posted by SportsAndLady

Lol, you don’t have to get so worked up over this. You guys wanted an example of why I thought this place is heavily right winged, and I provided one. Relax

I don't think anyone ever argued that the OC wasn't right winged.  Even when the bulk of the left wing posters were active on this site, it was still a right leaning website.  If you didn't know that, you obviously were not active in the politics forum enough to give a fuck. 

My question as it was 2-3 weeks ago, was what is your basis for saying this site all of a sudden moved much more to the right?  I can see the argument that the left wing posters aren't around anymore to counteract the right wing arguments, but that was not your argument.  You claimed this site has moved further to the right (as in the posters ideologies have moved to the right) and so far the only argument to support this is you saying  "if you can't see it I don't know what to tell you."  Thus why I said it was a weak and lazy argument.  I think most of the active political posters on this site have remained principled with their beliefs whether you like them or not.  

Also for those who will bring up identifying as libertarians, I think there is a good argument that libertarianism is inherently right moderate leaning at a minimum. 

posted by like_that

Also for those who will bring up identifying as libertarians, I think there is a good argument that libertarianism is inherently right moderate leaning at a minimum. 

Ehhh, it's a true [socially] liberal position, that now appears right leaning because the left has gone batshit over identity politics.  And then on fiscal, it's a traditionally conservative position.

I feel like the left reflexively labels libertarians as right-wingers, mainly because everyone that disagrees with them gets labeled right-winger in order to dismiss them.

More broadly, if you are for smaller govt, especially federal - which aligns both socially and fiscally for libertarians - then you are considered at least right-leaning according to the modern big-Fed Democratic party.  The irony is the Repubs aren't really any less big-Fed than Democrats.

posted by gut

Ehhh, it's a true [socially] liberal position, that now appears right leaning because the left has gone batshit over identity politics.  And then on fiscal, it's a traditionally conservative position.

I feel like the left reflexively labels libertarians as right-wingers, mainly because everyone that disagrees with them gets labeled right-winger in order to dismiss them.

More broadly, if you are for smaller govt, especially federal - which aligns both socially and fiscally for libertarians - then you are considered at least right-leaning according to the modern big-Fed Democratic party.  The irony is the Repubs aren't really any less big-Fed than Democrats.

Libertarians are more stay the fuck out of my business and I will stay out of yours as long as there is no harm being done.  You apply this for example whether you like/dislike or agree/disagree with the entire LGBTQ community. The main arguments for libertarianism are property rights, autonomy, limited government, and fiscal conservatism.  That's all inherently right leaning. This is why you see senators and represenatives with liberarian leanins in the GOP.  I can't think of any dem you would identify with libertarian leanings. 

posted by like_that

Libertarians are more stay the fuck out of my business and I will stay out of yours as long as there is no harm being done. 

But that's pretty much classic liberalism.  Classic conservatism is more statist in nature, and cultural values rooted in religion (as opposed to individual liberty).

Like I've said before, the left is not classic liberalism...they've moved so far left they are starting to circle all the way around to fascism.

Ahhh, yes. You guys are definitely not republicans/right wing. You’re libertarians! You actually lean left but you just APPEAR to be right leaning because those darn lefties have just pushed so far left!

never change, OC, never change. 

posted by SportsAndLady

Ahhh, yes. You guys are definitely not republicans/right wing. You’re libertarians! You actually lean left but you just APPEAR to be right leaning because those darn lefties have just pushed so far left!

never change, OC, never change. 

LOL, you seem to be taking on the roll of Sleeper....does this mean you will be leaving us soon?

You can't be that dense to disagree with what I said about Libertarian and classic liberalism....you just be like "derp....right winger", which is a classic libtard response.  Maybe you were Sleeper all this time?

Maybe you were too young to notice, but about 20 years ago Democrats wanted to do away with labels and instead focused on the individual and uniqueness, wanting to eliminate the entire concept of gender, for example.  They were much more about tolerance, as opposed to today's goals of forced accomodation.  So, yes, 20 years ago that party was very much more classic liberalism....but have today moved much further left.

That's all for today's lesson.

posted by SportsAndLady

Ahhh, yes. You guys are definitely not republicans/right wing. You’re libertarians! You actually lean left but you just APPEAR to be right leaning because those darn lefties have just pushed so far left!

never change, OC, never change. 

