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Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

  • Glory Days
    HitsRus;470993 wrote:Relating to this specific case is not appeasement. It's not about irrationality or being upset as much as it is about trauma. We are talking about events differing in magnitude exponentially.

    (reference to Glory days last post also)...you get upset when your neighbor's cat pees in your flower bed. You get traumatized when airplanes are crashing into buildings and skyscrapers are imploding and tumbling down. Dust, debris and death everywhere...right in your own backyard. Some understanding of that trauma, some allowance has to be made for that. You can't just sit up in the Ivory tower and say it's not rational, so F' you.
    Like it or not, whether it is fair or not, 'peaceful' Islam is going to take some blowback from what it's radical members did in their name. It might be easier if the perpetrators were an isolated band in some remote area, but they are not. They are a well funded, organized, significant percentage of Islam...and they still threaten us. In general, since the attack on the Twin Towers, the country has been pretty much tolerant and understanding of the Islamic faith...people have controlled their base instincts to lash out. But there is an undercurrent of distrust for the reasons listed above. It is best that the worst instincts of mankind not be provoked.
    It might not be fair, it might not be right,...but treading carefully is the prudent thing to do.

    I’ve been blown up and have had some very close people killed by muslims. No, I didn’t watch the towers fall in person, but I have been attacked by radical muslims. Yet, I know this mosque in NY has nothing to do with any of that and never will. Like I said before, why is a mosque so much more dangerous than any other type of muslim establishment near ground zero? Why specifically a mosque and not just muslims in general, why should they be let near ground zero?

    And my last post wasn’t serious, just making a point.
  • CenterBHSFan
    Better be careful, Heretic, it will start leaking over in Serious Business that you are actually pretty smart! ;)
  • Footwedge
    Heretic;471302 wrote:As a non-religious person who thinks a lot of things would be better if people of all beliefs just focused on positive parables and common sense teachings and not their particular religion itself,
    Why is it that a non religious person like Heretic can hit the nail on the head here....and so many religious people have such a hard time extrapolating what the true meaning behind religion?
  • I Wear Pants
    CenterBHSFan;471314 wrote:Better be careful, Heretic, it will start leaking over in Serious Business that you are actually pretty smart! ;)
    Pssh. I doubt that.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;471317 wrote:Why is it that a non religious person like Heretic can hit the nail on the head here....and so many religious people have such a hard time extrapolating what the true meaning behind religion?

    Amazing is that you keep ignoring the fact that jhay and I completely showed you were either lying or ignorant with regards to your first posts about the NT and promoting violence.
  • Footwedge
    jmog;471378 wrote:Amazing is that you keep ignoring the fact that jhay and I completely showed you were either lying or ignorant with regards to your first posts about the NT and promoting violence.
    Since you continue to distort what was said in that exchange, I would suggest that you turn the page.

    Why don't you respond to the post at hand....which you never like to do, versus bringing up something said 400 posts ago? Again, turn the page, dude.
  • jhay78
    jmog;471378 wrote:Amazing is that you keep ignoring the fact that jhay and I completely showed you were either lying or ignorant with regards to your first posts about the NT and promoting violence.
    Footwedge;471387 wrote:Since you continue to distort what was said in that exchange, I would suggest that you turn the page.

    Why don't you respond to the post at hand....which you never like to do, versus bringing up something said 400 posts ago? Again, turn the page, dude.

    He's right jmog- stop embarassing the guy and turn the page.

    Footwedge, at least acknowledge you got owned in posts #448 and #454. As for the topic at hand, I don't believe anyone in this thread brought up the Bible & violence until you did 400 posts ago.
  • Heretic
    CenterBHSFan;471314 wrote:Better be careful, Heretic, it will start leaking over in Serious Business that you are actually pretty smart! ;)

    I left 'em an out, though. Look at the time of that post. They can say that the 5 a.m. hour was when I reached a moment of true drunken clarity where I was able to collect some sort of mental karma that would be impossible for me to reach under any remotely normal situation.
  • Footwedge
    jhay78;471467 wrote:He's right jmog- stop embarassing the guy and turn the page.

    Footwedge, at least acknowledge you got owned in posts #448 and #454. As for the topic at hand, I don't believe anyone in this thread brought up the Bible & violence until you did 400 posts ago.

    LOL. Is this tag team wrestling?
  • Footwedge
    Jhay said...

    "There are certainly examples of religious wars recorded in the Old Testament carried out by the Israelites under Joshua (and later Samuel/Saul), but you can read the New Testament 1000 times forwards, backwards, in Greek, English, or whatever, and you won't find a single example of Jesus or one of his apostles instructing their followers to kill religious enemies or conduct religious wars on unbelievers. You will find mutiple verses stating just the opposite."

