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Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

  • Manhattan Buckeye
    tk421;481902 wrote:Fantasy football always. Who needs rights?

    Doesn't look like it is happening for Whitten, I guess I'll end up living in a Christianist Theocracy tomorrow.....
  • tk421
    Manhattan Buckeye;481927 wrote:Doesn't look like it is happening for Whitten, I guess I'll end up living in a Christianist Theocracy tomorrow.....

    Does that mean I have to marry a family member? :p That might be problematic.
  • dwccrew
    jhay78;481745 wrote:Sure they do- as long as Islam is in charge. Even Imam Rauf references Cordoba, Spain, where Christians, Jews, and Muslims "lived in peace and harmony"- he forgot to mention the militancy (some call it "religious wars") that spread Islam in the first place.

    Didn't know questioning Islam and the intentions of a $100 Mill facility next to Ground Zero is tantamount to "promoting religious wars". I guess I learn something new every day here . . . And btw I'm anxiously awaiting judgment day, when God will right the wrongs of history.

    Didn't Christianity spread through war as well? Both religions were spread through both war and in peaceful ways.
  • tk421
    Has there ever been a world wide major religion that has NOT been spread by war?
  • I Wear Pants
    Nope.
  • tk421
    Then what's the point of arguing about it?
  • I Wear Pants
    Not really a point. Though acting like either religion being discussed here or really any major religion is either innocent or maleviolent is pretty pointless as well. Religions are constructs of people and people are violent and mean bastards.
  • Footwedge
    To Jhay...since the quote feature does not work....

    Fundamentalist beliefs have morphed over the years. For example, Christ never spoke of being united with the state...any state. He never spoke of bigotry in hating all non believers...as you and Jmog have posted as such multiple times on this thread. Today's fundamentalists DO NOT PRACTICE the actual teachings of Christ. "Do unto others as you would want done to you" does not apply to fundy Christians. We had fundy Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez...because he is a left winged despot....despite the fact that Venezuela is no threat to our country. You have John Hagee, preaching death to all Muslims...citing the devil as the reason. A man who loves to preach soon to be coming of Armeggedon.

    As to your comment above....that the Islamic "non-believers", do you have the same vitriolic hate towards American Jews as well? They believe that Jesus was only a prophet too. Should all of us Christians wrap themselves up in bigoted hatred the same way? Especially given the fact that the vast majority of American Jews are very liberal in comparison to Muslim Americans. Should we not castigate the Jews as somehow being worse than Muslims?

    And in responce to your last paragraph on the founding fathers. As a whole, they weren't even Christians, let alone fundamentalist Christians. Most of the FF's were against any forms of religious persecutions, and believed that Americans should have the right to practice any relgion they saw fit. Most of them called themselves deists, a group of people who believed in a higher power, but refrained from citing any specific religion as their own.

    The founding fathers saw religious persecutions first hand and personally hated the deleterious effects that the Anglican Church had rendered on it's people perforce. No...our founding fathers were collectively the furthest thing from Christian fundamentalism.
  • Footwedge
    tk421;481962 wrote:Has there ever been a world wide major religion that has NOT been spread by war?
    Religions have had wars. But religious wars can and should be stopped. Today, most people that practice their religious faith do not want expansionary, needless wars. The Catholic church over the past 50 years has been against any and all religious wars...and denounce the wars in the Muslim world.

    You will never, ever hear a blanket statement from the Pope criticizing any other religions...including Islam. This is an admirable quality...and one of the reasons why I continue my life of faith as a Catholic.
  • Glory Days
    ...penis...
  • jhay78
    dwccrew;481959 wrote:Didn't Christianity spread through war as well? Both religions were spread through both war and in peaceful ways.

    Chrisitianity enjoyed its greatest spread its first 200 years, as a tiny minority religion which spun off of Judaism, in the middle of the Roman Empire. If you think they spread militarily then, then you're crazy. Regrettably, Christianity has engaged in religious wars, after they gained political power after Constantine in the Middle Ages. We'll agree to disagree on the percentage of violent spread done by Islam vs. Christianity.
    Footwedge;482111 wrote:Religions have had wars. But religious wars can and should be stopped. Today, most people that practice their religious faith do not want expansionary, needless wars. The Catholic church over the past 50 years has been against any and all religious wars...and denounce the wars in the Muslim world.

