Archive

The National Anthem

  • queencitybuckeye
    HitsRus;1874124 wrote:^^^ That’s one solution. Another would not to play the anthem at all, in defiance of tradition and surrender to the America haters. Or they could require their employees to stand “ in rememberance of those who sacrificed their lives in pursuit of the high ideals our nation strives for.”... but that would assume everyone is grateful, which clearly is not the case.
    Actually the assumption you're making is that the flag and the anthem somehow belongs in greater measure to the military than the rest of us. This is false, which makes the idea that these protests are in any way aimed at them also false. That flag and that anthem are as much mine as a medal of honor recipient. And the same applies to the protesters.
  • BRF
    "The memo states that individual teams "do not have the discretion to waive" the rule that players, coaches and staff stand for the anthem. The league has the discretion to discipline players who violate the rule. It is not clear if the league would exercise it in the event of any protest. The league also does not want teams independently disciplining players, sources say, and has encouraged open dialogue within teams."

    Ohhhhhh.
  • O-Trap
    QuakerOats;1874061 wrote:If the military is ok with that, then I am.
    Many, many military have come out in support of the protest. What of them?
    superman;1874076 wrote:Yeah. Meme generator sucks. Or I suck. Either way.
    No worries. I was just busting you a bit. It's all good.
    queencitybuckeye;1874121 wrote:Perhaps a good middle ground is for the NFL to stop selling their patriotism for money, and get back to keeping the teams in the locker room until it's time to play. Nothing to protest here.
    I'd be all for that. You know, "the good old days," when patriotic observance is a matter of personal conviction and wasn't being used for profit.
    HitsRus;1874124 wrote:^^^ That’s one solution. Another would not to play the anthem at all, in defiance of tradition and surrender to the America haters. Or they could require their employees to stand “ in rememberance of those who sacrificed their lives in pursuit of the high ideals our nation strives for.”... but that would assume everyone is grateful, which clearly is not the case.
    In defiance of tradition?

    Tradition is players being in the locker room for the anthem. Forcing the players to be on the field is defiance of tradition.
  • O-Trap
    queencitybuckeye;1874144 wrote:Actually the assumption you're making is that the flag and the anthem somehow belongs in greater measure to the military than the rest of us. This is false, which makes the idea that these protests are in any way aimed at them also false. That flag and that anthem are as much mine as a medal of honor recipient. And the same applies to the protesters.
    That was well-articulated. Reps.
  • HitsRus
    queencitybuckeye;1874144 wrote:Actually the assumption you're making is that the flag and the anthem somehow belongs in greater measure to the military than the rest of us. This is false, which makes the idea that these protests are in any way aimed at them also false. That flag and that anthem are as much mine as a medal of honor recipient. And the same applies to the protesters.
    ^^^
    I agree with everything that you wrote above…I was just trying to find the least common denominator.
  • HitsRus
    O-Trap wrote:





    Originally Posted by HitsRus
    ^^^ That’s one solution. Another would not to play the anthem at all, in defiance of tradition and surrender to the America haters. Or they could require their employees to stand “ in rememberance of those who sacrificed their lives in pursuit of the high ideals our nation strives for.”... but that would assume everyone is grateful, which clearly is not the case.



    In defiance of tradition?

    Tradition is players being in the locker room for the anthem. Forcing the players to be on the field is defiance of tradition.





    Please re - read the bold type... I was talking about suspending playing the Anthem before the game, which has been a tradition before any athletic event I’ve ever attended in 60 years.
  • queencitybuckeye
    HitsRus;1874167 wrote: Please re - read the bold type... I was talking about suspending playing the Anthem before the game, which has been a tradition before any athletic event I’ve ever attended in 60 years.
    While that would solve the "problem", simply reverting back to keeping the teams in the locker room until after all of the pregame stuff is concluded (which was also a tradition until the NFL whored themselves out to the military) would work equally well.
  • HitsRus
    Sure, that would work and that’s fine. I am generally supportive of Mike Tomlin’s attempt to remove himself and his team from the drama that this has become. It should have never come to this, and the NFL is completely at fault thru it’s inaction. It has had over a year to realize the potential distraction/ disruption that this has become. It’s inaction has allowed its business to become a political forum manipulated by interests that are not central to its business. The point that I’m trying to make is that there are multiple solutions, and the NFL, has negligently availed itself of none. How they want to do this is entirely up to them and how they want to run their business, which they have the absolute right to. They need to remove politics/political statements and the distraction and anger that they cause from their game.
  • O-Trap
    HitsRus;1874167 wrote:O-Trap wrote:





