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance209.html

    I have read the articles, and they are exactly what I expected, either some radical's views or someone lumping "most" fundamentals in with some radicals' quotes/views.

    Nothing new or special.

    Also, please tell me what "truth" i am not willing to accept? I have over and over shown where you were wrong on this thread, I'm still waiting on your vaunted "truth".

    The Patriot's Bible? Really? I, again, have actually gone to many many fundamentalist churches and no one has ever used or even referenced this "Bible".

    Anyone can write their own version of the "Bible", but that doesn't mean it is used by any churches.

    I would venture to bet that a majority, if not a super majority, of fundamentalist churches use either the KJV or NKJV.