Should there be separate championship for public and private schools?
-
Rocket08
You made some sense until you said " publics cant be like that because they cant LIMIT their numbers."redstreak one wrote: I could if I could take around 30 percent of my population off the books!~ LOL Most of the problems Piketon faces with discipline issues comes from a small percentage of the overall population! Just go look at Jasper Elementary, the elementary for Piketon schools and their kindergarten classes. Parents are allowed to choose who they want for a teacher, ranked 1st to 3rd. Being that I know most of the teachers, ranking them was easy, we put our son in a class with other students who were his friends and colleagues of me and his mother. There are 6 classes, do you think every parent was as informed as me and my wife, no! What classes do you think have the best and brighest with the fewest problems! LOL
If you could take 2 of those classes away, I guarantee you the kids left over would be bright, athletic, courteous and well motivated! Thats a private school! LOL
I understand why a parent would want to send their kid to a school like Mooney, or Desales! Great academics and athletics with a good moral social scene! What I am saying is that publics cant be like that because they cant LIMIT their numbers.
You won't find a Parocial High School in Ohio that "limits" their number for the sake of athletics. Some (all bigger) limit due to size restrictions of their buildings, but that doesn't exist in the smaller schools DIII and down) and if you think they do, you're nuts -
catchr22Rocket--can't completely agree with you. If a school, in a sport that contributes financially, would be forced to move 1 division higher and possibly not be as successful, I can imagine them "managing" their enrollment. Don't know if it happens, but I could understand it!!
-
redstreak one
Rocket, you do realize that the majority of Americans are not living in the lap of luxury dont you? LOL
You do realize I never said for the sake of Athletics! I said, and pay close attention please, that TUITION in and of itself limits enrollment in private/parochial schools. Do you understand that? If not, then I am not wasting my breath on you. I am starting to question that excellent education by private schools by some on here! -
GoChiefs
LOL..jealous Massillon fan? Too funny. If you think Tiger fans have anything to be jealous about..you are sadly mistaken. -
Rocket08
ReallyGoChiefs wrote: LOL..jealous Massillon fan? Too funny. If you think Tiger fans have anything to be jealous about..you are sadly mistaken.
Here's what their "tradition" is:
The following is the top 50 teams in playoff history updated through the 2009 season using the formula from the OHSFCA. Left to right it lists the school, (playoff record), (# of playoff appearances), (# of state championships) and the number of points using the OHSFCA formula which is 1 point per playoff appearance, 2 points per playoff victory and 3 points per playoff championship.
1) Newark Catholic (62-22) (30) (8) 178
2) Cleveland St. Ignatius (56-12) (22) (10) 164
3) Youngstown Cardinal Mooney (49-16) (23) (7) 142
4) Columbus DeSales (47-17) (20) (3) 123
5) Steubenville (45-19) (22) (3) 121
6) Versailles (43-10) (16) (6) 120
7) Mogadore (43-20) (23) (3) 118
8) Cincinnati Moeller (34-21) (28) (7) 117
9) St. Henry (41-8) (14) (6) 114
10) Ironton (40-25) (27) (2) 113
11) Delphos St. John's (39-7) (12) (5) 105
12) Cleveland Benedictine (34-10) (16) (6) 102
13) Maria Stein Marion Local (37-8) (12) (4) 98
14) Coldwater (37-13) (15) (2) 95
15) Canton McKinley (33-15) (18) (3) 93
16) Columbus Watterson (34-19) (20) (1) 91
17) Amanda Clearcreek (33-14) (16) (2) 88
18) Mentor Lake Catholic (30-14) (17) (3) 86
19) Germantown Valley View (30-13) (16) (3) 85
20) Youngstown Ursuline (29-12) (15) (3) 82
21) Cincinnati St. Xavier (28-14) (16) (2) 78
22) Kettering Alter (27-13) (15) (2) 75
Marion Pleasant (24-15) (18) (3) 75
24) Orrville (25-19) (20) (1) 73
Warren JFK (26-17) (18) (1) 73
26) Cincinnati Elder (26-12) (14) (2) 72
Norwalk St. Paul (28-12) (13) (1) 72
28) Akron Buchtel (25-10) (12) (2) 68
Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary (21-10) 14) (4) 68
Massillon (25-18) (18) (0) 68
31) Cincinnati Colerain (26-11) (12) (1) 67*
