Ohio Chatter DEV

like_that

friendfromlowry;1619802 wrote:I think you're right about Lebron being a lot better now than he was four years ago. His shooting, IMO, is probably the most improved. The east is also such a pile of shit. I believe that any of the western playoff teams could have given the Heat a better challenge than the east has. But the bolded part is where I disagree. They're probably going to get strong contributions from Wade, Bosh, Allen most nights (nearly 50 points tonight). I think Lebron can reasonably score anywhere from 25-40 points depending on how the game is going. Whatever they get from Andersen, Chalmers, Battier, Cole, and Haslem is gravy at that point. IMO, Wade is what makes them as successful as they are. His style compliments Lebron's so well. When they get out in transition they're nearly unstoppable. I'm trying to recall some of the Cavs teams from that period but I can't think of anyone who did anything like that for Lebron. It was a slow, half-court team filled with guys who couldn't score or create their own baskets. I think Bosh, as inconsistent as he is, would still be head and shoulders better than anyone Lebron had for a teammate in Cleveland.

Other thoughts:
-Fuck Bosh. He plays like trash all series and finally has a game that indicates why he's earning $19 million and everyone's like "OMG BOSH IS BACK YEAH" Worse case scenario is Lebron stays in Miami but if they at least ditch this clown I'd consider it a win.
-The Pacers are such a bunch of trolls (reminds me of Tiernan, actually). They've looked like shit since like March, are trailing 2-1 in the series, have never beat the Heat when it matters most, and still talk trash. Paul George said the Pacers actually outplayed the Heat tonight, and of course Stephenson was trying to get in Lebron's head a couple days ago. Just stop. You're a couple days away from being bounced out of the playoffs by the Heat again.
-I think Ibaka might be able to drag the WCF to game six or seven, but a Spurs - Heat rematch seems inevitable.

I can't post it now since I'm on my phone (and it's actually been posted here before), but if you look at the numbers of lebrons supporting cast last year to the numbers of the his supporting cast from the 2008 and 2009 seasons with the cavs, they are practically identical. It really doesn't matter how it gets done as long as you have the numbers. The east wasn't strong then, but it sure as hell wasn't the pile of shit it is now. Don't let the big names on the heat fool you.

superman

like_that;1619806 wrote:I can't post it now since I'm on my phone (and it's actually been posted here before), but if you look at the numbers of lebrons supporting cast last year to the numbers of the his supporting cast from the 2008 and 2009 seasons with the cavs, they are practically identical. It really doesn't matter how it gets done as long as you have the numbers. The east wasn't strong then, but it sure as hell wasn't the pile of shit it is now. Don't let the big names on the heat fool you.

Yes but the Heat have Erik Spoelstra. He's an unmitigated genius just Robj. And rob knows, because he played organized sports.

like_that

superman;1619828 wrote:And rob knows, because he played organized sports.

I lol'd when he used that card.

KB0938

Spoelstra was handed a dynasty in the midst of probably the worst shape either conference has been in, in years. All he had/has to do is enjoy the ride and let Lebron do his thing. Lebron/Wade/Bosh made Spoelstra "better", not vice versa

Heretic

like_that;1619806 wrote:I can't post it now since I'm on my phone (and it's actually been posted here before), but if you look at the numbers of lebrons supporting cast last year to the numbers of the his supporting cast from the 2008 and 2009 seasons with the cavs, they are practically identical. It really doesn't matter how it gets done as long as you have the numbers. The east wasn't strong then, but it sure as hell wasn't the pile of shit it is now. Don't let the big names on the heat fool you.

I think it's sort of a two-fold thing with the main part of it being the weakness of the East. When LeBron was on the Cavs, you had a still-loaded (if a bit older) Boston team and Orlando before Dwight mentally checked out. It wasn't a particularly deep conference, but it was very top-heavy. Now, the second best team is one that's been in a mental downward spiral for a couple months...but still was good enough to make the conference finals. No comparison.

The other thing is that while the supporting cast has been about equal overall, I'd have to think that having guys like Wade and Bosh on a team winds up counting for a lot more in the postseason than having his old supporting cast, most of whom seemed to fold in crunch time (Mo Williams, amirite?!). Both in terms of having people step up a bit more often in these crucial games and in terms of having the respect to get calls when the team needs a bit of a break.

robj55

The ignorance is too strong on this topic.

robj55

Paul George is a joke for those post game comments last night. What a loser mentality, making excuses. Shows poor leadership, no wonder they can't beat Miami and won't ever win anything.

