Should there be separate championship for public and private schools?

• Al Bundy

  redstreak one wrote: Al, yes anyone can apply, but will those scholarships go to everyone who applies? Ah, no they wont! LOL How long would the school put up with a student on scholarship who is truant, disruptive, abusive, non compliant? Not very long, unless they bring something to the table, say 15 sacks, 24 TD's LOL. You can talk until your blue in the face about not manipulating student enrollment and I wont buy it a bit!
  
  IMO, nearly 30 percent of the overall population isnt represented in the private/parochial schools!

  Most of the small country schools don't have many of the inner city problems either.
  
  It sounds like your claim is that private schools do a better job because they demand more discipline from their students. If that is the case, why wouldn't you want the public schools to improve their discipline and do a better job. Expel students who are creating problems. You claim that it works for privates, then let the public schools do it.
• redstreak one

  

  Maybe a little thing called State and Federal laws prohibit or severly hinder a public schools ability to as you say, expel them. Wow, just instill more discipline like the privates do, yeah thats it. And also, country schools dont have the same problems as inner city schools, what world you living in? Private schools dont have to jump through the same hoops as publics do to just expel a student! A private expels a student, guess where they go, thats right back to their home publice school district!
  
  Did you know you cant expel a student with an IEP? Do you even know what an IEP is! Just keep acting like privates dont control their numbers. How many scholarship students at private schools dont participate in any extra curricular acitivities? Very low I would think.
  
  Answer this, single parent government assistance home of a discipline issue student student with below average grades and no extra curriculars participated in versus another student of the same qualifications but excels in sports, who gets that precious scholarship you say so many acquire at the privates? Which one would be in the public, 100% or both students.
• genghis dong

  September63, Does Big Red have an unfair advantage? They must cause they wacked Dover.
• Al Bundy

  redstreak one wrote: Maybe a little thing called State and Federal laws prohibit or severly hinder a public schools ability to as you say, expel them. Wow, just instill more discipline like the privates do, yeah thats it. And also, country schools dont have the same problems as inner city schools, what world you living in? Private schools dont have to jump through the same hoops as publics do to just expel a student! A private expels a student, guess where they go, thats right back to their home publice school district!
  
  Did you know you cant expel a student with an IEP? Do you even know what an IEP is! Just keep acting like privates dont control their numbers. How many scholarship students at private schools dont participate in any extra curricular acitivities? Very low I would think.
  
  Answer this, single parent government assistance home of a discipline issue student student with below average grades and no extra curriculars participated in versus another student of the same qualifications but excels in sports, who gets that precious scholarship you say so many acquire at the privates? Which one would be in the public, 100% or both students.

  I know what an IEP is. I have worked in both public and private schools. Bottom line is, the private schools do a better job. You are intermixing scholarships and financial aid. Financial aid/work assistance is base upon need. A kid who participates in more actiivities probably is more likely to get a scholarship, but why not reward him/her for the work effort?
• Rocket08

  Jimmie Copas wrote: I'm not whining,crying,or complaining,just wishing someone would "grow a pair,man up" and admit that private schools have an advantage.

  Both schools, private and public have advantages. There are plenty of Private schools with losing records. A few excel. That's basically the way of the world. So "man up" and deal with it.
  
  P.S. I'd love to have my kid compete against yours. Your kid's already lost from sitting around the kitchen table listening to you
• Jimmie Copas

  What am I saying is that private schools have an advantage,if you can't acknowlege that,then I doubt you are worthy of a debate.
• redstreak one

  

  Al, privates have a better overall product to work with. Like I said, answer me, which of those students would receive that money or oppurtunity to receive money to attend private school. You know the answer, versus a public who has to take whomever walks in their door. Like jimmie is saying, keep denying.
  
  Your last sentence Al tells me you have no idea what I am trying to get everyone to see, and that is simply privates numbers enrollment wise is lower than a similar sized public school because they will not accept everyone. If everystudent in an area applied to a private school, the bottom 30 percent of the population would be denied becauese of lack of income. That is limiting your enrollment! Go sell some shoes Al, keep your head buried.
• Al Bundy

  redstreak one wrote: Al, privates have a better overall product to work with. Like I said, answer me, which of those students would receive that money or oppurtunity to receive money to attend private school. You know the answer, versus a public who has to take whomever walks in their door. Like jimmie is saying, keep denying.
  