Wheelersburg (21-21) (22) (1) 67
33) St. Marys Memorial (20-12) (15) (3) 64
34) Liberty Center (23-13) (14) (1) 63
35) Cuyahoga Falls Walsh Jesuit (22-14) (15) (1) 62
Newark Licking Valley (25-12) (12) (0) 62
37) Cincinnati Princeton (19-11) (14) (3) 61
38) Avon Lake (21-14) (15) (1) 60
Hilliard Davidson (22-8) (10) (2) 60
40) Chardon (22-10) (11) (1) 58
Fostoria (19-12) (14) (2) 58
42) Hamilton Badin (18-17) (18) (1) 57
43) Dola Hardin Northern (20-11) (12) (1) 55
44) Hamler Patrick Henry (19-11) (12) (1) 53
Piqua (20-9) (10) (1) 53
Toledo St. Francis (17-11) (13) (2) 53
47) Elyria Catholic (15-10) (13) (3) 52
48) Solon (18-15) (15) (0) 51
49) C.A.P.E. (16-6 (9) (3) 50
Columbus Brookhaven (17-12) (13) (1) 50
This is the coaches association ranking of playoff results since the playoffs started nearly 40 years ago.
Massillon is a solid 28th (tie) placed neatly between Akron Buchtel and Wheelersburg.
That's their "tradition" Not winning state, but living in the past 40 some years ago.
They have plenty to be jealous of. You going to tell me they wouldn't go nuts with just 1 OHSAA Title, won on their field instead of watching 3 other teams do it every year
please -
Rocket08
You are out of your mind.catchr22 wrote: Rocket--can't completely agree with you. If a school, in a sport that contributes financially, would be forced to move 1 division higher and possibly not be as successful, I can imagine them "managing" their enrollment. Don't know if it happens, but I could understand it!!
I know that this is hard for you to understand, but Parochial Schools mission is to supply a religious education, not win football games. Some excel, but that's not what they're about. If you really believe that you're nuts too. -
Rocket08
Your inference was very clear. Here's what you said:redstreak one wrote: Rocket, you do realize that the majority of Americans are not living in the lap of luxury dont you? LOL
You do realize I never said for the sake of Athletics! I said, and pay close attention please, that TUITION in and of itself limits enrollment in private/parochial schools. Do you understand that? If not, then I am not wasting my breath on you. I am starting to question that excellent education by private schools by some on here!
"I understand why a parent would want to send their kid to a school like Mooney, or Desales! Great academics and athletics with a good moral social scene! What I am saying is that public's cant be like that because they cant LIMIT their numbers."
Hence, the privates can???
These schools only "limit" their numbers if the buildings aren't big enough. And those are the DI's and DII's They do everything they can to get more students. Parochial Schools close every year, they beg for students.
You either are truly ignorant of the way these schools run, and why they exist, or you're just another public school apologist who will say anything to make a point, no matter how inane it is. -
GoChiefs
Whether you want to recognize it or not..they have 22 Championships..one of the most storied high school programs and one of the most well known high school football teams in the nation..so no..they have absolutely nothing to be jealous of. But I'm not getting into this argument with you. By most of your posts..you have nothing to do but drag down the Tiger program any chance you think you can. To me..that's a sign of jealousy. :rolleyes:
-
catchr22Rocket--you really have a "hair trigger"!!! By the way, it may be hard for you to believe, but I am far from NUTS!!! In addition, I am not out of my mind. I am intimately aware of the mission of a parochial school. However, every private school is NOT parochial!!! In an idealistic society, to be sure, you are absolutely correct in surmising this would never happen. In the real world, I can imagine that it might happen!! Before you get on your rocket and start castigating me or anyone else, you better know what you are talking about!!! HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
-
skank
These are just numbers according to you, you know, kind of like the numbers I posted, solid numbers that prove privates have distinct advantages.Rocket08 wrote:
ReallyGoChiefs wrote: LOL..jealous Massillon fan? Too funny. If you think Tiger fans have anything to be jealous about..you are sadly mistaken.
