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geeblock

Member

Fri, Apr 26, 2019 9:18 PM
posted by jmog

 

Sri Lanka, the dozens of churches in France that have been torched (ND was an accident, rest were intentional by local Muslims), etc.

 

The problem with your other statement is this. If it were only the Christians who hold the signs “God hates fags” and are intentionally gross/idiotic outside abortion clinics then I would agree with you.

 

However, with the modern left/media if a Christian says that homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible, they they are labeled homophobic and a bigot.  That is ridiculous and you should agree that it is really.

 

Also  the black churches in the south getting burned down. By “other Christians”. As far as what the Bible says  I agree my mother is a Jehovah’s Witness and we were raised to believe it’s a sin. I don’t think anyone says if you believe in the Bible and you believe being gay is a sin makes you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you take those beliefs and apply them to other people. Is the sin of being gay worse than adultery? When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

jmog

Senior Member

Fri, Apr 26, 2019 9:18 PM
posted by geeblock

Don’t be deft 

It is an EXACT correlation! Just because you don’t like the analogy doesn’t make it 100% spot on. 

geeblock

Member

Fri, Apr 26, 2019 9:20 PM
posted by geeblock

Also  the black churches in the south getting burned down. By “other Christians”. As far as what the Bible says  I agree my mother is a Jehovah’s Witness and we were raised to believe it’s a sin. I don’t think anyone says if you believe in the Bible and you believe being gay is a sin makes you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you take those beliefs and apply them to other people. Is the sin of being gay worse than adultery? When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

Also what other groups do the god hate fags thing and protest funerals of dead soldiers ect.. isn’t that only Christians?

geeblock

Member

Fri, Apr 26, 2019 9:26 PM

Is the sin of being gay worse than having  pre marital sex, birth control, I could go on. That is really the question as who is to judge someone else. If there is a god we will all have to answer individually

thavoice

Senior Member

Fri, Apr 26, 2019 10:28 PM
posted by jmog

More Christians killed by Muslims in terrorist attacks over the last whatever years than Muslims killed by Christians. You wouldn’t know this if you watched any thing other than maybe Fox however. 

How many Muslims have been killed by American Christians since 9/11? Many were militants, but most were innocent civilians (which unfortunately is the price of war).

thavoice

Senior Member

Fri, Apr 26, 2019 10:30 PM
posted by jmog

I believe murder, theft, rape, etc are wrong, should we not have laws on these things because they are all my beliefs (and actually stem from the Judeo-Christian Bible)?

 

Your logic is flawed. You have to understand that to a pro-lifer it is killing a living baby. Just like they believe murder is wrong, they believe abortion is as well. 

 

Of course abortion is wrong, it is killing a baby

 

You take almost anything that is illegal and morally wrong and put it in your analogy and it may make you realize why they are fervent in their pro life beliefs. 

 

 

 

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 2:46 AM
posted by geeblock

Hmmm... I not sure I’m getting there with that analogy. Putting your beliefs on someone and making a law saying YOU can’t get an abortion because believe it’s wrong just doesn’t get me there.

 

The analogy was this:
If you don't like or morally agree with X, then don't partake in X.

Try applying that to a financial hobby horse.  The tune usually changes.

 

 

geeblock

Member

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 7:33 AM
posted by thavoice

 

Of course abortion is wrong, it is killing a baby

 

You take almost anything that is illegal and morally wrong and put it in your analogy and it may make you realize why they are fervent in their pro life beliefs. 

 

 

 

So if you are anti abortion you automatically have to be pro universal health care right?

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 9:32 AM
posted by geeblock

 When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

Towards the top of my list of why I hate how most christians act.

Heretic

Son of the Sun

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 12:51 PM
posted by ernest_t_bass

Towards the top of my list of why I hate how most christians act.

Yep. To go with CHS' post, while I tend to dump on all non-Elder Gods religions, Christianity gets it more than Islam from me simply due to actually knowing a lot of people who profess faith in the former, as opposed to the latter. And when you know someone, like say a co-worker who claims to be faithful, listens to Christian music and goes to church, but also is a super-negative person who always is complaining about someone else, gossips about people like that is her job and never feels she is to blame whenever something goes wrong, well, there's a lot of shit to mock about her and her beliefs.

I tend to have a lot less of a problem with the religion itself than the people following it, since personal experience has tended to paint a disproportionate percentage of them as hypocrites who hide behind scripture to justify one belief or another, while the concepts of "bettering oneself" and "not being a complete fuck" go sailing way over their heads.