  Your last sentence Al tells me you have no idea what I am trying to get everyone to see, and that is simply privates numbers enrollment wise is lower than a similar sized public school because they will not accept everyone. If everystudent in an area applied to a private school, the bottom 30 percent of the population would be denied becauese of lack of income. That is limiting your enrollment! Go sell some shoes Al, keep your head buried.

  There are financial aid options for students who can't afford it. There are work programs for the parents or kids to earn money towards tuition. In Youngstown, families can take out loans through diocese credit union toward tuition. I have seen many cases where kids work jobs to earn money for tution. Many parents have taken extra jobs or overtime to earn money for tuition. I know you don't understand what a work ethic is all about, but these people do. I have seen both sides (public and private), it is the work ethic that separates the two. There are some public school people who work very hard, but there are many who just whine because they are not willing to make a sacrifice. This work ethic shows up on the football field too. Ursuline and Mooney have many kids who are willing to sacrifice and put in the time in the weightroom, when it would be much easier to sit at home play video games. The parents of the kids who let their kids play video games instead of hitting the weightroom, then cry that the system is unfair. If work ethic and sacrifice are "unfair", then I will agree that the private schools have an advantage.
• redstreak one

  

  You got me, just better work ethic and sacrifice. Yep thats it, you win!
• Go_Fast_Sports

  

  I think it is said best here.... by NWBigChief on JJ's....
  
  "I was curious so I added up some numbers for the last ten years (00-09) of state final four football....
  
  Out of 60 State Championship games....
  
  51 of the 60 have had at least one Public School in it.
  So only 9 all private championships.
  
  161 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Public Schools.
  71 out of the 161 then make it to the championship game.
  
  79 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Private Schools.
  49 out of the 79 then make it to the championship game.
  
  But when all is said and done after these 10 years...
  There have been 30 Public and 30 Private State Champs."
• Jawz83

  Jimmie Copas wrote: What am I saying is that private schools have an advantage,if you can't acknowlege that,then I doubt you are worthy of a debate.

  OK, I'll admit the privates have an advantage. That advantage is we get to compete with people like you who would rather lower the bar rather than improve their program. With that mentality, you have no idea, but you have already lost. OPSAA= Ohio Pansy School Athletic Assoc.
• Sykotyk

  

  Go_Fast_Sports wrote: I think it is said best here.... by NWBigChief on JJ's....
  
  "I was curious so I added up some numbers for the last ten years (00-09) of state final four football....
  
  Out of 60 State Championship games....
  
  51 of the 60 have had at least one Public School in it.
  So only 9 all private championships.
  
  161 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Public Schools.
  71 out of the 161 then make it to the championship game.
  
  79 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Private Schools.
  49 out of the 79 then make it to the championship game.
  
  But when all is said and done after these 10 years...
  There have been 30 Public and 30 Private State Champs."

  That's a good way to play with facts.
  
  If there were equal number private schools to public schools, the point would be valid. But, the private schools make up a very small number, overall, compared to the number of public schools in the OHSAA.
  
  If 10% of the teams were from the Toledo area, you'd assume over a 10 year period that 10% of the champions would be from the Toledo area, correct?
  
  The problem is the percentage going in doesn't match the percentage coming out.
  
  The fans arguing that it's unfair are making the point not that the team has an unfair advantage in the game itself, just that the school is taking advantage of a rather obvious mechanism, especially in the lower division.
  
  The problem is the schools enrollment. A public school is required to take any student living in its district. It can't not take that student even if there is open enrollment. Handicapped, mentally disabled, learning impaired, delinquent, etc. A private school has no requirement. They take who they want. If they fill up their school for the year, they don't have to try and squeeze another student in if they don't want to. They don't have to put up with the problem children.
  
  If Youngstown had no private schools, and suddenly there was 500 more students this year than last, they have to fit them into the building somehow. They're required to. If 500 more students want to go to Ursuline or Mooney, Ursuline and Mooney are not REQUIRED to take them. They can, if they want. Or they can cherry-pick the good students. GPA, sports, activities, etc., and punt the rest of the students back to the public schools to boost their enrollment, but not to actually help their athletic teams whatsoever.
  
  Sykotyk
• NNN

  

  I think a split would be a great education for the public school kids.
  