    Originally Posted by HitsRus
    ^^^ That’s one solution. Another would not to play the anthem at all, in defiance of tradition and surrender to the America haters. Or they could require their employees to stand “ in rememberance of those who sacrificed their lives in pursuit of the high ideals our nation strives for.”... but that would assume everyone is grateful, which clearly is not the case.



    In defiance of tradition?

    Tradition is players being in the locker room for the anthem. Forcing the players to be on the field is defiance of tradition.





    Please re - read the bold type... I was talking about suspending playing the Anthem before the game, which has been a tradition before any athletic event I’ve ever attended in 60 years.
    Apologies, as I misunderstood.

    I'd suggest that not playing the anthem at all is hardly "surrendering to the America haters," as that seems like a pretty melodramatic brand of hyperbole, but I get what you were saying with the bolded part.

    As I recall, playing it before every single game started around WW2. That sound right? If so, that's certainly tradition, though my understanding is that, at least at some point, it was required to hire a band in order to play the national anthem at all.
  • Spock
    One person sitting tonight during anthem.
  • HitsRus
    O-Trap;1874287 wrote:Apologies, as I misunderstood.

    I'd suggest that not playing the anthem at all is hardly "surrendering to the America haters," as that seems like a pretty melodramatic brand of hyperbole, but I get what you were saying with the bolded part.

    As I recall, playing it before every single game started around WW2. That sound right? If so, that's certainly tradition, though my understanding is that, at least at some point, it was required to hire a band in order to play the national anthem at all    .
    I honestly don't know, but I'm in my 60's and never recall a game without it.
  • QuakerOats
    2 weeks now without seeing or hearing one NFL play ...........not missing it a bit, and not going back to it.


    Screw 'em.
  • O-Trap
    QuakerOats;1874771 wrote:2 weeks now without seeing or hearing one NFL play ...........not missing it a bit, and not going back to it.


    Screw 'em.
  • Heretic
    QuakerOats;1874771 wrote:2 weeks now without seeing or hearing one NFL play ...........not missing it a bit, and not going back to it.


    Screw 'em.
    Always good to find someone found their "safe spot" where they don't have to be confronted by the visage of people with differing views!
  • QuakerOats
    Has nothing to do with differing views, has everything to do with disrespect and lack of education.
  • Fab4Runner
    QuakerOats;1874783 wrote:Has nothing to do with differing views, has everything to do with disrespect and lack of education.
    Are you ever going to reply to O-trap or me with your views on military members and vets who support these protests?
  • QuakerOats
    I am with the 99% who believe it is disrespectful, ignorant, divisive, and wrong.


    If the players want real change they should be protesting awful schools, children becoming parents when they are still children, fathers abandoning their families, and illegal drug use. There is much they could do that would have a positive impact, unfortunately they chose what they did.
  • Heretic
    QuakerOats;1874791 wrote:I am with the 99% who believe it is disrespectful, ignorant, divisive, and wrong.


    If the players want real change they should be protesting awful schools, children becoming parents when they are still children, fathers abandoning their families, and illegal drug use. There is much they could do that would have a positive impact, unfortunately they chose what they did.
    Link to 99%?
  • Fab4Runner
    QuakerOats;1874061 wrote:If the military is ok with that, then I am.
    QuakerOats;1874791 wrote:I am with the 99% who believe it is disrespectful, ignorant, divisive, and wrong.


    If the players want real change they should be protesting awful schools, children becoming parents when they are still children, fathers abandoning their families, and illegal drug use. There is much they could do that would have a positive impact, unfortunately they chose what they did.
    Except you're not.
  • Automatik
    Still apathetic since kneel #1. Sure beats being triggered daily.
  • O-Trap
    QuakerOats;1874791 wrote:I am with the 99% who believe it is disrespectful, ignorant, divisive, and wrong.
    Where have we heard the "we are with the 99%" thing before? Ah yes ... the Wall Street protesters, who never actually figured out that they weren't the actual 99%.