Here's what their "tradition" is:
The following is the top 50 teams in playoff history updated through the 2009 season using the formula from the OHSFCA. Left to right it lists the school, (playoff record), (# of playoff appearances), (# of state championships) and the number of points using the OHSFCA formula which is 1 point per playoff appearance, 2 points per playoff victory and 3 points per playoff championship.
1) Newark Catholic (62-22) (30) (8) 178
2) Cleveland St. Ignatius (56-12) (22) (10) 164
3) Youngstown Cardinal Mooney (49-16) (23) (7) 142
4) Columbus DeSales (47-17) (20) (3) 123
5) Steubenville (45-19) (22) (3) 121
6) Versailles (43-10) (16) (6) 120
7) Mogadore (43-20) (23) (3) 118
8) Cincinnati Moeller (34-21) (28) (7) 117
9) St. Henry (41-8) (14) (6) 114
10) Ironton (40-25) (27) (2) 113
11) Delphos St. John's (39-7) (12) (5) 105
12) Cleveland Benedictine (34-10) (16) (6) 102
13) Maria Stein Marion Local (37-8) (12) (4) 98
14) Coldwater (37-13) (15) (2) 95
15) Canton McKinley (33-15) (18) (3) 93
16) Columbus Watterson (34-19) (20) (1) 91
17) Amanda Clearcreek (33-14) (16) (2) 88
18) Mentor Lake Catholic (30-14) (17) (3) 86
19) Germantown Valley View (30-13) (16) (3) 85
20) Youngstown Ursuline (29-12) (15) (3) 82
21) Cincinnati St. Xavier (28-14) (16) (2) 78
22) Kettering Alter (27-13) (15) (2) 75
Marion Pleasant (24-15) (18) (3) 75
24) Orrville (25-19) (20) (1) 73
Warren JFK (26-17) (18) (1) 73
26) Cincinnati Elder (26-12) (14) (2) 72
Norwalk St. Paul (28-12) (13) (1) 72
28) Akron Buchtel (25-10) (12) (2) 68
Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary (21-10) 14) (4) 68
Massillon (25-18) (18) (0) 68
31) Cincinnati Colerain (26-11) (12) (1) 67*
Wheelersburg (21-21) (22) (1) 67
33) St. Marys Memorial (20-12) (15) (3) 64
34) Liberty Center (23-13) (14) (1) 63
35) Cuyahoga Falls Walsh Jesuit (22-14) (15) (1) 62
Newark Licking Valley (25-12) (12) (0) 62
37) Cincinnati Princeton (19-11) (14) (3) 61
38) Avon Lake (21-14) (15) (1) 60
Hilliard Davidson (22-8) (10) (2) 60
40) Chardon (22-10) (11) (1) 58
Fostoria (19-12) (14) (2) 58
42) Hamilton Badin (18-17) (18) (1) 57
43) Dola Hardin Northern (20-11) (12) (1) 55
44) Hamler Patrick Henry (19-11) (12) (1) 53
Piqua (20-9) (10) (1) 53
Toledo St. Francis (17-11) (13) (2) 53
47) Elyria Catholic (15-10) (13) (3) 52
48) Solon (18-15) (15) (0) 51
49) C.A.P.E. (16-6 (9) (3) 50
Columbus Brookhaven (17-12) (13) (1) 50
This is the coaches association ranking of playoff results since the playoffs started nearly 40 years ago.
Massillon is a solid 28th (tie) placed neatly between Akron Buchtel and Wheelersburg.
That's their "tradition" Not winning state, but living in the past 40 some years ago.
They have plenty to be jealous of. You going to tell me they wouldn't go nuts with just 1 OHSAA Title, won on their field instead of watching 3 other teams do it every year
please
Look at the top 4, what do they have in common? Look at #8, Moeller, a great program, but a program that started in I believe 1963.