  I'm just trying to visualize a public school coach, post-split, telling his guys, "If there's something you want that you can't get, just throw a tantrum for long enough until you get your way. This lesson will serve you well not only today in football, but also when applying for elite colleges, trying to get into grad school, interviewing for a job, and trying to get a date from the opposite sex".
• Crimson and Gray Hair

  

  Sykotyk wrote:

  Go_Fast_Sports wrote: I think it is said best here.... by NWBigChief on JJ's....
  
  "I was curious so I added up some numbers for the last ten years (00-09) of state final four football....
  
  Out of 60 State Championship games....
  
  51 of the 60 have had at least one Public School in it.
  So only 9 all private championships.
  
  161 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Public Schools.
  71 out of the 161 then make it to the championship game.
  
  79 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Private Schools.
  49 out of the 79 then make it to the championship game.
  
  But when all is said and done after these 10 years...
  There have been 30 Public and 30 Private State Champs."

  That's a good way to play with facts.
  
  If there were equal number private schools to public schools, the point would be valid. But, the private schools make up a very small number, overall, compared to the number of public schools in the OHSAA.
  
  If 10% of the teams were from the Toledo area, you'd assume over a 10 year period that 10% of the champions would be from the Toledo area, correct?
  
  The problem is the percentage going in doesn't match the percentage coming out.
  
  The fans arguing that it's unfair are making the point not that the team has an unfair advantage in the game itself, just that the school is taking advantage of a rather obvious mechanism, especially in the lower division.
  
  The problem is the schools enrollment. A public school is required to take any student living in its district. It can't not take that student even if there is open enrollment. Handicapped, mentally disabled, learning impaired, delinquent, etc. A private school has no requirement. They take who they want. If they fill up their school for the year, they don't have to try and squeeze another student in if they don't want to. They don't have to put up with the problem children.
  
  If Youngstown had no private schools, and suddenly there was 500 more students this year than last, they have to fit them into the building somehow. They're required to. If 500 more students want to go to Ursuline or Mooney, Ursuline and Mooney are not REQUIRED to take them. They can, if they want. Or they can cherry-pick the good students. GPA, sports, activities, etc., and punt the rest of the students back to the public schools to boost their enrollment, but not to actually help their athletic teams whatsoever.
  
  Sykotyk

  Absolutely! Excellent summation of what is the "problem".
  
  As has often been mentioned, the private schools achieve better GPSs and place more kids in college and this is precisely why! They have no obligation to educate those students who are "difficult to educate". So,I guess you could take any public school and just count the "good" students toward the total enrollment. Now the mediocre D2 school becomes and D4 powerhouse!
• Al Bundy

  Sykotyk wrote:

  Go_Fast_Sports wrote: I think it is said best here.... by NWBigChief on JJ's....
  
  "I was curious so I added up some numbers for the last ten years (00-09) of state final four football....
  
  Out of 60 State Championship games....
  
  51 of the 60 have had at least one Public School in it.
  So only 9 all private championships.
  
  161 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Public Schools.
  71 out of the 161 then make it to the championship game.
  
  79 out of 240 Final Four teams have been Private Schools.
  49 out of the 79 then make it to the championship game.
  
  But when all is said and done after these 10 years...
  There have been 30 Public and 30 Private State Champs."

  That's a good way to play with facts.
  
  If there were equal number private schools to public schools, the point would be valid. But, the private schools make up a very small number, overall, compared to the number of public schools in the OHSAA.
  
  If 10% of the teams were from the Toledo area, you'd assume over a 10 year period that 10% of the champions would be from the Toledo area, correct?
  
  The problem is the percentage going in doesn't match the percentage coming out.
  
  The fans arguing that it's unfair are making the point not that the team has an unfair advantage in the game itself, just that the school is taking advantage of a rather obvious mechanism, especially in the lower division.
  
  The problem is the schools enrollment. A public school is required to take any student living in its district. It can't not take that student even if there is open enrollment. Handicapped, mentally disabled, learning impaired, delinquent, etc. A private school has no requirement. They take who they want. If they fill up their school for the year, they don't have to try and squeeze another student in if they don't want to. They don't have to put up with the problem children.
  
  If Youngstown had no private schools, and suddenly there was 500 more students this year than last, they have to fit them into the building somehow. They're required to. If 500 more students want to go to Ursuline or Mooney, Ursuline and Mooney are not REQUIRED to take them. They can, if they want. Or they can cherry-pick the good students. GPA, sports, activities, etc., and punt the rest of the students back to the public schools to boost their enrollment, but not to actually help their athletic teams whatsoever.
  