Automatik

Yeah, he's not doing himself any favors. I'm starting to doubt my previous comments about PG being a "star on the rise."

KB0938

He was upset they lost and saw Miami shot a lot more FT's (not that they werent warranted). I dont think its THAT big of a deal, but it was the wrong thing to say. On the other hand, I dont fully blame PG for them not winning this series (assuming they lose). They have absolutely no bench, aside from Scola. And his Center absolutely laid an egg.

Its pretty much David West, PG and Stephenson vs Bron Wade and Bosh(oh and of course the mastermind coach), obvious who the advantage goes to. Just because a player doesnt get it done in the playoffs vs a dynasty doesnt make him any less of a player. Most great players have had their nemesis in the playoffs, he has plenty of time to overcome that, hell hes what 23?

robj55

KB0938;1619929 wrote:He was upset they lost and saw Miami shot a lot more FT's (not that they werent warranted). I dont think its THAT big of a deal, but it was the wrong thing to say. On the other hand, I dont fully blame PG for them not winning this series (assuming they lose). They have absolutely no bench, aside from Scola. And his Center absolutely laid an egg.

Its pretty much David West, PG and Stephenson vs Bron Wade and Bosh(oh and of course the mastermind coach), obvious who the advantage goes to. Just because a player doesnt get it done in the playoffs vs a dynasty doesnt make him any less of a player. Most great players have had their nemesis in the playoffs, he has plenty of time to overcome that, hell hes what 23?

There is nothing wrong with their bench other than Vogel doesn't know how to use them or isn't using them. CJ Watson, Evan Turner, Copeland, Scola and Mahimi is more than enough but Vogel isn't using them effectively. For example Scola played well in the first half and didn't even see the floor in the third quarter last night while Miami blew the game open. You can't blame them losing on not having a bench or quality depth because they have it. And yes making excuses like that is a huge deal, it's a loser's mentality and not being a leader, no matter what age you are.

KB0938

Of the people you listed Scola is the only one worth a damn, And I did mention him. He is a solid solid bench player and probably should get some more playing time since hes effective. Copeland and Mahimi are the type of players you see during the regular season when your bench isnt shortened like many coaches do in the playoffs, playing either of them excessively would in no way shape or form change this series.

Turner is an absolute dud, for being regarded so highly coming out of college. I said it then(obviously living in buckeye land I was just being a "hater") and I'll say it now. He'll never live up to where he was picked. His ceiling as a player is "average". And he must not even be that right now because Vogel is playing Butler over him, even when hes healthy. The only real thing I question with Vogel is why he didnt play Scola more, especially when Hibbert was struggling and Miami went small. Could of played him or West at the 5 and had your best team out there.

Your definition of quality depth and mine must be way different. Quality depth would be a team like the Spurs, thats depth. What Indiana has is a journeyman scoring guard(Watson) and Scola. Id take Cole, Allen n Andersen over Scola , Watson and Mahimi/Copeland. So nobody has said something in a press conference after a loss that they regret or is just flat out dumb like PG said? I mean James blamed his shooting and a loss on there being sleeves on his jersey this season lol, shit happens when you're in front of the mic and upset. He knows damn well they didnt outplay Miami, he was upset

robj55

KB0938;1619947 wrote:Of the people you listed Scola is the only one worth a damn, And I did mention him. He is a solid solid bench player and probably should get some more playing time since hes effective. Copeland and Mahimi are the type of players you see during the regular season when your bench isnt shortened like many coaches do in the playoffs, playing either of them excessively would in no way shape or form change this series.

Turner is an absolute dud, for being regarded so highly coming out of college. I said it then(obviously living in buckeye land I was just being a "hater") and I'll say it now. He'll never live up to where he was picked. His ceiling as a player is "average". And he must not even be that right now because Vogel is playing Butler over him, even when hes healthy. The only real thing I question with Vogel is why he didnt play Scola more, especially when Hibbert was struggling and Miami went small. Could of played him or West at the 5 and had your best team out there.

