2012 Cleveland Browns thread: AKA Pat Shurmur Memorial thread

• Mulva

  

  Dr. KnOiTaLL;1335159 wrote:I agree that Weeden played less than spectacular. Something interesting to ponder, however, is that through 12 games: Brandon Weeden "sucks" and Andrew Luck is "phenomenal" in most people's eyes. However, statistically, Luck and Weeden each have 16 INT's through 12 games, and Weeden is actually completing a higher percentage of passes than Luck (57.04% to 55.47%).
  
  Now, anyone would agree that Luck is a better QB than Weeden, and the gap will be pretty significant when all is said and done, but keep in mind that Weeden is a rookie with a horrible offensive coordinator and head coach. The important thing is that despite his poor performance, he still found a way to drive down the field with the game on the line and punch it in the end zone to get the win. Hopefully, with a new and hopefully better coach next year, he will progress further and make some strides to push us into playoff contention.

  Weeden has had all day to throw all year though. Luck has had to make plays under pressure all season.
  
  That's the biggest difference for me. Luck is missing plays because he's tried to force things with a pocket collapsing. Weeden has been missing things just because he's missing them. Luck also goes downfield much more often, while Weeden has assumed the role of captain checkdown (T-Rich leading the team in receptions).
• Dr. KnOiTaLL

  

  Mulva;1335184 wrote:Weeden has had all day to throw all year though. Luck has had to make plays under pressure all season.
  
  That's the biggest difference for me. Luck is missing plays because he's tried to force things with a pocket collapsing. Weeden has been missing things just because he's missing them. Luck also goes downfield much more often, while Weeden has assumed the role of captain checkdown (T-Rich leading the team in receptions).

  I agree to an extent. Part of that also comes from the west coast system (look at LeSean McCoy in Philly) and part of it also comes from having young and inconsistent wide receivers. It's just like a lot of rookies and their TE's. It's a security blanket. Luck certainly takes more shots downfield, but that's a much bigger part of their offense than it is of the west coast offense. The point I was trying to make and that I've been trying to make all season is that even though he's old, Weeden is still a rookie and there will be a learning curve, even if a normal 29 year old would have reached the learning curve by now.
• Pick6

  

  Dr. KnOiTaLL;1335191 wrote:I agree to an extent. Part of that also comes from the west coast system (look at LeSean McCoy in Philly) and part of it also comes from having young and inconsistent wide receivers. It's just like a lot of rookies and their TE's. It's a security blanket. Luck certainly takes more shots downfield, but that's a much bigger part of their offense than it is of the west coast offense. The point I was trying to make and that I've been trying to make all season is that even though he's old, Weeden is still a rookie and there will be a learning curve, even if a normal 29 year old would have reached the learning curve by now.

  If we are comparing numbers, McCoy has better numbers than Weeden through each of their first 12 games of their careers.
  
  The more I watch, the more Weeden is DA 2.0
• Midstate01

  

  Pick6;1335203 wrote:If we are comparing numbers, McCoy has better numbers than Weeden through each of their first 12 games of their careers.
  
  The more I watch, the more Weeden is DA 2.0

  
  I don't dislike McCoy but its funny that people compare these two. McCoy can't throw a pass over 25 yards. Weeden makes mistakes, too many, but they're usually on throws down the field that McCoy never even looked for. He was too busy dumping it off to the rb after 2 seconds.
• GoChiefs

  

  Tomorrow night at 10, the Travel Channels new show Road Tested will be about the Cleveland Browns.
• Pick6

  

  Midstate01;1335298 wrote:I don't dislike McCoy but its funny that people compare these two. McCoy can't throw a pass over 25 yards. Weeden makes mistakes, too many, but they're usually on throws down the field that McCoy never even looked for. He was too busy dumping it off to the rb after 2 seconds.

  You are aware T-rich is leading the team in receptions this season, arent you?
  
  And enough with the damn myth about Weeden airing it out so much more than McCoy,
  Weeden's YPA- 6.51
  McCoy's YPA- 6.36
  
  Weeden ranks 28th and yard per attempt.
• Midstate01

  

  Pick6;1335503 wrote:You are aware T-rich is leading the team in receptions this season, arent you?
  