    You will never, ever hear a blanket statement from the Pope criticizing any other religions...including Islam. This is an admirable quality...and one of the reasons why I continue my life of faith as a Catholic.
    How quickly we forget . . .

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14846353/
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14848884/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg_lecture
  • isadore
    Although violence has been committed by followers of both religions, there is a major difference. When Christians commit those acts, they are being not being Christ-like. Much of the violence committed by Muslims is very Muhammad-like. Islam’s violence began with its founder and make a joke of the claim that the religion is one of peace.
    The Taliban assassinated the President of Pakistan and many others
    They are being like the founder of their religion who approved the assassination of the opposition leader Kab ibn al-Ashraf.
    When Al Queda killed captured Americans they were being Muhammed-like because
    he had prisoners executed.
    When Al Queda robs banks to finance their terrorist campaigns they are being Muhammed-like because he robbed caravans to finance his campaigns.
    When Muslims threatened to drive the Jews out or kill them, they are being Muhammed-like. Of the three Jewish tribes in Arabia. He had two expelled. Ban u Quraiza were the third Jewish tribe. Muhammad had all 600 of the men executed and the women and children enslaved.
    When Bin Laden and his followers talk about found a world wide caliphate they are being Muhammed-like.
    He spread Islam by conquest in Arabia. His followers would continue this program, spreading the religion for the next two hundred years, capturing lands from Spain to Pakistan for Islam. The majority of populations centers for Islam were given the faith by force at that time.
    I am not aware of Jesus or his disciples practicing assassinations, executions, ethnic cleansing, genocide or spreading their faith by wars of conquest.
    Christ and his disciples died as martyrs, peaceful advocates for their faith.
    For the first 250 years of Christianity the religion was spread by proselytizing and example
  • jmog
    Footwedge;481806 wrote:WRONG!!!! Fundamentalist Christians are not Catholic, Protestant nor Orthodaox. Far from it. Fundamentalist Christians believe in the absolutes only of Christianity. This is not practiced by the 3 Christian denominations that you have cited. Google it and learn something.

    And...fundamentalist Christians believe that America should be a theocracy, believe that the rapture is soon to come, and are extremely militaristic in their views. They don't come close to espousing the teachings of Christ...and are the primary reason that more and more Americans are becoming more and more negative towards the Christian faith.

    You can't be more wrong about what some "fundamentalist" believe.

    I consider myself to be a pretty fundamental Christian, I believe the rapture is soon to come, I believe in the literal translation of the Bible, I believe in the literal 7 days of creation, etc etc.

    I do not (and most fundamental Baptists I've ever met) believe that the US should be a theocracy neither are we "militaristic" in our views.

    I'm sorry, but you are just wrong, Baptist and many other protestant churches are most definitely considered very conservative/fundamental.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;481786 wrote:You are lying once again. LIE. Whenever I cited the story of Jesus going apeshit in the temple...ripping into the moneychangers...I asked the rhetorical question.."Was Jesus promoting violence"? I never stated that esus was promoting violence. Don't put words in my mouth...I don't care if this is the internet...there's no call for it.

    I swear you can not read, or choose to keep lying.

    I didn't say you that you said Jesus promoted violence in the temple throwing out the monedy changers.

    However, your exact quote of Mark and Luke, your first one on this topic most certainly, to anyone above a 2nd grade reading level, says that Jesus is "promoting violence".

    I've quoted over and over your post, I've said the exact number of the post, I don't know how many more directions you need or how much easier I can point it out to you. You 100% said Jesus promoted violence and changed your tune when you were proven wrong.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;481738 wrote:Because this is the internet, you can continue your cherade of twisting and manipulating posts of people that view the world differently than you do. I cited a quote in the Bible...which Jesus talks about "bringing them here, and have then killed". It matters not that the context was out of context....at least it doesn't to those that promote that the Qur'an is a book of violence.

    The problem is, if you read your post that I quoted, you didn't say that it was taken out of context, you directly said that Jesus was promoting violence.