Look at Ignatius, another great program, but where were they before 1988? When Chuck Kyle got in there, he decided to use the advantages afforded to them which were not afforded to ALL schools, and it paid off. -
catchr22coaches, like families, will migrate to the environment that is conducive to the furtherance of their careers!!!!
-
skank
I like what the publics are doing in starting to rethink playing the privates, I mean, after all, if I show up at a knife fight, and the other guy has a gun....and it's all within the rules? I think I would stop showing up.
-
redstreak one
They limit enrollment by TUITION, you are putting words in my mouth by trying to say I mean they keep kids from enrolling to keep numbers low for sports. While in reality, they are limiting by having a TUITION, which not everyone can afford and that not everyone will be helped by said private/parochial school to attend that school! Keep your head in the sand, probably makes the world a better looking place without you anyway!
-
Sykotyk
redstreak one, I understand. You have to remember, it's like arguing with a brick wall, it'll only make you look like a fool.
Rocket: If a student gets straight E's, has delinquency issues, tardiness, back talks to teachers, etc. How long do you think they'll last at a private school before being purged? The public school is required by law to take that student and try to educate them no matter how difficult.
Thereby, private school just limited their enrollment, while the public cannot.
Sykotyk -
redstreak one
The national average for people living in poverty is 15%. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-poverty-level-in-the-united-states.htm
That means around 15% are just above the poverty line. So nearly 30% probably cant afford tuition to a private/parochial school without assistance. Rocket08, would a private/parochial take everyone that walks through their doors from that 30%? Easy answer, no so they are LIMITING their enrollment! No wonder people want a multiplier, if you took two schools with equal number of boys enrollment, say 300 which would make them D III in football, and multiplied the private/parochials by 30 percent, gives you 90 more boys actually which should be in your school making them now D II. Remember, publics by law have to take that 30%.
Before you come back after me with, "no private school would ever deny tuition, they arent denying tuition, they just arent giving tuition to those that CANT AFFORD IT!" -
catchr22redstreak--I find your argument both reasonable and appropriate at the higher levels. I find it less palatable at the lower levels, where, I feel, there is more concern for solvency and less for athletics. JMHO!!!
-
redstreak one
Catchr22, thats my problem that some schools just wont fit under a broad multiplier system. Unfortunately many public schools arent helping their case by using the open enrollment to their benefit either! lol You are indeed a pleasure to debate with, you have the ability to see both sides and I appreciate that. Like I said, only a small percentage of private/parochials are benefitting from this discrepencancy, heres to hoping those higher up can use their superior intellect and try to even the playing field for all.
-
catchr22Just for giggles--why not create two classes with 3 divisions each. Under this structure, would it be easier to formulate regualtions that fit Class A-the top 3 divisions that come from preponderantly metroplitan areas and Class B with the lower 3 divisions that are preponderantly from suburban and rural areas? While you will have a small amount of extremes in the metro area (small schools in large population areas), you will also have a few large schools that are not in metro areas. My mind tells me that you could fit regulations easier to the 2 different classes than you could to the 6 different divisions as it applies now. As most everyone knows Indiana has an "open" state tournament. Not going that far, but you could have 1 extra game that would allow the class winners to play and have a "true" state champion!!!
-
Sykotyk
Exactly.redstreak one wrote: Catchr22, thats my problem that some schools just wont fit under a broad multiplier system. Unfortunately many public schools arent helping their case by using the open enrollment to their benefit either! lol You are indeed a pleasure to debate with, you have the ability to see both sides and I appreciate that. Like I said, only a small percentage of private/parochials are benefitting from this discrepencancy, heres to hoping those higher up can use their superior intellect and try to even the playing field for all.
However, the lower level D1 schools would get bumped down to D2 when more lower private schools get moved up to D1. Same with lower divisions.
If 5 privates move up from D3 to D2, that means 5 publics, on average, would move down to D3 from D2.
