posted by Heretic

To me, like you said, this site (and also the old Huddle) were always right-leaning. Hell, I remember laughing my ass off in '08 on the old Huddle because of how many middle-aged and older dudes were rockin' those Palin avatars (with probably half or so not even including McCain) in what looked like a comical "our side's done got a MILF, so vote R!!!!!" kind of thing. I'd say the main difference now, other than how any left "opposition" is far more sporadic, is the over-the-top anti-progressive sentiment. Which mainly comes from a handful of people who (a) dedicate a legit amount of their time scouring the Internet for Stupid Progressive stories and (b) seemingly treat random opinions by some nobody as equally noteworthy or important as something that an actual progressive politician whose opinions could actually have a say in policy says or does.

Thank you for explaining this, since S&L is intellectually incapable of answering a simple question.  I agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by the left shifting further left as data has shown and the type of politicians are being voted.  I said in 2016 the dems would have their own tea party movement, and they currently are dealing with it.  We will see how they handle it.

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

S&L is incapable of explaining this, but thank you for translating for the kids table.  There are definitely those who identify as libertarian but vote for R.  Some do it while holding their noses as they see it as the only option to prevent the dems from winning.  Some do it, because they truly aren't libertarian.  There is also a group who will vote for some Rs that have libertarian leanings (i.e. Paul, Amash, Massie, etc).  If  90% of the GOP held their values and remained as principled as them, I would register as a R again (stopped registering as a R after 2012 election).  I have voted libertarian since the 2012 election, even though the party is a shit show.

Part of S&L's problem is he doesn't realize that most libertarians also hate progressive ideology and therefore a lot of people on this forum whether they are R or L will bash them. 

posted by BoatShoes

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

Not familiar with him, I will check him out. 

posted by justincredible

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

Agreed.  They can't even decide wtf libertarianism and the chariperson is a pandering moron.

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

posted by like_that

Thank you for explaining this, since S&L is intellectually incapable of answering a simple question.  I agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by the left shifting further left as data has shown and the type of politicians are being voted.  I said in 2016 the dems would have their own tea party movement, and they currently are dealing with it.  We will see how they handle it.

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

 

S&L is incapable of explaining this, but thank you for translating for the kids table.  There are definitely those who identify as libertarian but vote for R.  Some do it while holding their noses as they see it as the only option to prevent the dems from winning.  Some do it, because they truly aren't libertarian.  There is also a group who will vote for some Rs that have libertarian leanings (i.e. Paul, Amash, Massie, etc).  If  90% of the GOP held their values and remained as principled as them, I would register as a R again (stopped registering as a R after 2012 election).  I have voted libertarian since the 2012 election, even though the party is a shit show.

Part of S&L's problem is he doesn't realize that most libertarians also hate progressive ideology and therefore a lot of people on this forum whether they are R or L will bash them. 

posted by BoatShoes

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

 

Not familiar with him, I will check him out. 

posted by justincredible

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

 

Agreed.  They can't even decide wtf libertarianism and the chariperson is a pandering moron.

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

 

Blow me dude. Has nothing to do with Buttigueg. That’s a right winged conservative asking a gay person in 2019 to repent. And yet the left are the ones being extreme. 

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

LOL.   wow .....So much effort to say nothing.

posted by SportsAndLady

So this is the part where you call people trolls or a completely other poster (that you didn’t agree with) because they call you out? So far so good, this all checks out!

No, this is the part where I call you an idiot for having no facts or science behind your position.  And trying to troll other people hoping that they are more ignorant than you.

Fortunately for you the world will always need sneakers.

posted by BoatShoes

To paraphrase Nancy Pelosi of all people dunking on AOC - at the end of the day the loud and shrill identity politics obsessed left is a small element of the Democratic party

Do you honestly believe that?  Would you like to make a significant bet?  Where would we draw the line?  Free college?  Free healthcare?  Felons voting?  I'm curious as to what you'd define as "radical left".

posted by jmog

The left has “left” their classical belief in the government not telling us what we should do socially (belief in legalizing some drugs, same sex marriage, etc). The modern left has started to believe in the government telling us what we are allowed to say (proper pronouns) that speech needs to be abridged (micro aggressions), the SJWs, etc. 