  Sykotyk

  Ursuline and Mooney would love to have 500 more students next year. That's almost $3,000,000 in tuition.
• Rocket08

  Sykotyk wrote:

  Go_Fast_Sports wrote:
  If Youngstown had no private schools, and suddenly there was 500 more students this year than last, they have to fit them into the building somehow. They're required to. If 500 more students want to go to Ursuline or Mooney, Ursuline and Mooney are not REQUIRED to take them. They can, if they want. Or they can cherry-pick the good students. GPA, sports, activities, etc., and punt the rest of the students back to the public schools to boost their enrollment, but not to actually help their athletic teams whatsoever.
  
  Sykotyk

  You are absolutely clueless as to how, and why, these schools operate.

• redstreak one

  

  http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/04/poverty_numbers.html
  
  "37 million: Number of Americans who live below the official poverty line—12.6 percent of the total population. Millions more struggle to get by."
  
  This is a quote from the American Progress website on poverty in the U.S. I would assume, beat me if I am wrong, that the millions more struggle to get by would mean that nearly 20 percent are just above the poverty line, give or take a few percentage points.
  
  Rocket08 and Al, you say we public school proponents are clueless, no work ethic, etc. etc. All we do is whine! LOL
  
  Answer this, would a private school take a student from this percentage of the population and help them financially? Yes, they would, but only with stipulations such as cant be a trouble maker and keep up grades or you are gone. Guess what geniusses, public schools have to take them. Every kid that lives in that particular public school district has to be allowed in the school and given a chance every year. So there is your number discrepancy!
  
  We understand that every private school out there wants as many PAYING people as possible, we get that. But what about that 20 percent that cant afford it or dont want an education, they are still in the public schools. You two do realize that there are kids and parents that dont care about an education, and only send their kids to school because the law makes them, right? Do they work the school programs or apply for a loan, no they dont value and education, but they are still in the public schools. The privates are playing in a division with unequal numbers compared to publics. Heres a little quote speaking of Youngstown on the state of their public schools from a Mooney supporter. "Those poor schools in the inner city, they only have to lowest of the low students still attending their school" Still feel sorry!
• James "Boobie" Miles

  OPSAA...your my hero in life. I'm glad you understand!!!
• Al Bundy

  redstreak one wrote: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/04/poverty_numbers.html
  
  "37 million: Number of Americans who live below the official poverty line—12.6 percent of the total population. Millions more struggle to get by."
  
  This is a quote from the American Progress website on poverty in the U.S. I would assume, beat me if I am wrong, that the millions more struggle to get by would mean that nearly 20 percent are just above the poverty line, give or take a few percentage points.

  
  
  Mahoning County has a lower average income than Mercer County. I used Mercer County because of the Ursuline/Coldwater game. Mahoning County is one of the lower income counties in the state.
  

  redstreak one wrote:
  You two do realize that there are kids and parents that dont care about an education

  I went the ohio department of education website and looked up the graduation rate of some of the top powers in the smaller divisions. Most of their graduation rates were in the high 90 percents. The only schools that I found very low were the big inner city schools (none of which are in the small divisions).
  
  I highly respect Coldwater and many of the top teams in that part of the state. The MAC has dominated the small school divisions over the last couple of decades and built great programs. If you build a good program, you will get kids who want to play for you.
• 4cards

  

  redstreak one wrote: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/04/poverty_numbers.html
  
  "37 million: Number of Americans who live below the official poverty line—12.6 percent of the total population. Millions more struggle to get by."
  
  This is a quote from the American Progress website on poverty in the U.S. I would assume, beat me if I am wrong, that the millions more struggle to get by would mean that nearly 20 percent are just above the poverty line, give or take a few percentage points.
  
  Rocket08 and Al, you say we public school proponents are clueless, no work ethic, etc. etc. All we do is whine! LOL
  
  Answer this, would a private school take a student from this percentage of the population and help them financially? Yes, they would, but only with stipulations such as cant be a trouble maker and keep up grades or you are gone. Guess what geniusses, public schools have to take them. Every kid that lives in that particular public school district has to be allowed in the school and given a chance every year. So there is your number discrepancy!
  