    As for your notion that it's disrespectful, ignorant, divisive, and wrong, I would contend the following:

    It is disrespectful to assume to speak for someone else who is perfectly capable of speaking for himself or herself. When you say you're "with" the military in opposing the protest, you are, in effect, speaking for the majority of the military personnel and deciding what their position is for them.

    It is ignorant to assume that any collection of individuals, able to think freely and independently, don't have a wide swath of perspectives on the topic.

    It is divisive to draw such clear lines around "teams" or "sides" and to group someone on your side because of their personal conviction and willing to sacrifice in a separate matter.

    Finally, it is wrong to treat individuals who are part of one group as though they are a homogeneous monolith. The same logical process is used to paint all conservatives as ignorant racists. The thought process is fallacious, no matter the context in which you apply it. And it's wrong to try to make an argument not on reasoning and logical merit, but on who would side with you.

    From One Who Sacrificed: Stop Using Me in Your Anti-"Take-A-Knee" Argument

    Four-Star General Michael Hayden: As a 39-year military veteran, I think I know something about the flag, the anthem, patriotism, and I think I know why we fight. It’s not to allow the president to divide us by wrapping himself in the national banner. I never imagined myself saying this before Friday, but if now forced to choose in this dispute, put me down with Kaepernick.

    Military Personnel Support Colin Kaepernick

    Leave Veterans and Soldiers Out of the Anthem Debate

    #VeteransForKaepernick


    QuakerOats;1874791 wrote:If the players want real change they should be protesting awful schools, children becoming parents when they are still children, fathers abandoning their families, and illegal drug use. There is much they could do that would have a positive impact, unfortunately they chose what they did.
    Thank you for the classic example of one of the Soviets' most-used (and logically fallacious) propaganda tools: the whataboutism.

    If you want to discuss those topics ... or if the NFL players do ... they can start a different discussion, but that's not what this discussion is about. Attempting to make it about anything else is diversionary.
    Heretic;1874800 wrote:Link to 99%?
  • justincredible
    O-Trap;1874287 wrote:Apologies, as I misunderstood.

    I'd suggest that not playing the anthem at all is hardly "surrendering to the America haters," as that seems like a pretty melodramatic brand of hyperbole, but I get what you were saying with the bolded part.

    As I recall, playing it before every single game started around WW2. That sound right? If so, that's certainly tradition, though my understanding is that, at least at some point, it was required to hire a band in order to play the national anthem at all.
    I'm pretty sure I read recently that MLB has been doing it since WWI.
  • O-Trap
    justincredible;1874836 wrote:I'm pretty sure I read recently that MLB has been doing it since WWI.
    Gotcha. I wasn't going to look it up, because ultimately, I don't think it matters.

    Nobody should be vilified for bucking tradition just because it's tradition.
  • QuakerOats
    I was asked, apparently for at least the second time, and I wrote what I thought. I am sorry you do not like my position, or that of the VAST majority of Americans.

    I have posted the positive steps (protests) that players could embrace to actually make positive impacts, however I seriously doubt they take those actions.

    So, I guess we are at the point where some posters on here have stated they DGAF about respecting the flag and the national anthem; and I DGAF about the NFL and their ignorant, egotistical, disrespectful, manner-less, jackasses.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    justincredible;1874836 wrote:I'm pretty sure I read recently that MLB has been doing it since WWI.
    At the World Series, yeah, since WWI. Here is a neat little article from a few years ago:
    http://m.mlb.com/news/article/94215622/star-spangled-banner-forever-linked-with-baseball-turns-200/

    That reminded me of the 1968 National Anthem performed by Jose Feliciano during the World Series.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQkY2UFBUb4
    It is a great rendition, but people really, really, really disliked it at the time.

    Also, the O! that the Orioles fans and a lot of people yell in the Maryland, DC, Virginia area during the anthem is soooo dumb.