    "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19, 27.

    End of discussion jhay...and jmog.
  • jhay78
    Footwedge;471726 wrote:Jhay said...

    "There are certainly examples of religious wars recorded in the Old Testament carried out by the Israelites under Joshua (and later Samuel/Saul), but you can read the New Testament 1000 times forwards, backwards, in Greek, English, or whatever, and you won't find a single example of Jesus or one of his apostles instructing their followers to kill religious enemies or conduct religious wars on unbelievers. You will find mutiple verses stating just the opposite."

    "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19, 27.

    End of discussion jhay...and jmog.
    That verse was explained about 10 times by 10 different people: a parable (you know, a story, a narrative) told by Jesus about a nobleman who becomes king, and orders the execution of those who resisted his rule. Missing from that verse is any statement by Jesus saying, "Attention disciples- go and do likewise!" Again (for the 999th time), it was a story which indeed referred to violence, but was not an endorsement or an imperative. If you read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), you find:

    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (Matt. 5:9)

    "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" (Matt. 5:39)

    "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matt. 5:44)

    That doesn't sound like someone who endorses violence. But you're right- end of discussion. There doesn't seem to be much progress being made on this topic.
  • Ankle Breaker
    "To the Muslim community living in America, I say--They will look like you, they will talk like you, they will live like you. If we are to protect ourselves from them, how do we determine who is who? To ignore the danger is foolish. I don't want to falsely accuse or limit anyone's freedoms, but I don't want to be a victim either. You are Americans. Help us eradicate this cancer among us."

    Now substitute the term "unscrupulous banker", "pedophile", or "corrupt politician" for Muslim and repeat the question.

    This is not a problem the average peace-loving American has created. The concern of being the victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time is very real to anyone who has any common sense whatsoever.
  • believer
    jhay78;472049 wrote:That verse was explained about 10 times by 10 different people: a parable (you know, a story, a narrative) told by Jesus about a nobleman who becomes king, and orders the execution of those who resisted his rule. Missing from that verse is any statement by Jesus saying, "Attention disciples- go and do likewise!" Again (for the 999th time), it was a story which indeed referred to violence, but was not an endorsement or an imperative.
    Quite correct. Jesus was using a story to help people understand his point. He was not implying that his followers kill non-believers. However, I believe he was indeed giving a subtle warning to non-believers of the eventual consequences of not accepting him as Lord and Savior. When the time comes, GOD will be be the judge of that...not men.
  • believer
    est
  • BoatShoes
    But I think the point is that an evil terrorist or a disenfranchised poor afghan, not understanding the context of Christ's words as a parable, might be able to use the plain language on its face as justification for such acts......and therefore, since some of us may not understand the context of passages of the Koran, we ought to take the plain language calling for death to the infidels to be, indeed, calling for the death of the infidels.
  • Footwedge
    jhay78;472049 wrote:That verse was explained about 10 times by 10 different people: a parable (you know, a story, a narrative) told by Jesus about a nobleman who becomes king, and orders the execution of those who resisted his rule. Missing from that verse is any statement by Jesus saying, "Attention disciples- go and do likewise!" Again (for the 999th time), it was a story which indeed referred to violence, but was not an endorsement or an imperative. If you read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), you find:
    And for 999th time....this is a perfect example how a Bible quote can be misinterpreted....just as you and millions others have done towards similar verses in the Qur'an.
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (Matt. 5:9)

    "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" (Matt. 5:39)

    "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matt. 5:44)

    That doesn't sound like someone who endorses violence. But you're right- end of discussion. There doesn't seem to be much progress being made on this topic.
    I am so glad that you posted these. For every beatitude or other verses of peace and love found in the Bible, a myriad of similar statements can be found in the Qur'an. Just as many. Ptowne sourced a few of these earlier on this thread.

    But as long as some of my my Christian brethren continue to bastardize these teachings...such as what fundamentalist preachers like Pat Dobson and John Hagee do on their TV shows...the nonsensical "my God is greater than your God, and the my religion is greater than your religion", these important teachings will continue to be shelved.

    Islam countries have their religious extremists...unfortunately America has their own religious extremists....and each group is guilty in parlaying their respective religions into becoming military statists, and by doing so, perversely circumvent some of God's commandments and other rules.
  • believer
    Footwedge;472954 wrote:Islam countries have their religious extremists...unfortunately America has their own religious extremists....and each group is guilty in parlaying their respective religions into becoming military statists, and by doing so, perversely circumvent some of God's commandments and other rules.
    True but you have to admit that hijacking airliners full of innocent people and flying those aircraft at several hundred miles per hour into skyscrapers full of innocent people is a uniquely radical Islam domain. After all, wouldn't you die willingly too if you believe Allah has promised you virgins in paradise for killing the infidel?