Your definition of quality depth and mine must be way different. Quality depth would be a team like the Spurs, thats depth. What Indiana has is a journeyman scoring guard(Watson) and Scola. Id take Cole, Allen n Andersen over Scola , Watson and Mahimi/Copeland. So nobody has said something in a press conference after a loss that they regret or is just flat out dumb like PG said? I mean James blamed his shooting and a loss on there being sleeves on his jersey this season lol, shit happens when you're in front of the mic and upset. He knows damn well they didnt outplay Miami, he was upset

Ian Mahimi was in the rotation when the Mavericks won the title in 2011, so he was good enough for a championship team but can't contribute and be in the rotation on this team? Evan Turner was averaging almost 20 ppg, with 6-7 rpg and 3-4 apg before he was aquired. That's an average NBA player? Your hate of anything OSU affects your point of view and judgment of his game. He may not fit in with this team but that in no way shape or form makes him a dud, that's a ridiculous statement. A "dud" doesn't put up those numbers, playing on a losing team or not. No way in the world that the Pacer's don't have enough quality players and depth to win, they just don't have enough chemistry and aren't made of championship stuff, including Paul George. Cannot believe you are trying to compare those two things, George said he felt they outplayed Miami last night, anyone who watched that game knows that is a ridiculous thing to say, he isn't a leader and it's a loser thing to say that the only reason Miami won was because they shot more free throws period. He should have came out and said we got our asses kicked and have to take it on the chin and be better. You giving him a pass for that is questionable to me.

Automatik

If the series was closer and the game tighter I may give him a pass.

But they just dropped 3 straight and not looking good. He should have kept his mouth shut.

KB0938

He(Turner) was playing on an absolutely horrible team, shooting 15 times a game for 17 points. He did pass decently and rebound decently, I'll give you that. But when you're a career 11 and 5 player, id say you're pretty damn average. your love of anything Ohio related doesnt skew your views at all? Hell you think Lebron should have like 8 MVPs and still to this day refuse to call Oden a bust.

Cant believe I'm comparing 2 players blaming losses in a post game press conference on absolutely stupid reasons. But one is Lebron and he can do no wrong eh? I agree with what PG saying being absolutely stupid, but even "great leaders" and players with a "winning mentality" can get upset in press conferences and say dumb things, obviously.

KB0938

And Mahimi played 9 minutes a game for Dallas in 10-11, he almost doubles that with Indiana this year. Hes puttin up about the exact same numbers this year with almost double the playing time, hes just not worth anything but a body with 6 fouls to give and a few rebounds

robj55

KB0938;1619958 wrote:He(Turner) was playing on an absolutely horrible team, shooting 15 times a game for 17 points. He did pass decently and rebound decently, I'll give you that. But when you're a career 11 and 5 player, id say you're pretty damn average. your love of anything Ohio related doesnt skew your views at all? Hell you think Lebron should have like 8 MVPs and still to this day refuse to call Oden a bust.

Cant believe I'm comparing 2 players blaming losses in a post game press conference on absolutely stupid reasons. But one is Lebron and he can do no wrong eh? I agree with what PG saying being absolutely stupid, but even "great leaders" and players with a "winning mentality" can get upset in press conferences and say dumb things, obviously.

You realize that playing on a bad team makes things more difficult right? You aren't going to get nearly the quality of looks that you would get on a good team that was well coached and had superior talent. His numbers last year were the same as Andre Iguodalas when AI was with Philly and made the All Star game. How can a dud average those numbers but AI be an all star? I said Lebron should have 7, two more from when Steve Nash won back to back MVP's and the year that DRose won it as well. A bust to me is not someone who is injured and didn't have the opportunity to prove themselves on the basketball court. Kwame Brown is a bust, because he was healthy and his game showed him to be so. Oden never got that opportunity so he is not a bust by my own definition. You are really going to sit here and compare a REGULAR SEASON game where someone had an off night shooting and blamed it on a shooting sleeve which disrupted their rhythm, and an Eastern Conference FINALS game, where a guy flat out gets his ass kicked and then lies about it to himself, his teammates, and the media about how they outplayed a team in a game in which they never had the lead and were down by damn near 30 at one point? There is absolutely no comparison. You probably gave Carmelo a pass a few years ago too when he got busted for a DUI during the playoffs as well? PG's team was down 2-1 in a pivotal game 4 which was basically must win and those were his post game comments? Give me a break.

robj55

KB0938;1619960 wrote:And Mahimi played 9 minutes a game for Dallas in 10-11, he almost doubles that with Indiana this year. Hes puttin up about the exact same numbers this year with almost double the playing time, hes just not worth anything but a body with 6 fouls to give and a few rebounds

Don't care what he averaged or how many minutes he played, the point remains that he was good enough to be a backup and in the rotation on a championship level team but you don't think he's good enough for this Pacers team.

KB0938

So a player jackin up 15 shots a game for 17 points on a bad team is good? If this were someone else we were talking about and they had that pts per shot ratio youd be all over them. A career 11 n 5 player who comes to a championship caliber team and cant get minutes over a 35 year old Rasoul Butler is obviously not worth much. And as you like to point out so very often, the coaches obviously know whats best and what they can get out of each player.

So let me get this right. You blame PG for having a losers mentality and not being a true leader. But youd rather him belly up and say yeah they kicked our asses, they deserved to win? I mean obviously they did outplay the Pacers and he was talkin out his ass, but youd rather hear him just go completely submissive in his post game interview? Kinda contradicts itself. Either way, I think this is being made a wayyyyyyyy bigger deal than it needs to be. Much like everything that happens in any sport now a days.

KB0938

robj55;1619964 wrote:Don't care what he averaged or how many minutes he played, the point remains that he was good enough to be a backup and in the rotation on a championship level team but you don't think he's good enough for this Pacers team.

Hes playing double the minutes for the Pacers this year, and not doing a damn thing. Just because he played 9 minutes a game for a team that won a title 3 years ago doesnt mean hes worth shit now

Heretic

robj55;1619962 wrote:You realize that playing on a bad team makes things more difficult right? You aren't going to get nearly the quality of looks that you would get on a good team that was well coached and had superior talent.

To give just one example that popped out at me that goes against this point, look at former Buckeye Tony Campbell, who was selected by Minnesota during their expansion draft. He was the main guy on a horrible team for a couple years.

During his three seasons with Minnesota, he averaged 23.2, 21.8 and 16.8 points per game as a starter. Both before and after those three years, with other teams, some of which were upper-tier teams at the time, he played a far lesser role as far as how often he started, the minutes he played and the shots he took. And the only one of those seasons where his shooting % was any worse than his career mark was the second season (the 21.8 one, where he was 43.4% which was about 2% lower than his career.

Dude was a stud while on a garbage team -- anywhere else, he was a role player. I mean, this is the NBA, not a high school league where if a bad team has a very good player on it, everyone will play a junk defense designed to keep that good player under wraps. Instead, if he's good, he'll get his (and with Turner, that was sporadic as hell, as he's the sort who showed with Philly that he could get 22/8/7 lines one day and then 4/5/2 the next -- no consistency) and the other team will just destroy all the nobodies with those match-ups.

Like I said, Tony Campbell put up all-star caliber scoring with expansion Minnesota; everywhere else, he was a role-player. And Turner could be an even worse version of that, considering that with his shooting percentage, he obviously needs a volume of shots to put up decent numbers; if you look at his game log, after a fast start, he quickly entered a "good game, couple bad games" routine (look at his month of December: in 12 games, he was above 50% twice and very close to that mark two more times...and under 40% 7 times, including 2-15, 3-11 and 3-12 games).

robj55

KB0938;1619966 wrote:So a player jackin up 15 shots a game for 17 points on a bad team is good? If this were someone else we were talking about and they had that pts per shot ratio youd be all over them. A career 11 n 5 player who comes to a championship caliber team and cant get minutes over a 35 year old Rasoul Butler is obviously not worth much. And as you like to point out so very often, the coaches obviously know whats best and what they can get out of each player.

So let me get this right. You blame PG for having a losers mentality and not being a true leader. But youd rather him belly up and say yeah they kicked our asses, they deserved to win? I mean obviously they did outplay the Pacers and he was talkin out his ass, but youd rather hear him just go completely submissive in his post game interview? Kinda contradicts itself. Either way, I think this is being made a wayyyyyyyy bigger deal than it needs to be. Much like everything that happens in any sport now a days.

