posted by jmog

So you agree that the DNC funded dossier started the "monitoring" of people in the Trump campaign.

I understand you want to sugar coat some of the words you are using to defend the left here, but I never said directly Obama and I never said directly Trump.

You basically wrote a few paragraphs to say "well you are right, but I am going to change some of the verbage to make it not sound as bad". You are arguing semantics. The Obama administration used a DNC funded fake dossier to get a FISA warrant to spy/monitor people in the Trump campaign. 

It's really much simpler than you are making it out to be.

If you go with his narrative then he is simply saying that the Obama administration was the dumbest people on the planet to think that all that material was actually real.  He doesnt get it both ways.  Either they were all in on spying (obama knew everything) or they were the dumbest people on the planet.  Let him pick.

posted by jmog

So you agree that the DNC funded dossier started the "monitoring" of people in the Trump campaign.

I understand you want to sugar coat some of the words you are using to defend the left here, but I never said directly Obama and I never said directly Trump.

You basically wrote a few paragraphs to say "well you are right, but I am going to change some of the verbage to make it not sound as bad". You are arguing semantics. The Obama administration used a DNC funded fake dossier to get a FISA warrant to spy/monitor people in the Trump campaign. 

It's really much simpler than you are making it out to be.

No. It is more complicated than that as I dispute the fact the dossier started things and played a role. But, I'll let it be as we will never agree on the basic facts. 

You live in your point of view world and I live in mine and we will never see eye to eye on the details. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

No. It is more complicated than that as I dispute the fact the dossier started things and played a role. But, I'll let it be as we will never agree on the basic facts. 

You live in your point of view world and I live in mine and we will never see eye to eye on the details. 

Here is where your argument falls short:

The Dossier has been talked about for years as the reason why the FISA warrants were signed.  There literally has never been anyone (Obama, Clinton, Brennan, Comey) ever dispute that with other evidence they had.  THeir silence is deafening.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Short answer: No. 

Not as short answer because again, we just differ on the facts. Define spying? Actually spy on Trump or members of the campaign, because the issues get mixed up. Do I think Trump himself was spied on, no.

Did the FBI use legal means to investigate Papadopoulos that were located before the dossier, yes. Is that considered spying in your mind? 

Was the dossier the smoking gun, unclear and timeline is mixed on when warrants were issued by the FISA court on other items.  I've read numerous things over the last four years where the FBI had evidence of Pap without any evidence of the dossier to justify the warrant. Same goes for Manafort, which did not have anything to do with the dossier. 

Again, I really do not want to go down this road, because posters on here just do not even agree on the basic facts and timeframe of everything. At this point, it is beating a dead horse for me. 

Unbelievable.

I guess it's fair to assume then, that the democrat House managers are good-to-go with committing fraud at the impeachment trial last week in using purposefully doctored evidence that they themselves doctored. 

posted by QuakerOats

Unbelievable.

I guess it's fair to assume then, that the democrat House managers are good-to-go with committing fraud at the impeachment trial last week in using purposefully doctored evidence that they themselves doctored. 

I guess he's also just going to accept that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon when the evidence clearly shows he didn't.  

posted by ptown_trojans_1

No. It is more complicated than that as I dispute the fact the dossier started things and played a role. But, I'll let it be as we will never agree on the basic facts. 

You live in your point of view world and I live in mine and we will never see eye to eye on the details. 

But it isn’t opinion that the dossier started it, that is factual information that isn’t in dispute. 

posted by jmog

But it isn’t opinion that the dossier started it, that is factual information that isn’t in dispute. 

No, that is in dispute. That is where we disagree and will never see eye to eye. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

No, that is in dispute. That is where we disagree and will never see eye to eye. 

Like I said.....the other side has never disputed this claim by providing any other evidence.  They have never defended their actions with anything.

So no, at this point its not in dispute.  There is nothing to dispute it with.  Just like them, you cannot (or wil not) defend your statement with anything factual.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

No, that is in dispute. That is where we disagree and will never see eye to eye. 

Even the left doesn't dispute that the Steele Dossier is what led to the "investigation". 

posted by jmog

Even the left doesn't dispute that the Steele Dossier is what led to the "investigation". 

You know, fuck it.

According to the OIG Report, the actual Crossfire Hurricane was opened up in July 2016 and it started from the conversation that a friendly government official, from Australia, heard Papadopoulos talking about some shady items. That prompted the FBI to formally open the investigation. Steele was a traditional handler of intel that the FBI used going back to 2010. A field office was handling some of his information, raw information that was unverified. In May 2016 that was forwarded to another field office in NY. However, the Crossfire Hurricane investigation did not get access or information from Steele until September 2016 and then it was only a piece of information as they knew it was not verified. 