    The God of Abraham must reserve that special little privilege for radical male Muslims alone. I've always wondered what female Islamic suicide bombers get in the after-life for strapping on IED's and boarding Israeli buses full of innocent people? I'm thinking they get 72 well-hung dudes but they must remain veiled at all times.

    Religion of peace or religion of piece?

    Allah akbar
  • ptown_trojans_1
    believer;472983 wrote:True but you have to admit that hijacking airliners full of innocent people and flying those aircraft at several hundred miles per hour into skyscrapers full of innocent people is a uniquely radical Islam domain. After all, wouldn't you die willingly too if you believe Allah has promised you virgins in paradise for killing the infidel?

    The God of Abraham must reserve that special little privilege for radical male Muslims alone. I've always wondered what female Islamic suicide bombers get in the after-life for strapping on IED's and boarding Israeli buses full of innocent people? I'm thinking they get 72 well-hung dudes but they must remain veiled at all times.

    Religion of peace or religion of piece?

    Allah akbar


    God is Great isn't he?
    That is the translation of Allahu Akbar, and even Christians in the region use it.


    We agree to disagree as to the notion that you link radicals to Islam and other, me included, say that is not Islam but a radical interpretation of the religion.
  • believer
    ptown_trojans_1;473143 wrote:We agree to disagree as to the notion that you link radicals to Islam and other, me included, say that is not Islam but a radical interpretation of the religion.
    I think I've been very careful to say "radical Islam" in my posts. And while I've also admitted that radical Islam is a minority faction of their religion, I've been equally critical of majority Islam's seeming inability to get its radical element under control. The fact that they cannot speaks volumes about which element truly controls the religion of peace.

    Yes God is Great. If radical Islam worships the same God I worship, I have a hunch God is not very happy with some of his children killing his other children simply because they choose to have a different style of relationship with Him.

    Somehow I doubt He has 72 virgins waiting in paradise for his misguided martyrs.
  • Ankle Breaker
    Yeah, the 72 virgin thing along with having multiple wives here on earth and the treatment of women in general has perversion and all sorts of issues surrounding that whole subject.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;471387 wrote:Since you continue to distort what was said in that exchange, I would suggest that you turn the page.

    Why don't you respond to the post at hand....which you never like to do, versus bringing up something said 400 posts ago? Again, turn the page, dude.

    Can you please explain what I have distorted since I have directly quoted all of the posts in question? I have not changed any of the text, you are the one that keeps changing your story after the fact.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;471726 wrote:Jhay said...

    "There are certainly examples of religious wars recorded in the Old Testament carried out by the Israelites under Joshua (and later Samuel/Saul), but you can read the New Testament 1000 times forwards, backwards, in Greek, English, or whatever, and you won't find a single example of Jesus or one of his apostles instructing their followers to kill religious enemies or conduct religious wars on unbelievers. You will find mutiple verses stating just the opposite."

    "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19, 27.

    End of discussion jhay...and jmog.

    Not end of discussion, I already explained to you Luke 19, that was not Jesus saying "kill those who won't be under me", it was Jesus telling a long story/parable about a ruthless ruler who at the end said "bring them here and kill them".

    If I was telling a story about Footwedge killing a bunch of people and quoting him at one point saying "bring them here and let me kill them", that does NOT mean that me (jmog) is saying to please have them killed.

    Anyone with a 3rd grade reading comprehension level understands this.

    Are you sure you aren't missing a chromosome?
  • jmog
    Footwedge;472954 wrote:And for 999th time....this is a perfect example how a Bible quote can be misinterpreted....just as you and millions others have done towards similar verses in the Qur'an.



    .
    The problem is Footy, you originally said that Jesus PROMOTED violence with this quote, you did NOT say that this quote, while not promoting violence, could easily be taken out of context.

    Your statement was 100% false, and you aren't willing to admit it.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;472954 wrote:
    But as long as some of my my Christian brethren continue to bastardize these teachings...such as what fundamentalist preachers like Pat Dobson and John Hagee do on their TV shows...the nonsensical "my God is greater than your God, and the my religion is greater than your religion", these important teachings will continue to be shelved.
    You won't get any argument from me here, if there is one thing I can't stand its the hypocracy of the TV evangelists and their distortion of the Biblical truths. I won't name any names as some (few) are actually good preachers/men, but quite a few (most) on TV are frauds.
  • fish82
    I could be wrong....but this thread may have jumped the shark. :)