 

Classical liberalism believed in free speech, the modern left shuts down/wants to shut down opposing views. 

 

And to say that these are “just the fringe” is plain asinine and not paying attention to modern candidates on the left.  Of the current candidates for the DNC for POTUS only really Buttigieg and Gabbard are not pandering to this modern left theology (I am not including Biden yet because he hasn’t declared).

Pelosi is now considered more moderate now and is trying to reign in the new DNC members of the house that have fell off the left wing wagon. Let that sink in, Pelosi, from one of the most liberal districts in the US, is now considered moderate in her party.  The middle and right used to consider her a loon but the new loons are even farther “left”.

 

 

 

 

You say "The Modern Left wants to shut down speech". Where are the libs with power advocating the force of gov't to restrict conservative speech? SJW's calling people the latest "-ist" on the internet - while I find it stupid - is not even jn the same universe.

There is no movement in the American left to make the GOVERNMENT regulate speech or microagressions or other SJW crap. Again, internet SJW's complaining on twitter, Facebook and blogs nobody reads about what X conservative said being triggering - while idiocy - is not the same as the American left enacting Chinese style gov't regulation of speech, etc.

So this "facist left" really is a phantom menace. There is no one in the American left that wants to use the force of gov't to suppress speech. Idiotic SJW activists in their private, free capacity protesting and using their own free speech to call conservatives racists, etc. is not the same as wanting the gov't to disallow speech deemed offensive. 

I know of no elected Democrat calling for gov't to make content-based restrictions on the first Amendment. 

But hey DJT on the other hand has on multiple occasions floated the prospect of taking away FCC licenses from critical liberal media organizations. But hey, let's worry about liberal nobodies! 

The only issue I can think of where the SJW's have even approached what you suggest - I.e. trying to get gov't to regulate speech related activity offensive to SJW's is in the harassment of "Christian" enterprises that refuse to cater to gays via Civil Rights litigation - and they are losing. 

posted by gut

LOL.   wow .....So much effort to say nothing.

Guy's like Gut vote R down the ticket and call themselves libertarians while also finding that "...well ACTUALLY I'm a libertarian" rarely plays well with women so they go home and post angrily about Obama on Valentines Day. 

posted by gut

No, this is the part where I call you an idiot for having no facts or science behind your position.  And trying to troll other people hoping that they are more ignorant than you.

Fortunately for you the world will always need sneakers.

Peak internet is serious business? 

posted by like_that

Thank you for explaining this, since S&L is intellectually incapable of answering a simple question.  I agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by the left shifting further left as data has shown and the type of politicians are being voted.  I said in 2016 the dems would have their own tea party movement, and they currently are dealing with it.  We will see how they handle it.

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

 

S&L is incapable of explaining this, but thank you for translating for the kids table.  There are definitely those who identify as libertarian but vote for R.  Some do it while holding their noses as they see it as the only option to prevent the dems from winning.  Some do it, because they truly aren't libertarian.  There is also a group who will vote for some Rs that have libertarian leanings (i.e. Paul, Amash, Massie, etc).  If  90% of the GOP held their values and remained as principled as them, I would register as a R again (stopped registering as a R after 2012 election).  I have voted libertarian since the 2012 election, even though the party is a shit show.

Part of S&L's problem is he doesn't realize that most libertarians also hate progressive ideology and therefore a lot of people on this forum whether they are R or L will bash them. 

posted by BoatShoes

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

 

Not familiar with him, I will check him out. 

posted by justincredible

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

 

Agreed.  They can't even decide wtf libertarianism and the chariperson is a pandering moron.

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

 

Richard Cordray was the Dem candidate for governor in Ohio. Looks like the nerd from 30 Rock and was Obama's appointee to the CFPB. Basically a standard liberal Democrat in my view so I was being facetious because Jmog said he voted for him over Mike DeWine when I personally don't see how a libertarian would consider Cordray the lesser of two evils but to each his own. 

posted by like_that

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

 

It would be nice if we could frankenstein a dem candidate together lol. There's probably 1 or 2 things I like from a handful of the dem candidates but as a whole I have to reject them. I like Gabbard wanting to end wars, Yang's wanting to get rid of a lot of bureacracy, etc. In a perfect world we could build the monster from scratch.