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 12:52 PM

Anybody with any kind of faith can "line item veto" anything from their tenets that they want to. Then, at that point it is between them and whatever higher being/God/head of lettuce/meteor that they have. The point is is that you can't have everything your own way no matter if you believe in something or believe in nothing. I think, for the most part, Judeo-Christian values and a secular law work together pretty well. It will never satisfy everybody, especially to the extent that they want to be satisfied but it's what we have. It's probably a good thing that it works this way, when you think about it. I wouldn't want to live in a country where religion IS the law. 

jmog

Senior Member

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 3:05 PM
posted by geeblock

Also  the black churches in the south getting burned down. By “other Christians”. As far as what the Bible says  I agree my mother is a Jehovah’s Witness and we were raised to believe it’s a sin. I don’t think anyone says if you believe in the Bible and you believe being gay is a sin makes you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you take those beliefs and apply them to other people. Is the sin of being gay worse than adultery? When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

If you don’t believe the “left” has labeled even those that believe homosexuality is a sin as homophobic then you haven’t paid attention. 

 

And you you are right, all sin is sin. Homosexuality is no better or worse than adultery, lying, etc. 

jmog

Senior Member

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 3:07 PM
posted by geeblock

So if you are anti abortion you automatically have to be pro universal health care right?

Please explain this logic. I am curious. 

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

Sat, Apr 27, 2019 6:54 PM

People who are proud of getting something for being a complainer.

GFY

ptown_trojans_1

Moderator

Mon, Apr 29, 2019 1:12 PM
posted by jmog

Compared to U. Grant he was a genius. Realistically the Union just has more troops, more guns, more $$. The war was an inevitable conclusion no matter who was the Confederate General. 

 

But Lee was a good General, one would be denying history to say he wasn’t. 

Make no mistake, he was fighting on the wrong side morally, I am just talking about battle tactics. 

No. Don't short change Grant. Grant understood more than Lee the totality of the war and how to squeeze the south from multiple areas. Lee also made too many mistakes, especially during 1863-1864 to be considered a genius. Grant made one mistake during the last two years, Cold Harbor.  Grant's record out in the western theater was also really, really impressive. It is why Lincoln wanted him to command the entire Union army. 

I read Ron Chernow's Grant last year as well as Grant's Memoirs. I highly recommend them for people to fully understand how great Grant was. 

There was one passage from Chernow's book I appreciate, "The relentless focus on Grant's last battles against Robert E. Lee in Virginia has obscured his stellar record of winning battles in the western war long before taking charge of Union forces in early 1864. After that, he did not simply direct the Army of the Potomac, but masterminded the coordinated movements of all federal forces. A far-seeing general, he adopted a comprehensive policy for all theaters of war, treating them as an interrelated whole. However brilliant Lee was as a tactician, Grant surpassed him as a grand strategy crafting the plan that defeated the Confederacy. The military historian John Keegan paid homage to Grant as "the towering military genius of the Civil War" and noted the modernity of his methods as he mobilized railroads and telegraphs to set his armies in motion. Grant, he concluded, "was the greatest general of the war, one who would have excelled at any time in any army." 

 

geeblock

Member

Mon, Apr 29, 2019 4:44 PM
posted by jmog

Please explain this logic. I am curious. 

I am trying to say that if your beliefs based on the Bible make you feel like someone else should have a Child that they don’t want and can’t care for, them those same Christian beliefs would say you would support social programs/wic/Heathcare because helping your neighbor is also a tenet of Christian belief. It is very hypocritical to base a pro life belief on the Bible but al a cart pick other beliefs if that makes sense 

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

Mon, Apr 29, 2019 5:11 PM

Thoughts and prayers. 

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

Tue, Apr 30, 2019 2:03 AM
posted by geeblock

I am trying to say that if your beliefs based on the Bible make you feel like someone else should have a Child that they don’t want and can’t care for, them those same Christian beliefs would say you would support social programs/wic/Heathcare because helping your neighbor is also a tenet of Christian belief. It is very hypocritical to base a pro life belief on the Bible but al a cart pick other beliefs if that makes sense 

There is a conflation of responsibilities here, although you do absolutely allude to some underlying issues that are often unduly neglected in the western Christian faith.

First, there is a delineation between positive and negative rights, which does land the two things you're comparing here in opposite places ... at least according to most Christians.  The right to be free of someone trying to kill me isn't the same as the right to someone else's resources in order to keep myself alive.

The right to not be killed without just cause doesn't implicitly require any burden be placed on any third party.

The right to access something that costs money cannot pass that same litmus test, because it does, in fact, require a burden be placed on a third party.