I would argue you are more Republican than gut or me, but please continue to avoid simple questions (because you don't have a legitimate answer) for the sake of trying too hard to troll and pretend you are different than everyone else on this site lol. 

posted by gut

LOL, you seem to be taking on the roll of Sleeper....does this mean you will be leaving us soon?

You can't be that dense to disagree with what I said about Libertarian and classic liberalism....you just be like "derp....right winger", which is a classic libtard response.  Maybe you were Sleeper all this time?

Maybe you were too young to notice, but about 20 years ago Democrats wanted to do away with labels and instead focused on the individual and uniqueness, wanting to eliminate the entire concept of gender, for example.  They were much more about tolerance, as opposed to today's goals of forced accomodation.  So, yes, 20 years ago that party was very much more classic liberalism....but have today moved much further left.

That's all for today's lesson.

So this is the part where you call people trolls or a completely other poster (that you didn’t agree with) because they call you out? So far so good, this all checks out!

posted by SportsAndLady

Lol. You quoted your own post. You were attempting to smear him because he leads with his sexuality. When in fact he doesn’t. 

How are we supposed to have a fair and decent conversation when you (sometimes) post non-factual info? 

But he is using/leads with his sexuality with regards to the Pence feud. That maybe the only case but it is still a case where he does lead with it. 

posted by like_that

I don't think anyone ever argued that the OC wasn't right winged.  Even when the bulk of the left wing posters were active on this site, it was still a right leaning website.  If you didn't know that, you obviously were not active in the politics forum enough to give a fuck. 

My question as it was 2-3 weeks ago, was what is your basis for saying this site all of a sudden moved much more to the right?  I can see the argument that the left wing posters aren't around anymore to counteract the right wing arguments, but that was not your argument.  You claimed this site has moved further to the right (as in the posters ideologies have moved to the right) and so far the only argument to support this is you saying  "if you can't see it I don't know what to tell you."  Thus why I said it was a weak and lazy argument.  I think most of the active political posters on this site have remained principled with their beliefs whether you like them or not.  

To me, like you said, this site (and also the old Huddle) were always right-leaning. Hell, I remember laughing my ass off in '08 on the old Huddle because of how many middle-aged and older dudes were rockin' those Palin avatars (with probably half or so not even including McCain) in what looked like a comical "our side's done got a MILF, so vote R!!!!!" kind of thing. I'd say the main difference now, other than how any left "opposition" is far more sporadic, is the over-the-top anti-progressive sentiment. Which mainly comes from a handful of people who (a) dedicate a legit amount of their time scouring the Internet for Stupid Progressive stories and (b) seemingly treat random opinions by some nobody as equally noteworthy or important as something that an actual progressive politician whose opinions could actually have a say in policy says or does.

posted by gut

LOL, you seem to be taking on the roll of Sleeper....does this mean you will be leaving us soon?

You can't be that dense to disagree with what I said about Libertarian and classic liberalism....you just be like "derp....right winger", which is a classic libtard response.  Maybe you were Sleeper all this time?

Maybe you were too young to notice, but about 20 years ago Democrats wanted to do away with labels and instead focused on the individual and uniqueness, wanting to eliminate the entire concept of gender, for example.  They were much more about tolerance, as opposed to today's goals of forced accomodation.  So, yes, 20 years ago that party was very much more classic liberalism....but have today moved much further left.

That's all for today's lesson.

To paraphrase Nancy Pelosi of all people dunking on AOC - at the end of the day the loud and shrill identity politics obsessed left is a small element of the Democratic party but every example is trumpeted loudly in conservative media and conservative social media as an example of the crazy left. But, you obsess over them - far left freaks with no political power talking about eliminating gender in magazines nobody reads and twitter trolls - instead of "Republicans" like Trump who is the President and is enacting all of the socialist fiscal and budget policy on steroids that you posted about incessantly while Obummer was in charge.

posted by gut

Ehhh, it's a true [socially] liberal position, that now appears right leaning because the left has gone batshit over identity politics.  And then on fiscal, it's a traditionally conservative position.

I feel like the left reflexively labels libertarians as right-wingers, mainly because everyone that disagrees with them gets labeled right-winger in order to dismiss them.

More broadly, if you are for smaller govt, especially federal - which aligns both socially and fiscally for libertarians - then you are considered at least right-leaning according to the modern big-Fed Democratic party.  The irony is the Repubs aren't really any less big-Fed than Democrats.