But as much as I complain, I do enjoy having my own personal line item veto when it comes to ideology.

Back in 2016 almost every single democrat running for office, locally in my area, was "fired" or ignored.  I think a hefty amount of them have taken that step back and reevaluated what they wanted to chase. And honestly I think it did them a lot of good. Now, I know that the higher up in scale you go the more impossible it is to do that, but it sure would be nice if they did. 

Damn Tulsi Gabbard has the brass!

I can't see myself ever voting for her on most issues but I love this woman!

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

Explain what Graham said that was “insane”? He stated exactly what the Bible actually says and added opinion that Buttigieg is flaunting his homosexuality (Graham maybe wrong here as Buttigieg has really only flaunted it in the Pence feud). 

You believe this is “far right” but in reality this belief was exactly the belief of most/all conservatives just a decade ago. Just because the left and the moderates have drifted left and Graham has stayed the “same” over the last 10 years doesn’t mean he has gone more right. It means he appears to be more right because everyone else has gone left. 

His view and statement are 100% consistent with conservatives of a decade ago or more. Anecdotal Evidence that the “right” has stayed right where they are. 

posted by CenterBHSFan

Damn Tulsi Gabbard has the brass!

I can't see myself ever voting for her on most issues but I love this woman!

I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an anti-war Democrat.

posted by BoatShoes

You say "The Modern Left wants to shut down speech". Where are the libs with power advocating the force of gov't to restrict conservative speech? SJW's calling people the latest "-ist" on the internet - while I find it stupid - is not even jn the same universe.

There is no movement in the American left to make the GOVERNMENT regulate speech or microagressions or other SJW crap. Again, internet SJW's complaining on twitter, Facebook and blogs nobody reads about what X conservative said being triggering - while idiocy - is not the same as the American left enacting Chinese style gov't regulation of speech, etc.

So this "facist left" really is a phantom menace. There is no one in the American left that wants to use the force of gov't to suppress speech. Idiotic SJW activists in their private, free capacity protesting and using their own free speech to call conservatives racists, etc. is not the same as wanting the gov't to disallow speech deemed offensive. 

I know of no elected Democrat calling for gov't to make content-based restrictions on the first Amendment. 

But hey DJT on the other hand has on multiple occasions floated the prospect of taking away FCC licenses from critical liberal media organizations. But hey, let's worry about liberal nobodies! 

The only issue I can think of where the SJW's have even approached what you suggest - I.e. trying to get gov't to regulate speech related activity offensive to SJW's is in the harassment of "Christian" enterprises that refuse to cater to gays via Civil Rights litigation - and they are losing. 

 

Did you not see Clinton call Trump voters all the “ists” in her “basket of deplorables?”

How about Talib openly calling a republican member of Congress IN A HEARING racist?

About to leave for work or I would list more examples. Maybe later tonight. 

Bernie Sanders out there conflating a terrorist's right to vote by scolding racism. He's tying in his position on everybody in prison voting to legislation that Florida just passed.

Breaking news: The Florida House passed legislation that would require people to pay financial obligations as part of their criminal sentence before they can vote again. Bill requires repayment, even if obligation has been converted to a civil lien. The vote was 71-45

To a certain extent he could have a good argument, particularly when a family is generationally poor and can't seem to find a way out of it. But he's focusing all of his points to conflating that the worst of society not being able to vote while in prison to default racism. 

Tsarnaev brothers and Timothy McVeigh. Both committed horrible acts of terrorism. But if we're playing the racism game, one of these things is not like the other. The argument, IMO, is lost right then and there.

People on both sides of the political spectrum have been shouting from the rooftops that the only thing it will take to beat Trump is to not be crazy. And nobody in the public eye seems to have ears that can hear.

posted by CenterBHSFan

Damn Tulsi Gabbard has the brass!

I can't see myself ever voting for her on most issues but I love this woman!

So far Tulsi is my favorite Democrat candidate by far. Buttigieg is second but Tulsi is smart, against “nation building wars”, and I don’t have to agree with all of her positions to believe she is a good person and would do what is/she believes is morally right. 