Think about it this way:
I have the right to walk down the street without being assaulted.  Does that mean I have the right to commandeer you and a friend to act as my free bodyguards as I walk down the street?

Of course, this sounds like an absurd example, but it checks the exact same boxes.  I do, indeed, have the right to walk down the street without being assaulted.  That doesn't, however, give me the right to your property (the sum total of your body, time, and assets) in order to ensure that I am able to do so, because my right to my own property (ie, my body) being unimpeded doesn't trump your right to your own.

Second, the programs you mention are not the same as giving of oneself.  "Love your neighbor as yourself" ... a VERY important commandment in the Scriptures ... is not the same as, "Pass legislation to force everyone to help your neighbor, even against their will."

At that point, it is no longer generosity or charity.  Giving at the end of a barrel of a proverbial gun is not giving.  There is a pretty blatant distinction between loving your neighbor and forcing everyone to love your neighbor.  The primary verb in the former imperative is 'love', but the primary verb in the latter is 'force'.  This is all, of course, not even mentioning the fact that IF it were a religious imperative to vote any which way, then we'd be dealing with someone genuinely and intentionally voting in support of a theocracy, and I'm certain that's not what you'd advocate.

Make no mistake: The Bible is painfully clear that charity, generosity, and aiding those in need is one of the most important things in a life lived in accordance with the whole of the Scriptures.  It's the second most repeated condemnation against the Israelite people in the Old Testament (behind idolatry, for whatever that's worth), and Jesus essentially stated that the second most important command within the entirety of the Law and Prophets ... one he alludes to being necessary as part of the first most important one ... is to love our neighbors (which he then goes on to explain as anybody in our sphere of influence who is in need).  It's very important, and a LOT of Republicans seem to get so wrapped up in whether or not they should have to that they lose sight of whether or not they should anyway.

Still, it is perfectly possible to believe that it is one's moral duty to help his neighbor and community with the needs present as he is able while still opposing a law that would enforce such a moral duty with the threat of fines, imprisonment, and physical force.

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

Tue, Apr 30, 2019 8:30 AM

/smarted

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

Tue, Apr 30, 2019 10:23 AM
posted by ernest_t_bass

/smarted

/tldr

QuakerOats

Senior Member

Tue, Apr 30, 2019 10:43 AM
posted by geeblock

I am trying to say that if your beliefs based on the Bible make you feel like someone else should have a Child that they don’t want and can’t care for, them those same Christian beliefs would say you would support social programs/wic/Heathcare because helping your neighbor is also a tenet of Christian belief. It is very hypocritical to base a pro life belief on the Bible but al a cart pick other beliefs if that makes sense 

 

 

If someone does not want to have a child and/or cannot care for a child, then they need to behave accordingly.  If they do have a child and do not want it and/or cannot care for it, then they can easily give the child up for adoption, as millions of adoptive parents exist.  Once someone is responsible for innocent life, they need to respect that life as much or more than their own, until their responsibility ceases.

geeblock

Member

Tue, Apr 30, 2019 12:33 PM
posted by QuakerOats

 

 

If someone does not want to have a child and/or cannot care for a child, then they need to behave accordingly.  If they do have a child and do not want it and/or cannot care for it, then they can easily give the child up for adoption, as millions of adoptive parents exist.  Once someone is responsible for innocent life, they need to respect that life as much or more than their own, until their responsibility ceases.

what if they are informed that the baby has severe medial issues/deformities is that child getting adopted?  people signing up to lose their life savings in medial bills to adopt a child that may or may not live? i doubt it.  What if a person is raped?  should they be forced to have the child?  

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

Tue, Apr 30, 2019 12:56 PM
posted by geeblock

what if they are informed that the baby has severe medial issues/deformities is that child getting adopted?  people signing up to lose their life savings in medial bills to adopt a child that may or may not live? i doubt it.  What if a person is raped?  should they be forced to have the child?  

Or what if the family has children while they ARE both willing and able to take care of them, but then, they end up with a crisis that alters that ability?

I have an acquaintance whose husband I was very close with.  They divided up the labor in traditional terms.  He worked, and she took care of the kids and home (and worked a day a week, so they had some spending cash to do things as a family).  Both were diligent and responsible.

He passed away a few years ago from pulmonary fibrosis, leaving her as an early-30s mom with four kids between about 12 and 1.

They weren't being irresponsible, and she wasn't about to adopt out her children, nor would I expect her to.

I'm not saying this to say I advocate for social programs, but it's naive to think there aren't circumstances in which "help," in the broad sense, is necessary.