Read the report for more information. Chapters 3 and 4 actually explain the timeline of the start of the investigations. 

Now, yes the report goes on to rightly criticize the FBI. However, the report clearly outlines that the Steele Dossier DID NOT lead to the start of the investigation of Crossfire Hurricane. 

https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf

I'll also add that the investigation into Manafort that led to his arrest had nothing to do with Steele as well.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

You know, fuck it.

According to the OIG Report, the actual Crossfire Hurricane was opened up in July 2016 and it started from the conversation that a friendly government official, from Australia, heard Papadopoulos talking about some shady items. That prompted the FBI to formally open the investigation. Steele was a traditional handler of intel that the FBI used going back to 2010. A field office was handling some of his information, raw information that was unverified. In May 2016 that was forwarded to another field office in NY. However, the Crossfire Hurricane investigation did not get access or information from Steele until September 2016 and then it was only a piece of information as they knew it was not verified. 

Read the report for more information. Chapters 3 and 4 actually explain the timeline of the start of the investigations. 

Now, yes the report goes on to rightly criticize the FBI. However, the report clearly outlines that the Steele Dossier DID NOT lead to the start of the investigation of Crossfire Hurricane. 

https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf

I'll also add that the investigation into Manafort that led to his arrest had nothing to do with Steele as well.

From that far right wing USA Today...

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2019/12/09/horowitz-fisa-report-timeline-fbis-russia-probe-carter-page-surveillance/2623350001/

Specifically the October part...It specifically said they went to the FISA report based on the information from Steele to monitor Page. 

I mean come on ptown, the FISA court was given information straight from the Steele Dossier as their main reason for monitoring Page. Read the last paragraph a few times if you still don't want to believe in the facts.

They got the information on Page directly from the Steele Dossier, which was hired/paid for by Fusion GPS, who received the funding from the Clinton and DNC law firm. 

I will say it again for those in the back of the room. It's right there in black and white. What was taken to the FISA court as the main reason for investigation/monitoring/spying was the Steele Dossier funded by the DNC, which has since been proven to be fake/false. 

October 2016

The FBI asks the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for a warrant to eavesdrop on Page. In its application, the FBI says it believes Page "has been collaborating and conspiring" with the Russian government to influence the outcome of the election.

The FBI's application says Page also met with two allies of Russian President Vladimir Putin on his July 2016 trip to Moscow. He spoke with Igor Sechin, president of a Russian energy company, about lifting sanctions against Russia. Igor Nikolayevich Divyekin, a high-ranking Kremlin official, talked to Page about giving the Trump campaign damaging information about Clinton.

Page, in media interviews, had denied meeting with Sechin and Divyekin.

The FBI learned of these meetings from former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele, author of the infamous "dossier" alleging ties between Trump and Russia. Steele had been hired by the research firm Fusion GPS, which received funding from a law firm representing Clinton and the Democratic National Committee, to dig up information about Trump's ties to Russia.

LOL bringing up Manafort as some sort of justification for spying..he was arrested on a process crime.  Same thing Comey, brennen, Clinton, Strok, Page, Weisman all did but they dont eat their own in DC so nothing happened

posted by jmog

From that far right wing USA Today...

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2019/12/09/horowitz-fisa-report-timeline-fbis-russia-probe-carter-page-surveillance/2623350001/

Specifically the October part...It specifically said they went to the FISA report based on the information from Steele to monitor Page. 

I mean come on ptown, the FISA court was given information straight from the Steele Dossier as their main reason for monitoring Page. Read the last paragraph a few times if you still don't want to believe in the facts.

They got the information on Page directly from the Steele Dossier, which was hired/paid for by Fusion GPS, who received the funding from the Clinton and DNC law firm. 

I will say it again for those in the back of the room. It's right there in black and white. What was taken to the FISA court as the main reason for investigation/monitoring/spying was the Steele Dossier funded by the DNC, which has since been proven to be fake/false. 

October 2016

The FBI asks the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for a warrant to eavesdrop on Page. In its application, the FBI says it believes Page "has been collaborating and conspiring" with the Russian government to influence the outcome of the election.

The FBI's application says Page also met with two allies of Russian President Vladimir Putin on his July 2016 trip to Moscow. He spoke with Igor Sechin, president of a Russian energy company, about lifting sanctions against Russia. Igor Nikolayevich Divyekin, a high-ranking Kremlin official, talked to Page about giving the Trump campaign damaging information about Clinton.

Page, in media interviews, had denied meeting with Sechin and Divyekin.

The FBI learned of these meetings from former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele, author of the infamous "dossier" alleging ties between Trump and Russia. Steele had been hired by the research firm Fusion GPS, which received funding from a law firm representing Clinton and the Democratic National Committee, to dig up information about Trump's ties to Russia.