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

posted by like_that

Libertarians are more stay the fuck out of my business and I will stay out of yours as long as there is no harm being done.  You apply this for example whether you like/dislike or agree/disagree with the entire LGBTQ community. The main arguments for libertarianism are property rights, autonomy, limited government, and fiscal conservatism.  That's all inherently right leaning. This is why you see senators and represenatives with liberarian leanins in the GOP.  I can't think of any dem you would identify with libertarian leanings. 

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

posted by SportsAndLady

Ahhh, yes. You guys are definitely not republicans/right wing. You’re libertarians! You actually lean left but you just APPEAR to be right leaning because those darn lefties have just pushed so far left!

never change, OC, never change. 

You have no idea what a libertarian is if you say they “lean left” or “lean right”. 

Libertarianism is typically socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So they agree with conservatives fiscal ideas and the classic liberals (NOT modern left) on social ideas. 

posted by jmog

You have no idea what a libertarian is if you say they “lean left” or “lean right”. 

 

Libertarianism is typically socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So they agree with conservatives fiscal ideas and the classic liberals (NOT modern left) on social ideas. 

 

 

Why do you think majority of today's Democratic Party not "socially liberal" on most social issues? That is - where is the Democratic Party for using government power to restrict social freedom more than they were 10 years ago? Left wing trolls with no political power that call you racist don't count.

For example, using the Department of Education to say nationwide that trans kids get to use whatever bathroom they want is pretty much peak social liberalism IMHO lol. 

posted by BoatShoes

Why do you think majority of today's Democratic Party not "socially liberal" on most social issues? That is - where is the Democratic Party for using government power to restrict social freedom more than they were 10 years ago? Left wing trolls with no political power that call you racist don't count.

For example, using the Department of Education to say nationwide that trans kids get to use whatever bathroom they want is pretty much peak social liberalism IMHO lol. 

My comment was that libertarians agree socially with classical liberalism but they do not agree with the modern left. 

posted by jmog

You have no idea what a libertarian is if you say they “lean left” or “lean right”. 

 

Libertarianism is typically socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So they agree with conservatives fiscal ideas and the classic liberals (NOT modern left) on social ideas. 

 

 

And you have no idea what I was saying. I was saying they're not fucking libertarian, they're republicans who either won't admit it (for whatever reason) or they don't realize it.

posted by jmog

My comment was that libertarians agree socially with classical liberalism but they do not agree with the modern left. 

My comment requested you describe what you mean by "modern left" - as far as gov't policy goes I would say the "modern left" is more socially liberally i.e. for less gov't infringement in social and personal liberty issues - than they used to be so libertarians should like that aspect of the "modern left". 

posted by SportsAndLady

And you have no idea what I was saying. I was saying they're not fucking libertarian, they're republicans who either won't admit it (for whatever reason) or they don't realize it.

Will you admit you're Republican?  

posted by like_that

Will you admit you're Republican?  

I believe I am, yes

posted by SportsAndLady

And you have no idea what I was saying. I was saying they're not fucking libertarian, they're republicans who either won't admit it (for whatever reason) or they don't realize it.

So interesting that you know what people believe and they don’t. Can I get that crystal ball? I need the next Mega Millions numbers. 

The posted by BoatShoes

My comment requested you describe what you mean by "modern left" - as far as gov't policy goes I would say the "modern left" is more socially liberally i.e. for less gov't infringement in social and personal liberty issues - than they used to be so libertarians should like that aspect of the "modern left". 

The left has “left” their classical belief in the government not telling us what we should do socially (belief in legalizing some drugs, same sex marriage, etc). The modern left has started to believe in the government telling us what we are allowed to say (proper pronouns) that speech needs to be abridged (micro aggressions), the SJWs, etc. 

Classical liberalism believed in free speech, the modern left shuts down/wants to shut down opposing views. 

And to say that these are “just the fringe” is plain asinine and not paying attention to modern candidates on the left.  Of the current candidates for the DNC for POTUS only really Buttigieg and Gabbard are not pandering to this modern left theology (I am not including Biden yet because he hasn’t declared).

Pelosi is now considered more moderate now and is trying to reign in the new DNC members of the house that have fell off the left wing wagon. Let that sink in, Pelosi, from one of the most liberal districts in the US, is now considered moderate in her party.  The middle and right used to consider her a loon but the new loons are even farther “left”.

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten