Is it time for private schools to have theyre own playoffs in football

• holdingout

  Thinthickbigred;609237 wrote:Well even if his numbers are correct ..they proove the public school point of view ....When only 5 to 10 % of all schools are private ..Look at the numbers they dont add up ...

  
  ^He doesn't go to Big Red games.
• Rocket08

  Bigdogg;609976 wrote:No one cares how many state titles the rest of the MAC has won. They are public schools that have very little movement between school districts. They do it the right way. They will continues to win regardless of what happens. That has nothing to do with the issue of private schools and schools that have open enrollment and attract kids from large areas across many counties.

  
  Wrong, it has EVERYTHING to do with it
  
  You are just upset because the facts prove that you can't win with the current set-up, but other Public Schools can.
  
  That speaks DIRECTLY about you
  
  I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand
• rmolin73

  

  Sykotyk;609996 wrote:Excuse me? Big Red won in 2005 in the first game of the season, the 2005 D-III semifinal, the 2006 opener, 2007 reg. season game, and 2008 reg. season game. The last two years, the game was bumped in favor of the Rally games with Woodland Hills and McKeesport. Which is why Buchtel got to play Wheeling Central Catholic in Wheeling and Pittsburgh Central Catholic in Turtle Creek.

  
  I meant in title games.
• Bigdogg

  Rocket08;610115 wrote:Wrong, it has EVERYTHING to do with it
  
  You are just upset because the facts prove that you can't win with the current set-up, but other Public Schools can.
  
  That speaks DIRECTLY about you
  
  I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand

  
  I am not even sure what you are babbling about. Everyone knows there are lots of public schools who benefit from some of the same things that the private schools enjoy.
  
  Your making a lot of assumptions that you have no clue about. First off, I have no particular team that I follow. Moved away from the school I attended long ago and do not have kids in school. I see around 25 different teams a year. Talk with lots of administrators, coaches and AD's about the subject. I think I am well qualified to have an opinion on the subject. It matters not to me whether you think the system is fair or not. The majority of people in the public schools think there is a problem. Don't be surprised when it gets addressed, it's long overdo.
• sherm03

  

  Bigdogg;609976 wrote:No one cares how many state titles the rest of the MAC has won. They are public schools that have very little movement between school districts. They do it the right way. They will continues to win regardless of what happens. That has nothing to do with the issue of private schools and schools that have open enrollment and attract kids from large areas across many counties.

  
  Dead wrong. The whole argument is centered around the warped idea that small rural public schools cannot compete with private schools from urban areas in the lower divisions. The 4 public MAC powerhouses prove the exact opposite of that warped idea. The fact is, MAC schools would benefit the most from a multiplier. The small rural schools can't compete with the MAC year in and year out...just like they can't compete with the private schools at the lower level. So if the private schools are not included in the playoffs, the MAC has the easier path. But what I find funny is that there are no MAC supporters that want to see the playoffs separated or the privates moved up. I'm willing to bet that those schools would vote to keep the playoffs how they are. Why would they do that? Because they realize that they are good programs. And that good programs continue to be successful.
  
  Yes, private schools in urban areas get students from surrounding suburbs. However, I've pointed out that MOST of those students from the suburbs attended private grade schools in those areas. As I've proposed before, the only real "fair" solution is to apply the multiplier to everyone. Assign feeder schools to each high school. If the high school gets a student from their feeder school, that student counts as 1. If they get a student from a school that is not their feeder school, that student would count for 1.5 or 2 or whatever. That way, students that attend private grade schools and decide to go to a closed enrollment public high school...those high schools would get hit with a multiplier for that. And open enrollment schools that get kids from outside of their school district would get hit with a multiplier.
• Rocket08

  Bigdogg;610230 wrote: The majority of people in the public schools think there is a problem. Don't be surprised when it gets addressed, it's long overdo.

  
  Not surprisingly, you're wrong again (habits are soooooo hard to break)
  
  You have no idea what the "vast majority" of people in public schools think. You only know what you think, and the handful of other malcontents that you converse with on here think.
  
  The fact is, that this subject has been voted on numerous times by the OHSAA (meaning AD's and Principles) and they have turned it down soundly every time.
  
  As far as change coming soon, hold your breath
• Bigdogg

  Rocket08;610306 wrote:Not surprisingly, you're wrong again (habits are soooooo hard to break)
  
  You have no idea what the "vast majority" of people in public schools think. You only know what you think, and the handful of other malcontents that you converse with on here think.
  
  The fact is, that this subject has been voted on numerous times by the OHSAA (meaning AD's and Principles) and they have turned it down soundly every time.
  
  As far as change coming soon, hold your breath

  
  They turned down having separate tournaments, as well they should. The presentation that was made to the OHSAA last spring included a survey that yes indeed did indicate the vast majority think the current system is not fair. It's been posted on here before, look it up.
• Bigdogg

  sherm03;610247 wrote:Dead wrong. The whole argument is centered around the warped idea that small rural public schools cannot compete with private schools from urban areas in the lower divisions. The 4 public MAC powerhouses prove the exact opposite of that warped idea. The fact is, MAC schools would benefit the most from a multiplier. The small rural schools can't compete with the MAC year in and year out...just like they can't compete with the private schools at the lower level. So if the private schools are not included in the playoffs, the MAC has the easier path. But what I find funny is that there are no MAC supporters that want to see the playoffs separated or the privates moved up. I'm willing to bet that those schools would vote to keep the playoffs how they are. Why would they do that? Because they realize that they are good programs. And that good programs continue to be successful.
  
  Yes, private schools in urban areas get students from surrounding suburbs. However, I've pointed out that MOST of those students from the suburbs attended private grade schools in those areas. As I've proposed before, the only real "fair" solution is to apply the multiplier to everyone. Assign feeder schools to each high school. If the high school gets a student from their feeder school, that student counts as 1. If they get a student from a school that is not their feeder school, that student would count for 1.5 or 2 or whatever. That way, students that attend private grade schools and decide to go to a closed enrollment public high school...those high schools would get hit with a multiplier for that. And open enrollment schools that get kids from outside of their school district would get hit with a multiplier.

  
  I have not read all of the posts on here, but I don't believe anyone has said one thing about the MAC public schools winning. The MAC schools have lots of things going for them that are unique. The kids walking around Mercer county are extremely big tall farm boys, (and girls) with good work ethics, great homogeneous communities, great coaching and no soccer programs. I remember when I first moved here and went to the bars. It was like the land of the giants. If you get out under your rock and watch a few D-6 games around the state, you would see it's a wonder they don't win every year. The overall competition is really not very good at that level. I already have stated in several posts that any multiplier would need to be applied for everyone.
• sherm03

  

  Bigdogg;610416 wrote:I have not read all of the posts on here, but I don't believe anyone has said one thing about the MAC public schools winning. The MAC schools have lots of things going for them that are unique. The kids walking around Mercer county are extremely big tall farm boys, (and girls) with good work ethics, great homogeneous communities, great coaching and no soccer programs. If you get out under your rock and watch a few D-6 games around the state, you would see it's a wonder they don't win every year. The overall competition is really not very good at that level. I already have stated in several posts that any multiplier would need to be applied for everyone.

  You are making my point for me. We both agree that MAC schools are far and away better than almost every D5 and D6 program across the state. We both agree that they do not get many students from outside of their town. We agree that they have great coaching/work ethics/support. I'm taking it one step further and saying that I feel the private schools that do well every year do so for the same reasons. But others on here want to argue that private schools only do well because they have students from outside the city in which they are located.
  
  So what is your idea for a multiplier? I'm interested to see how you would apply it to everyone.
• Rocket08

  Bigdogg;610398 wrote:They turned down having separate tournaments, as well they should. The presentation that was made to the OHSAA last spring included a survey that yes indeed did indicate the vast majority think the current system is not fair. It's been posted on here before, look it up.

  
  lala land
• Dean Wormer

  Delphosfan;609589 wrote:Sorry, dude, but Shadysides was one of the physically weakest teams DSJ has played in years. You could see that as soon as they walked on the field. They might have won one game in the MAC but with the physical pounding they would have taken from the likes of DSJ, Marion Local, Coldwater, St. Henry, Minster, Versailles, etc... I don't know if they would have had a team by the end of the season. Football's a different animal in this part of Ohio.
  
  If you want a piece of the MAC, come on over. Play a road game for a change.

  The almighty Big Red takes on everybody. Unless you are Cardinal Mooney, any team from the MAC, St. Eds, Moeller, etc. They like those teams from Canada, West Virginia, and that power house from DC that they play every year.
• Delphosfan

  Bigdogg;610398 wrote:They turned down having separate tournaments, as well they should. The presentation that was made to the OHSAA last spring included a survey that yes indeed did indicate the vast majority think the current system is not fair. It's been posted on here before, look it up.

  If the survey you're referring to is the one put out by the Wayne County supts, I believe they got returns from less than 50% of the schools in Ohio. Something's telling me the percentage of returned forms was in the 30's but I can't say for sure.
  

  Bigdogg;610416 wrote:I The MAC schools have lots of things going for them that are unique. The kids walking around Mercer county are extremely big tall farm boys, (and girls) with good work ethics, great homogeneous communities, great coaching and no soccer programs.

  You just described DSJ as well. Except for the tall boys.
• Bigdogg

  sherm03;610429 wrote:You are making my point for me. We both agree that MAC schools are far and away better than almost every D5 and D6 program across the state. We both agree that they do not get many students from outside of their town. We agree that they have great coaching/work ethics/support. I'm taking it one step further and saying that I feel the private schools that do well every year do so for the same reasons. But others on here want to argue that private schools only do well because they have students from outside the city in which they are located.
  
  So what is your idea for a multiplier? I'm interested to see how you would apply it to everyone.

  
  1) Private schools put into the same home district as the local public school. All students from outside anyone's home district be counted as 1.5. 2) Multihandicapped students would not be counted for sport classification purposes. 3) Students from 10-12 grades counted instead of 9-11 as is the current practice. 4) Establish an "open" division for the top 15% of the largest schools and any school who would like to compete at that level. 4) Establish 5 equal number divisions from the teams left not in the open division.
• Bigdogg

  Delphosfan;610890 wrote:If the survey you're referring to is the one put out by the Wayne County supts, I believe they got returns from less than 50% of the schools in Ohio. Something's telling me the percentage of returned forms was in the 30's but I can't say for sure.
  
  
  
  You just described DSJ as well. Except for the tall boys.

  
  Would agree with that but add in the fact that DSJ has students come from 4 separate school districts, and 100% of the kids are there because of choice and not because they have to. I don't expect you to understand why the last part is the most important.
• sherm03

  

  Bigdogg;611205 wrote:1) Private schools put into the same home district as the local public school. All students from outside anyone's home district be counted as 1.5. 2) Multihandicapped students would not be counted for sport classification purposes. 3) Students from 10-12 grades counted instead of 9-11 as is the current practice. 4) Establish an "open" division for the top 15% of the largest schools and any school who would like to compete at that level. 4) Establish 5 equal number divisions from the teams left not in the open division.

  
  I can agree with some of your points on there. But I disagree with #1. As an example, Mooney and Ursuline are located in Youngstown. Under your proposal, any student from outside the Youngstown "home district" would count as 1.5. Even though the only catholic grade school left inside that area is St. Christine. What about the kids that live in Boardman, but have attended St. Charles or St. Luke their whole lives? What about the kids that live in Poland, but have attended Holy Family instead of going to Poland Middle School? How about the kids from Struthers that have been at St. Nick their whole lives? What about the kids from Austintown that go to St. Joe/Immaculate Heart of Mary? Mooney and Ursuline get penalized because these private schools are located outside of the Youngstown "home district"...even though the students have been private school students their entire lives?
  
  And your proposal does not apply to everyone. It doesn't take into account when a student graduates from a private grade school and then chooses to go to the closed enrollment public high school. Students from Holy Family in Poland go to Poland high school all the time. So Poland doesn't get penalized for that because the kid lives in Poland? But Mooney would get penalized for the students from Holy Family?
  
  Counting grades 10-12 is a little odd. Schools get realigned every 2 years, correct? So when the divisions go to be realigned this spring, kids that will not be in school next year are going to affect the numbers for the next two years? Just doesn't make sense to me.
  
  I do like the idea for an "open division" though. I think you would have to walk a fine line defining "multihandicapped" students that don't get counted. If I have ADD and dyslexia, I could be considered a multihandicapped student. But I could very easily play sports with those handicaps. I think that would be something that would have to be policed very carefully...or you'll see a lot of kids listed as "multihandicapped."
• Bigdogg

  sherm03;611230 wrote:I can agree with some of your points on there. But I disagree with #1. As an example, Mooney and Ursuline are located in Youngstown. Under your proposal, any student from outside the Youngstown "home district" would count as 1.5. Even though the only catholic grade school left inside that area is St. Christine. What about the kids that live in Boardman, but have attended St. Charles or St. Luke their whole lives? What about the kids that live in Poland, but have attended Holy Family instead of going to Poland Middle School? How about the kids from Struthers that have been at St. Nick their whole lives? What about the kids from Austintown that go to St. Joe/Immaculate Heart of Mary? Mooney and Ursuline get penalized because these private schools are located outside of the Youngstown "home district"...even though the students have been private school students their entire lives?
  
  And your proposal does not apply to everyone. It doesn't take into account when a student graduates from a private grade school and then chooses to go to the closed enrollment public high school. Students from Holy Family in Poland go to Poland high school all the time. So Poland doesn't get penalized for that because the kid lives in Poland? But Mooney would get penalized for the students from Holy Family?
  
  Counting grades 10-12 is a little odd. Schools get realigned every 2 years, correct? So when the divisions go to be realigned this spring, kids that will not be in school next year are going to affect the numbers for the next two years? Just doesn't make sense to me.
  
  I do like the idea for an "open division" though. I think you would have to walk a fine line defining "multihandicapped" students that don't get counted. If I have ADD and dyslexia, I could be considered a multihandicapped student. But I could very easily play sports with those handicaps. I think that would be something that would have to be policed very carefully...or you'll see a lot of kids listed as "multihandicapped."

  
  By home school district I mean the school district that the private school is physically located in. For St Johns, the home school district would be Delphos Jefferson. Same would go for Mooney and Ursuline. You may have to set up attendance zones in the urban areas but that is a slippery slope also. No system is going to be perfect. What needs to be done is it needs to be more fair. The counting of the students in the upper three grades would take care of some of the problems that large urban schools have with drop out rates.
• Delphosfan

  Bigdogg;611211 wrote:Would agree with that but add in the fact that DSJ has students come from 4 separate school districts, and 100% of the kids are there because of choice and not because they have to. I don't expect you to understand why the last part is the most important.

  We can make a list of public schools that have kids from 4+ school districts. It would be a LOOONG one. That list might include several other MAC schools.
  So you're saying kids go to certain public schools because they have to? They don't. I think it would be impossible to find one public school in Ohio where you can't open enroll to another school by choice. It happens all the time.
  
  As for your rules...
  
  1. a student outside our district counts 1.5. I assume you mean that to apply to ALL schools. Try getting that passed by public school superintendents.
  2. multihandicapped students aren't counted. We really need to define handicapped. Marion Local had a young lady with autism on the jv basketball team a few years ago. Under your rule she doesn't count and obviously would be ineligible to play. Right?
  3. count students 10-12 current year instead of 9-11 previous year. Those current year student counts aren't confirmed until after the first of the year usually. Even if it was done mid-October, you don't know what football division you're in until the season's half over? Schools with high dropout rates are not our problem.
  4. open division. If a Div V school chooses to be in the open division they will be worth the same computer points as the rest of the teams in that division?
• Bigdogg

  Delphosfan;611306 wrote:We can make a list of public schools that have kids from 4+ school districts. It would be a LOOONG one. That list might include several other MAC schools.
  So you're saying kids go to certain public schools because they have to? They don't. I think it would be impossible to find one public school in Ohio where you can't open enroll to another school by choice. It happens all the time.
  