Nope, I've questioned Frank Vogel quite a bit actually, but nice try. A good PPS is around 1-1.3 which he is right in line with. You keep bringing up career stats when he didn't do much his first or second year in the league, players do improve you know? His last two years he was far above an average NBA player, he was playing at a VERY high level all around on both ends for Philly before being traded, he even hit two or three walk off winners. I just told you he had the same numbers as AI when he made the all star game but since Turner did it he is a dud, makes sense. You are making excuses just like Paul George, it's called accountability. PG should have came out and said we got our ass kicked and we have to be better to win this series, that's not being submissive it's being accountable and realistic. Maybe I am making too big of a deal out of it but that statement was just ridiculous given the context of what actually went on.

robj55

Heretic;1619969 wrote:To give just one example that popped out at me that goes against this point, look at former Buckeye Tony Campbell, who was selected by Minnesota during their expansion draft. He was the main guy on a horrible team for a couple years.

During his three seasons with Minnesota, he averaged 23.2, 21.8 and 16.8 points per game as a starter. Both before and after those three years, with other teams, some of which were upper-tier teams at the time, he played a far lesser role as far as how often he started, the minutes he played and the shots he took. And the only one of those seasons where his shooting % was any worse than his career mark was the second season (the 21.8 one, where he was 43.4% which was about 2% lower than his career.

Dude was a stud while on a garbage team -- anywhere else, he was a role player. I mean, this is the NBA, not a high school league where if a bad team has a very good player on it, everyone will play a junk defense designed to keep that good player under wraps. Instead, if he's good, he'll get his (and with Turner, that was sporadic as hell, as he's the sort who showed with Philly that he could get 22/8/7 lines one day and then 4/5/2 the next -- no consistency) and the other team will just destroy all the nobodies with those match-ups.

Like I said, Tony Campbell put up all-star caliber scoring with expansion Minnesota; everywhere else, he was a role-player. And Turner could be an even worse version of that, considering that with his shooting percentage, he obviously needs a volume of shots to put up decent numbers; if you look at his game log, after a fast start, he quickly entered a "good game, couple bad games" routine (look at his month of December: in 12 games, he was above 50% twice and very close to that mark two more times...and under 40% 7 times, including 2-15, 3-11 and 3-12 games).

Every circumstance and situation is different. He is a volume scorer and not a great distance jump shoot, he also needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Everyone knew that coming into the league though, in the right situation he can be a borderline all star player, not a dud. People don't realize that when you go to a team that is already established, sometimes it is hard to fit in and find your role. Also, there are only so many shots to be had on a team, which affects numbers, all things to consider.

robj55

KB0938;1619967 wrote:Hes playing double the minutes for the Pacers this year, and not doing a damn thing. Just because he played 9 minutes a game for a team that won a title 3 years ago doesnt mean hes worth shit now

Okay so we can attribute that to coaching, the players around him, etc. Don't tell me he was good enough for the Mav's rotation but he wasn't good enough for this Pacers team, just makes no sense.

KB0938

Idk is 1-1.3 PPS a good line? Because according to you, Melo, Brandon Jennings, Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose all fall into that range and you on more than once occasion have called each of them selfish, or shot jackers. Lol you're just as biased as you like to point out others are. Just depends on whos being discussed

And coming out and saying we got our ass kicked is having a winners mentality? He just shouldnt of said anything on the matter and left it alone besides the generic coments you hear after every game. But because he didnt, its being blown outta proportion, kinda stupid if you ask me. Oh well

robj55

KB0938;1619973 wrote:Idk is 1-1.3 PPS a good line? Because according to you, Melo, Brandon Jennings, Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose all fall into that range and you on more than once occasion have called each of them selfish, or shot jackers. Lol you're just as biased as you like to point out others are. Just depends on whos being discussed

And coming out and saying we got our ass kicked is having a winners mentality? He just shouldnt of said anything on the matter and left it alone besides the generic coments you hear after every game. But because he didnt, its being blown outta proportion, kinda stupid if you ask me. Oh well

All those guys are more talented than ET, and he's not a shooter, nice try though. And yes having accountability is something winners do, sorry you can't grasp that.

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