posted by kizer permanente

I mean... I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything. I admit on here all the time when I’m dumb and fucked up. Talking to people who don’t  think like you generally results in learning something new for me. 

Exactly. No one can know everything. I can appreciate people who don't want to live in an echo chamber.

posted by kizer permanente

I’d argue though that it absolutely matters though when you don’t live in a small homogeneous society though.  The tenets of libertarianism seems to be small/no government. Person rights. And don’t tax me. So either we have to pretend poor people don’t exist and don’t need help, or private industry needs to take care of them. The issue with that is history shows humans exploit other humans, not help them.  

Historically the primary vehicle used to exploit other human beings has been the government.  Libertarians understand government is a necessary evil that needs to be kept limited, balanced, and as small as possible.

posted by majorspark

Historically the primary vehicle used to exploit other human beings has been the government.  Libertarians understand government is a necessary evil that needs to be kept limited, balanced, and as small as possible.

How so exactly ? 

posted by kizer permanente

It’s more than your rights though. It’s the actual country you live in. Is the benefits you experience by living here versus a third world country. And the quality of life you’re able to live bc you’re lucky enough to be here in a wealthy country an not somewhere else. 

Trust me I realize the blessings that I have being born in this country.  I also do not feel any personal guilt about it.  Nor about things that happened centuries ago.

posted by majorspark

Trust me I realize the blessings that I have being born in this country.  I also do not feel any personal guilt about it.  Nor about things that happened centuries ago.

Why would you feel guilt? 

 I think you should recognize a lot of what you enjoy wouldn’t be done without taxing people. 

posted by kizer permanente

How so exactly ? 

Well to start the greatest right we all have is the right to life itself.  Historically governments have been the vehicles to extinguish that right on a mass scale.

posted by kizer permanente

Why would you feel guilt? 

 I think you should recognize a lot of what you enjoy wouldn’t be done without taxing people. 

I am not against all taxes.  Just certain ones.

posted by majorspark

Well to start the greatest right we all have is the right to life itself.  Historically governments have been the vehicles to extinguish that right on a mass scale.

You just pivoted from exploiting people back to rights? 

posted by kizer permanente

I’d argue though that it absolutely matters though when you don’t live in a small homogeneous society though.  The tenets of libertarianism seems to be small/no government. Person rights. And don’t tax me. So either we have to pretend poor people don’t exist and don’t need help, or private industry needs to take care of them. The issue with that is history shows humans exploit other humans, not help them.  

Another issue is if you want a nation of laws, there is no provision in the constitution for taking from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are intended to finance those things specifically enumerated by the constitution as legitimate roles of our federal government. Nothing else.

posted by kizer permanente

You just pivoted from exploiting people back to rights? 

You have heard of war right?  And in this country you can be compelled to fight in one.  I think you are misunderstanding.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Another issue is if you want a nation of laws, there is no provision in the constitution for taking from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are intended to finance those things specifically enumerated by the constitution as legitimate roles of our federal government. Nothing else.

Sure but it doesn’t solve any issues. Everyone’s quality of life deteriorates with a growing poor class. It just affects people at a different pace.  That’s not good for any country. I’d prefer to acknowledge a problem exists and fix it and not pretend it doesn’t til it’s too late  personally . 

posted by majorspark

You have heard of war right?  And in this country you can be compelled to fight in one.  I think you are misunderstanding.

Ah I see what you mean. So what’s the answer?  Would you say it’s entirely possible that there could be a point where a government would have to draft people again to a war, even if just for defense? 

I do agree with you that we shouldn’t be engaging in wars as we currently do though  

posted by kizer permanente

Sure but it doesn’t solve any issues. Everyone’s quality of life deteriorates with a growing poor class. It just affects people at a different pace.  That’s not good for any country. I’d prefer to acknowledge a problem exists and fix it and not pretend it doesn’t til it’s too late  personally . 