  As for your rules...
  
  1. a student outside our district counts 1.5. I assume you mean that to apply to ALL schools. Try getting that passed by public school superintendents.
  2. multihandicapped students aren't counted. We really need to define handicapped. Marion Local had a young lady with autism on the jv basketball team a few years ago. Under your rule she doesn't count and obviously would be ineligible to play. Right?
  3. count students 10-12 current year instead of 9-11 previous year. Those current year student counts aren't confirmed until after the first of the year usually. Even if it was done mid-October, you don't know what football division you're in until the season's half over? Schools with high dropout rates are not our problem.
  4. open division. If a Div V school chooses to be in the open division they will be worth the same computer points as the rest of the teams in that division?

  
  1) I think you can get an overwhelming majority of school supers to agree to this as opposed of keeping the current system. Yes applies to all schools.
  2) Yep there would need to be some guidelines established but this would even things up with the private schools who don't accept many of theses students or the families of these type of students can not afford to pay for private school education.
  3) Again, many of the urban freshman kids drop out before their senior year. Kids are presently counted that are no longer in the schools. This number would be more accurate description as to the actual number of kids that attend the school.
  4) Yep
• sherm03

  

  Bigdogg;612562 wrote:1) I think you can get an overwhelming majority of school supers to agree to this as opposed of keeping the current system. Yes applies to all schools.
  2) Yep there would need to be some guidelines established but this would even things up with the private schools who don't accept many of theses students or the families of these type of students can not afford to pay for private school education.
  3) Again, many of the urban freshman kids drop out before their senior year. Kids are presently counted that are no longer in the schools. This number would be more accurate description as to the actual number of kids that attend the school.
  4) Yep

  
  The more I think about it, the more this idea of counting 10-12 is not a good one. So you're saying that counting seniors who are graduating (and who won't be there) is more accurate than counting the kids who drop out (and who won't be there)?
• BlueJayRay

  sherm03;612637 wrote:The more I think about it, the more this idea of counting 10-12 is not a good one. So you're saying that counting seniors who are graduating (and who won't be there) is more accurate than counting the kids who drop out (and who won't be there)?

  
  How about we "fix" the graduation rate, instead of trying to account for it in our calculations. Any school with a graduation rate of less than 85% will not be eligible for tournament next year... Get the football athletes to do a little politicking with the at risk students.
• Rocket08

  ^^^
  
  Then you'll really hear people quacking about the private Schools. They'll all be eligible
• rmolin73

  

  We'll make the cut
• Thinthickbigred

  How many non catholics do you have in your school % wise?
  How many non catholics do you have on your football squad % wise?
  most very good teams have a big % difference dont they? Let the lies begin.... tell the truth for once catholic school fans ..I know its hard but try to be honest ...
• sherm03

  

  Thinthickbigred;613611 wrote:How many non catholics do you have in your school % wise?
  How many non catholics do you have on your football squad % wise?
  most very good teams have a big % difference dont they? Let the lies begin.... tell the truth for once catholic school fans ..I know its hard but try to be honest ...

  
  I have no idea. Is every kid in a Catholic school Catholic? Definitely not. But what does that have to do with anything? So Catholic schools are only for Catholics? Funny, I thought Catholic schools were founded by churches to offer education to ANYONE. Silly me.
  
  Are you actually implying that only Catholics should go to Catholic schools? If so, then let me ask you this...how many Catholics do you have in your school % wise? How many on your football team % wise?
• Thinthickbigred

  As Ive said in previous posts .If you are a non catholic wanting to go to catholic school it costs double ...If you can however run with a football it costs you nothing ....alot of your schools play both sides of the fence and then you get on your little soap box and talk about how rightious you are ...bullcrap....with you its all about money ...