Sykotyk -
Al Bundy
Out of those 90 kids that you use in your example, there is a good chance there are some football players, so the public school is picking up football players there too. If you want to open up private schools to more people, vouchers are simple solution. Allow families to use their tax money to send their children to the school that can best meet their needs.redstreak one wrote: The national average for people living in poverty is 15%. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-poverty-level-in-the-united-states.htm
That means around 15% are just above the poverty line. So nearly 30% probably cant afford tuition to a private/parochial school without assistance. Rocket08, would a private/parochial take everyone that walks through their doors from that 30%? Easy answer, no so they are LIMITING their enrollment! No wonder people want a multiplier, if you took two schools with equal number of boys enrollment, say 300 which would make them D III in football, and multiplied the private/parochials by 30 percent, gives you 90 more boys actually which should be in your school making them now D II. Remember, publics by law have to take that 30%.
Before you come back after me with, "no private school would ever deny tuition, they arent denying tuition, they just arent giving tuition to those that CANT AFFORD IT!" -
redstreak one
Vouchers, yes of course the state using tax money to send a kid to private school. Brilliant, why didnt I think of that, oh thats right the private/parochials STILL wouldnt accept them all! I can see it now, hi welcome to "Insert private/parochial school name here!" Yeah I want to go to school and I have a voucher. Wonderful, do you have all the paper work? Yeah here, hmmmm lets see .54 GPA, suspended from public school for a total of 34 days for fighting, smoking, cursing staff and students. Yep, everything checks out, thanks for applying dont let the door hit you on the way out! LOL
-
justcompeteThese arguments can't be validated. First, there is not a Columbus Catholic H.S. that recruites. Second, the two most successful schools (Watterson & DeSales) are two totally different schools. Watterson draws more than 1/2 of their students from Hilliard, Dublin & Upper Arlington. Three very successful athletic communities in their own right. Over 90% of the students come from Catholic elementary feeder schools. At Desales, a very large part of the population come from Westerville and some from Gahanna. The rest are from the city of Columbus and yes, some students do have vouchers. I'm not saying that one school is any better than the other, but the make-up of each are very different. There is no way they limit the number of boys to make an advantage athletically. Thus, how can you warrant moving them up a division or two with a multiplier? In the same light, I have a friend who's son was recruited in Cleveland. So there is no way you can lump ANY type of school seperately. You HAVE to abide by one set of rules, just like it is now.
-
Con_Alma
That wouldn't really be a private school now would it?redstreak one wrote: Vouchers, yes of course the state using tax money to send a kid to private school. Brilliant, why didnt I think of that, oh thats right the private/parochials STILL wouldnt accept them all!... -
skank
You didn't finish it redstreak, it's more like this, "let's see .54 GPA, suspended from public school for a total of 34 days for fighting, cursing staff and students. Yep, everything checks out, thanks for applying, don't let the door hit you on the way out....Wait wait wait, come back here, I see you're 6'3 225 and run a 4.4 40? Can you be here tomorrow to pick up your pads? Good, see you then.redstreak one wrote: Vouchers, yes of course the state using tax money to send a kid to private school. Brilliant, why didnt I think of that, oh thats right the private/parochials STILL wouldnt accept them all! I can see it now, hi welcome to "Insert private/parochial school name here!" Yeah I want to go to school and I have a voucher. Wonderful, do you have all the paper work? Yeah here, hmmmm lets see .54 GPA, suspended from public school for a total of 34 days for fighting, smoking, cursing staff and students. Yep, everything checks out, thanks for applying dont let the door hit you on the way out! LOL -
Al Bundy
There are some cities where you can use voucher money. You can use federal financial aid at private colleges. Why are public schools afraid of competition? The publics schools that have good academic and extra-curricular programs would do fine, and maybe some of the one with subpar programs would improve.Con_Alma wrote:
That wouldn't really be a private school now would it?redstreak one wrote: Vouchers, yes of course the state using tax money to send a kid to private school. Brilliant, why didnt I think of that, oh thats right the private/parochials STILL wouldnt accept them all!...