Unfortunately with today’s DNC she has no shot at the nomination. 

posted by jmog

So far Tulsi is my favorite Democrat candidate by far. Buttigieg is second but Tulsi is smart, against “nation building wars”, and I don’t have to agree with all of her positions to believe she is a good person and would do what is/she believes is morally right. 

 

Unfortunately with today’s DNC she has no shot at the nomination. 

Oh I highly doubt she'll see the main debate stage. Everybody will be forced to either watch her at 11pm or on youtube.

posted by CenterBHSFan

Damn Tulsi Gabbard has the brass!

I can't see myself ever voting for her on most issues but I love this woman!

She's right in this case. We are funding and supporting our own enemies. (As we often do) 

posted by FatHobbit

She's right in this case. We are funding and supporting our own enemies. (As we often do) 

Indeed, it's absurd.  You don't have to look any further than the Vietnam to realize what we are doing does not work. 

posted by CenterBHSFan

Damn Tulsi Gabbard has the brass!

I can't see myself ever voting for her on most issues but I love this woman!

Funny, she has says nothing about Iran or Syria being the other players that spread terror in the region. Her glowing remarks about Assad and his role in the civil war is pretty bad. I give her some credit, but her warm thoughts on Syria are inexecusable. 

posted by like_that

I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an anti-war Democrat.

? Do you not remember Obama in 2008? Obama ran on anti-war and then once he got into office, figured out the reality of being anti-war. 

How about Clinton in 92? 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Funny, she has says nothing about Iran or Syria being the other players that spread terror in the region. Her glowing remarks about Assad and his role in the civil war is pretty bad. 

posted by like_that

I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an anti-war Democrat.

? Do you not remember Obama in 2008? Obama ran on anti-war and then once he got into office, figured out the reality of being anti-war. 

How about Clinton in 92? 

 

I guess my point went over your head?  I clearly remember when Dems were anti war when it was useful to them. Especially when they wanted to dump trash on neocon Bush, Chaney and all of their cronies.

Obama comes in and drones the fuck out of the Middle East.... not a peep from the same anti war crew. It must be nice to have the media and sheep in the bag that badly. 

posted by FatHobbit

She's right in this case. We are funding and supporting our own enemies. (As we often do) 

That's the name of the game. We need dirty allies to offset the bigger threats. It was one of the main reasons we were able to win the Cold War. 

Hell, even go back to World War II. We were allies with the Soviets against the bigger threat, the Nazis. 

I'd rather be in a shady partnership with Pakistan so they do not run to China more and more as an example. 

posted by jmog

Explain what Graham said that was “insane”? He stated exactly what the Bible actually says and added opinion that Buttigieg is flaunting his homosexuality (Graham maybe wrong here as Buttigieg has really only flaunted it in the Pence feud). 

 

You believe this is “far right” but in reality this belief was exactly the belief of most/all conservatives just a decade ago. Just because the left and the moderates have drifted left and Graham has stayed the “same” over the last 10 years doesn’t mean he has gone more right. It means he appears to be more right because everyone else has gone left. 

 

His view and statement are 100% consistent with conservatives of a decade ago or more. Anecdotal Evidence that the “right” has stayed right where they are. 

I do enjoy a good "See it's the left that's moving, the right has always been the haven for prejudiced people hiding behind a book to justify their beliefs!" argument!

posted by like_that

I guess my point went over your head?  I clearly remember when Dems were anti war when it was useful to them. Especially when they wanted to dump trash on neocon Bush, Chaney and all of their cronies.

Obama comes in and drones the fuck out of the Middle East.... not a peep from the same anti war crew. It must be nice to have the media and sheep in the bag that badly. 

You are correct in 08. But, I would say when Obama got into office and realized he could not be anti-war, he switched up his positions, rightly I might add. Also, some of the far left still critized him over the years for his drone strikes. 

posted by Heretic

I do enjoy a good "See it's the left that's moving, the right has always been the haven for prejudiced people hiding behind a book to justify their beliefs!" argument!

If you want to be technical about it. the church as a whole has moved a lot more tolerance than they were 10-15 years ago. So that doesn't really support the right moving more right. Anyone shocked by Billy Graham's son saying homosexuality is wrong is not being truthful.

I'd also like to add that I think it is stupid for people like him to pick and choose sins to complain about.