    Those are two different things, I NEVER said that someone who didn't understand what they were reading couldn't take it out of context. I just corrected your assertation that Jesus was promoting it.

    At that point, once you realized you were wrong, you changed your tune to "see, it can be taken out of context".
  • jmog
    Footwedge;481771 wrote:Yeah...I only have 25 chromosomes, Mr.Christian....who claims that the Qur'an is a book of hate....with contextual links to violence...but when is shown a similar verse in the Bible...it's just a "misunderstanding" of a little story.

    If you can show ONE TIME I have said that the Qu'ran is a book of hate, I will shut up on this thread.

    I have not said one word about the Qu'ran, as I have read the whole thing and probably have a better understanding than some on here. However, I also realize there are many translations to the Qu'ran so I refrain from saying a word about it as the one translation I read could have been totally incorrect.


    You my friend are grasping at straws, find one time I said a word about the Qu'ran, good or bad, and I'll stop posting on this thread. If you can't, you owe me an apology.
  • jmog
    dwccrew;481959 wrote:Didn't Christianity spread through war as well? Both religions were spread through both war and in peaceful ways.

    There's no doubt Christianity has a bloody past, expecially with the Catholic Church, Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.
  • jmog
    tk421;481962 wrote:Has there ever been a world wide major religion that has NOT been spread by war?

    Maybe Buddhism? Hinduism?

    I don't know, just guessing.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;459177 wrote:6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

    7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

    http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

    That's just 2 of the many quotes from the new testament...I can find many others...that promote utter violence against the "non believers".


    I hate to keep doing this to footwedge, but the truth hurts. Here is your original post on the "promoting violence" part of this thread.

    Can you please point out the part here that says "see, it can be taken out of context"?

    Can you please explain how you DID NOT say that Jesus was promoting violence when your exact words were "That's just 2 of the many quotes from the new testament...I can find many others...that promote utter violence against the "non believers"?

    I'm sure you will either ignore this, only quote one line and then call me a liar again, or something. However, the truth remains and facts can't be changed.

    Please tell me what I am "twisting" when I am using your exact typed words.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;482071 wrote:To Jhay...since the quote feature does not work....

    Fundamentalist beliefs have morphed over the years. For example, Christ never spoke of being united with the state...any state. He never spoke of bigotry in hating all non believers...as you and Jmog have posted as such multiple times on this thread. Today's fundamentalists DO NOT PRACTICE the actual teachings of Christ. "Do unto others as you would want done to you" does not apply to fundy Christians. We had fundy Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez...because he is a left winged despot....despite the fact that Venezuela is no threat to our country. You have John Hagee, preaching death to all Muslims...citing the devil as the reason. A man who loves to preach soon to be coming of Armeggedon.

    As to your comment above....that the Islamic "non-believers", do you have the same vitriolic hate towards American Jews as well? They believe that Jesus was only a prophet too. Should all of us Christians wrap themselves up in bigoted hatred the same way? Especially given the fact that the vast majority of American Jews are very liberal in comparison to Muslim Americans. Should we not castigate the Jews as somehow being worse than Muslims?
    You are being just as bigoted/assuming as those of the Pat Robertson types. You are lumping everyone who is a fundamental literal Bible believing Christian in with the radical views of Pat Robertson and others. What's next? All fundamentals are like that church that protests soldier funerals?

    You are about as off as someone who says all Muslims are terrorists. Stop making broad stroking assumptions and your mind will be a little clearer when talking with Christians, you won't immediately throw up a cloud of hate in your mind blinding you from the fact that the Christian you are talking to could very well be an extemely loving/kind person who just happens to have a different view on life than you do.
  • jmog

    lol, I'm never one to bash the Catholic religion so I wasn't going to even look up if a pope had made comments, but its funny for Footy to make such a claim and be proven wrong just a few posts later.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    jhay78;481710 wrote:So what did we do to cause the "Death to America" slogan in Iran in 1979? I suppose that was our fault too. I'm not ignoring the consequences of recent wars, but I'm sick of the built-in excuses for radical Islam. Imam Rauf himself is going from "America was an accessory to 9/11" to "If we don't built this community center, the radicals will increase." How about the ideology of radical Islam sucks- and instead of lecturing the most tolerant, religiously open country the planet has ever seen, go build bridges in places where religious freedom and tolerance are trampled upon every single day by . . . wait for it . . . radical Islamists.

    It was one of many reasons. Ignoring it, ignores the complexities of the rise of radical Islam and the blowback of the 1990s.
  • jhay78
    Footwedge;482071 wrote:To Jhay...since the quote feature does not work....

    Fundamentalist beliefs have morphed over the years. For example, Christ never spoke of being united with the state...any state. He never spoke of bigotry in hating all non believers....

    Of course he didn't- but he absolutely claimed to be the only way to God/heaven. I guess that makes him a hate-mongering fundamentalist?
    as you and Jmog have posted as such multiple times on this thread.
    You have got to be kidding.
    Today's fundamentalists DO NOT PRACTICE the actual teachings of Christ. "Do unto others as you would want done to you" does not apply to fundy Christians. We had fundy Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez...because he is a left winged despot....despite the fact that Venezuela is no threat to our country. You have John Hagee, preaching death to all Muslims...citing the devil as the reason. A man who loves to preach soon to be coming of Armeggedon.
    Nice job- you picked two nuts out of hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people who take the Bible literally and believe Christ is the only way to heaven.
    As to your comment above....that the Islamic "non-believers", do you have the same vitriolic hate towards American Jews as well? They believe that Jesus was only a prophet too. Should all of us Christians wrap themselves up in bigoted hatred the same way? Especially given the fact that the vast majority of American Jews are very liberal in comparison to Muslim Americans. Should we not castigate the Jews as somehow being worse than Muslims?
    Again, you have got to be kidding. I quoted the exact words of Jesus, and one of his disciples, about him claiming to be the only way to heaven. Now I have "vitriolic hate" towards Jews and Muslims? I believe all religious people, despite my theological disagreements, can contribute to a civil society, but then again why am I defending myself? You'll believe what you want to believe.
    jmog;482257 wrote:If you can show ONE TIME I have said that the Qu'ran is a book of hate, I will shut up on this thread.

    I have not said one word about the Qu'ran, as I have read the whole thing and probably have a better understanding than some on here. However, I also realize there are many translations to the Qu'ran so I refrain from saying a word about it as the one translation I read could have been totally incorrect.


    You my friend are grasping at straws, find one time I said a word about the Qu'ran, good or bad, and I'll stop posting on this thread. If you can't, you owe me an apology.
    Good luck with that.
  • Footwedge
    "It doesn't change the fact that the words of Islamic extremists are taken as representing all of Islam – the same way some Jewish extremists are now being portrayed as reflecting the entire Jewish community.

    It doesn't change the fact that the words of Islamic sacred texts are being taken out of context and warped to “prove” the point that all of Islam is violent and treacherous, the same way the Talmud is distorted to “prove” great Jewish conspiracies for world domination.

    It doesn't change the fact self-appointed protectors of Western civilization continue to mine the Koran for quotes they can use to prove Islamic perfidy – the same way the neo-Nazis and revisionists continue to scour Jewish texts for quotes they can warp to “protect” white Europeans from the growing Jewish “threat.”

    http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/political_insider/islam_hatred_and_anti_semitismconnect_dots
  • Footwedge
    jhay78;482333 wrote:





    Nice job- you picked two nuts out of hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people who take the Bible literally and believe Christ is the only way to heaven..
    2 nuts? You're the one that must be kidding. The fundamentalist Christians collectively spew the exact same things regarding Islam. How many links do you want? To these people, they have a perverted and twisted view in intertwining the state, fundamenralist Christianity and wars...Machiavelli style...i.e. kill Islamics now...ask questions later.

    Hagee, Robertson, Dobson and a whole host of others. They spew and they hate...they spew and they hate. It's what they do and who they are....and they roll in the dough with their televangelical fear mongering....twisting and distorting Biblical texts that the end is near....with some calling Obama the anti-Christ....and the cash cow overfloweth thy coiffers.