I cited the actual report and you cite the media. 

Are you serious? 

The actual report goes into the process of the FISA court in later chapters. I would refer you to those which is an actual source, and not the media. There in the chapters it actually outlines how the intelligence was used. There, you can get a fuller picture instead of relying on secondary sources. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I'll also add that the investigation into Manafort that led to his arrest had nothing to do with Steele as well.

The entire investigation is dead in the water without the Dossier.  Comey testified, to Congress, that they would not have pursued the FISA warrants without it (which is something entirely different from the media spin that the warrant didn't hinge on it, which of course it didn't because FISA court is basically a rubber stamp).  But what Comey was subtly saying was without the Dossier, the DOJ would not have continued to pursue wire taps on Carter Page.

Manafort and Gates investigations were open - and shelved/buried - well before.  They were dirty as hell.  Of course, they were far from the only people doing such work.  And a BUNCH of swamp rats in DC were tied-up with Ukraine, including a few Obama officials and, as we all know, Hunter Biden.  So nothing happens to Manafor and Gates for this without the Russia hoax, and they were ultimately busted to try to leverage them against Trump.  Again, not saying they weren't dirty as hell, but it seems pretty clear the DOJ would have continued looking the other way....

They used a bunch of "trivial", and probably not uncommon, BS to justify the investigation.  Technically and letter of the law it was justified, but practically speaking it WAS a witch hunt.  Again, Manafort and Gates belong in jail, but you should ask yourself why the investigation had basically been dropped until the Drumpfster came along.

At the end of the day everybody can bicker and pull the semantics game till their hearts are full, but it isn't going to matter because justice didn't prevail for those who want it to. Those who wanted something/anything to go after Trump they got what they wanted it twisted it pretty well. But they didn't get everything they wanted either, did they? He was still president, he still called the media out, he still caught the dems out and their kangaroo court impeached him but the senate rejected it.

It's a draw. That's probably the biggest thing Trump did - he left both sides unsatisfied.

Now, after all this time, can we let this go? 

I wasn't sure where to drop this link, but since it's an election thread, I'll branch off and input an intra-presidential post.

Today in gaslighting, pic.twitter.com/BBc1SoYGtl

— Casey McNeill (@mcneillcasey) February 19, 2021

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I cited the actual report and you cite the media. 

Are you serious? 

The actual report goes into the process of the FISA court in later chapters. I would refer you to those which is an actual source, and not the media. There in the chapters it actually outlines how the intelligence was used. There, you can get a fuller picture instead of relying on secondary sources. 

Are you serious? As said above Comey testified to Congress that they don’t even try the FISA court if not for the Steele Dossier.

That alone means it was the largest reason for the investigation even if there were other reasons as well.

It’s ok to admit when you are wrong ptown.

PTown and Jmog have either of you ever changed you view based upon a post from the other?  

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

PTown and Jmog have either of you ever changed you view based upon a post from the other?  

I'm just looking forward to the next 500 posts of this circular argument concerning the finer points of "who/what is REALLY most responsible-ist" about whatever, while neither shows any interest in remotely conceding any ground. It's kind of like Bird vs. Magic...if the NBA was so small-time that Bird and Magic were literally the only people who cared about their rivalry.

Now, I'll back off and let the pros go back to their arguing with the hopes it's good enough that I can get a good laugh during my lunch break Monday!

Let’s talk about Benghazi some more while we’re at it lol 

posted by jmog

Are you serious? As said above Comey testified to Congress that they don’t even try the FISA court if not for the Steele Dossier.

That alone means it was the largest reason for the investigation even if there were other reasons as well.

It’s ok to admit when you are wrong ptown.

I'll let the report speak for itself. As I said from the start, we won't see eye to eye. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

PTown and Jmog have either of you ever changed you view based upon a post from the other?  

My bad on bringing it up again. It is like we are living in a different world and cannot agree on basic facts. 

posted by CenterBHSFan

I wasn't sure where to drop this link, but since it's an election thread, I'll branch off and input an intra-presidential post.

Today in gaslighting, pic.twitter.com/BBc1SoYGtl

— Casey McNeill (@mcneillcasey) February 19, 2021

I think that is from an upcoming article by Neocon Robert Kagan. Not a surprise from him. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

It is like we are living in a different world and cannot agree on basic facts. 

LOL.  What a smug way of saying "I'm right nanananana boo-boo".

You never cease to make me chuckle with this "I'm a moderate" shtick.

Hey legal eagles, perhaps you have some idea if this is legal:

https://www.trumpvoterlist.org/

Perhaps 4chan at it again?