  We understand that every private school out there wants as many PAYING people as possible, we get that. But what about that 20 percent that cant afford it or dont want an education, they are still in the public schools. You two do realize that there are kids and parents that dont care about an education, and only send their kids to school because the law makes them, right? Do they work the school programs or apply for a loan, no they dont value and education, but they are still in the public schools. The privates are playing in a division with unequal numbers compared to publics. Heres a little quote speaking of Youngstown on the state of their public schools from a Mooney supporter. "Those poor schools in the inner city, they only have to lowest of the low students still attending their school" Still feel sorry!

  ...I'm not sure which Mooney poster (who can tell on these boards) may or may not have said that but I know one thing for sure. I paid over $40,000 in tuition for (2) kids to attend Mooney & still paid property taxes to support the kids attending public school in the district I live. Was it my choice, Yes. Am I complaining, No. I'm just stating the facts that people want to blame all of the poor performace on public schools in the playoffs on parochical schools having an advantage and that's horse dung. You never EVER hear the people in the MAC complain one bit. They strap up, take on all teams and generally win state titles. Possibly the public schools around the state should talk to schools like Coldwater, St. Henry, Versailles and see how they get it done and learn from it instead of complaining....!
• Rocket08

  4cards wrote:

  redstreak one wrote: You never EVER hear the people in the MAC complain one bit. They strap up, take on all teams and generally win state titles. Possibly the public schools around the state should talk to schools like Coldwater, St. Henry, Versailles and see how they get it done and learn from it instead of complaining....!

  Why do the whiners always ignore this question.
  
  I'll respond to some of your "issues" redstreak, when you respond to this

• Blitzkrieg

  Al Bundy wrote: Ursuline and Mooney have many kids who are willing to sacrifice and put in the time in the weightroom, when it would be much easier to sit at home play video games. The parents of the kids who let their kids play video games instead of hitting the weightroom, then cry that the system is unfair. If work ethic and sacrifice are "unfair", then I will agree that the private schools have an advantage.

  I highly doubt the Ursuline and Mooney kids work any harder in the weight room that any of the starters for Anna, Coldwater, St Henry, St Marys, Kenton, Wapak, Defiance, etc.
  
  All you are doing is tossing out ridiculous arguments that no one is implying. These same arguments that demonstrates your own ego in thinking your private school kids are superior to others.
  
  The system gives an advantage to lower division schools that have larger population bases to attract students from. Coldwater has a population on 5000 people. The Kettering and Youngstown areas (2 schools that have recently beaten Coldwater) are much, much larger.
  
  And just ask the Mooney posters - Coldwater only won their 2 state championships because Mooney QB's were injured in both games.
• Sonofanump

  Crimson and Gray Hair wrote: So,I guess you could take any public school and just count the "good" students toward the total enrollment. Now the mediocre D2 school becomes and D4 powerhouse!

  Just curious in your little world. Who is going to be playing in D2 when all the public schools become D4?
• Al Bundy

  Blitzkrieg wrote:

  Al Bundy wrote: Ursuline and Mooney have many kids who are willing to sacrifice and put in the time in the weightroom, when it would be much easier to sit at home play video games. The parents of the kids who let their kids play video games instead of hitting the weightroom, then cry that the system is unfair. If work ethic and sacrifice are "unfair", then I will agree that the private schools have an advantage.

  I highly doubt the Ursuline and Mooney kids work any harder in the weight room that any of the starters for Anna, Coldwater, St Henry, St Marys, Kenton, Wapak, Defiance, etc.
  
  All you are doing is tossing out ridiculous arguments that no one is implying. These same arguments that demonstrates your own ego in thinking your private school kids are superior to others.
  
  The system gives an advantage to lower division schools that have larger population bases to attract students from. Coldwater has a population on 5000 people. The Kettering and Youngstown areas (2 schools that have recently beaten Coldwater) are much, much larger.
  
  And just ask the Mooney posters - Coldwater only won their 2 state championships because Mooney QB's were injured in both games.

  Those schools you mentioned are all great schools, and I am sure their kids work very hard. However, the bottom line is that Ursuline outplayed Coldwater in the Championship game this year. Coldwater outplayed Mooney the two times they played. I've talked to several MAC supporters over the years at the state finals, and I have never heard them whine about losing, and I respect those teams and their fans for that. The whining of some posters on here gets very old when they lose. I just wish some people would work on building their program instead of trying to tear down someone else's.
• wc expert

  no argument that Mooney, Ursuline, Iggy, etc. are all great programs that field great teams consistently.
  They should enjoy their titles, they earned them on the field.
  
  Just not that big of a deal when they do win them, to me anyway.