Our system allows for upward mobility and greatly supports charity for those who may be poor through no fault of their own.  BIG government stifles upward mobility, leading to shared misery for all, and no way to break out of it.  Individual liberty and economic freedom are incredibly important.

posted by QuakerOats

Our system allows for upward mobility and greatly supports charity for those who may be poor through no fault of their own.  BIG government stifles upward mobility, leading to shared misery for all, and no way to break out of it.  Individual liberty and economic freedom are incredibly important.

Yeah ... that’s the problem though. Charity is awesome but doesn’t come close to funding the social programs to even get the poor class close to living just in poverty level.  

posted by kizer permanente

Ah I see what you mean. So what’s the answer?  Would you say it’s entirely possible that there could be a point where a government would have to draft people again to a war, even if just for defense? 

I do agree with you that we shouldn’t be engaging in wars as we currently do though  

I would think that if the war was just and necessary there would be no need to compel anyone to take part in it as there would be sufficient numbers of the people volunteering to take part in it.  I mean if someone is beating my door in with the intention of killing me and raping my wife I don't need to be compelled to fight.

One could argue our civil war was just yet both sides used conscription.  Also I believe the conscription laws at the time allowed for "rich" people to buy a substitute.

posted by kizer permanente

Sure but it doesn’t solve any issues. Everyone’s quality of life deteriorates with a growing poor class. It just affects people at a different pace.  That’s not good for any country. I’d prefer to acknowledge a problem exists and fix it and not pretend it doesn’t til it’s too late  personally . 

Fine, fix it, but if you insist that the federal government needs to do something to accomplish it (whatever the hell "it" is), modify the constitution to authorize it.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Fine, fix it, but if you insist that the federal government needs to do something to accomplish it (whatever the hell "it" is), modify the constitution to authorize it.

I get what you’re saying. I do wonder, knowing the pace at what Congress works, how effective we can react and repair a situation if it takes a constitutional amendment ? 

posted by majorspark

I would think that if the war was just and necessary there would be no need to compel anyone to take part in it as there would be sufficient numbers of the people volunteering to take part in it.  I mean if someone is beating my door in with the intention of killing me and raping my wife I don't need to be compelled to fight.

One could argue our civil war was just yet both sides used conscription.  Also I believe the conscription laws allowed for "rich" people to buy a substitute.

You’d think so but have you seen what’s available out there lol 

posted by kizer permanente

I get what you’re saying. I do wonder, knowing the pace at what Congress works, how effective we can react and repair a situation if it takes a constitutional amendment ? 

The word "we" that you used is a big part of the point. Congress should not do a damn thing they aren't authorized to do by a document that intentionally limits their power, but allows the people to grant it to them. It's supposed to be deliberate.

posted by queencitybuckeye

The word "we" that you used is a big part of the point. Congress should not do a damn thing they aren't authorized to do by a document that intentionally limits their power, but allows the people to grant it to them. It's supposed to be deliberate.

Again... I get the thinking. You’re acting as a constitutionalist. I get it. Does that help anything? Do you even care? It almost feels like you would rather see the place you live go to hell before someone goes against what our founding fathers said. 

QCB is exactly right.  Article I section 8 clearly spells out congress's power to tax.  Then provides a list as to what it can lay and collect taxes on.

posted by majorspark

I don’t think he’s wrong. I think the far left unfairly complains about capitalism that they’re benefiting from. I do think some on the right don’t care about the negatives of capitalism bc it’s not marginalizing them but someone else. I’m not against capitalism but I’m not for unchecked capitalism. I know we don’t have unchecked capitalism with our regulations and I’m fine with it. I feel greed can’t allow unchecked capitalism. 

posted by kizer permanente

Again... I get the thinking. You’re acting as a constitutionalist. I get it. Does that help anything? Do you even care? It almost feels like you would rather see the place you live go to hell before someone goes against what our founding fathers said. 

I like that the constitution, to the degree it's followed, helps to protect my rights to my life and my property. What protects us under the system you seem to want? Which has the lesser chance of abuse?

posted by queencitybuckeye

I like that the constitution, to the degree it's followed, helps to protects my rights to my life and my property. What protects us under the system you seem to want? Which has the lesser chance of abuse?

I seem to want? You mean the one we live in? I’m not sure what exactly you think I want.