  And enough with the damn myth about Weeden airing it out so much more than McCoy,
  Weeden's YPA- 6.51
  McCoy's YPA- 6.36
  
  Weeden ranks 28th and yard per attempt.

  
  You watch the game right?? If you don't SEE the difference, then you're crazy.
• Pick6

  

  Midstate01;1335531 wrote:You watch the game right?? If you don't SEE the difference, then you're crazy.

  The difference you think you see is mostly a myth. The numbers dont lie.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  Midstate01;1335531 wrote:You watch the game right?? If you don't SEE the difference, then you're crazy.

  I was thinking the same thing.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  Pick6;1335535 wrote:The difference you think you see is mostly a myth. The numbers dont lie.

  Well I dont know about the myth, but I know I see Weeden make a 44 yd bomb that Colt McCoy couldn't do.
• like_that

  

  Commander of Awesome;1335537 wrote:Well I dont know about the myth, but I know I see Weeden make a 44 yd bomb that Colt McCoy couldn't do.

  Same, also McCoy doesn't make that pass to MoMass as well.
• Pick6

  

  Commander of Awesome;1335537 wrote:Well I dont know about the myth, but I know I see Weeden make a 44 yd bomb that Colt McCoy couldn't do.

  You see him throw the bomb more. But you also see him checking down to the RB more, turning the ball over more, and completing less % of his passes.
• Crimson streak

  

  Commander of Awesome;1335537 wrote:Well I dont know about the myth, but I know I see Weeden make a 44 yd bomb that Colt McCoy couldn't do.

  
  Agreed. I like weedons skill set he just needs to work on his decision making and accuracy. I'm definitely willing to give him another year for the simple he can make some great throws. I'm hoping he can put it all together next year and actually be a solid qb.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  Weeden also has 100 more yards on the season than McCoy last season, with 1 less game. Weeden has a 6.7 yrd per avg while McCoy had a 5.9. Weeden has also thrown it 30 less times than McCoy at this point last season. I'll take Weeden.
• IggyPride00

  

  http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?year=2011&pos=QB&season=all
  
  Deep Pass Percentage (Deep%) – The proportion of pass targets in which a receiver is greater than 15 yards beyond the line of scrimmage.
  
  2012 - Weeden - 18.5%, 25th in the league.
  
  2011 - McCoy - 14%, 37th in the league.
  
  We are throwing the ball down field more with Weeden. Not as much as I would like, but it is more than we did with Colt.
  
  I expect next year with a real offense and real coach that with some of the offensive weapons we have (Gordon will only improve) that number should increase by a good bit.
• IggyPride00

  

  Crimson streak;1335540 wrote:Agreed. I like weedons skill set he just needs to work on his decision making and accuracy. I'm definitely willing to give him another year for the simple he can make some great throws. I'm hoping he can put it all together next year and actually be a solid qb.

  You can't discount how much he is being crippled by Shurmur.
  
  This is the 4th year in a row a Pat Shurmur led offense has been in the bottom 15% of the league in total yards (not coincidentally that is the only 4 years he has ever been allowed to call plays).
  
  No matter who has been his QB, the production has largely been terrible because his system is terrible.
  
  We will have an Offensive Coordinator next year designing plays that fit and compliment our talent instead of jamming a square peg in a round hole.
  
  Weeden I think would produce a 1,000% better in a more up-tempo spread type attack. Instead he is being relegated to captain checkdown like every other QB in the Shurmur system has been.
  
  He will still make some bad decisions, but he will also have more opportunities to make big plays when the shackles are removed.
  
  4 years of meager offensive production is enough to tell me it is Shurmur that is the problem.
  
  If the team is managing to be as competitive as they are with a bum like Shurmur leading them, what will they look like with real coaching and a real offensive plan that puts them in positions to actually succeed?
• Commander of Awesome

  

  One of the picks wasn't on weeden. Not sure if you could see it on TV or not. He was being stepped on and hi hand was hit by a dlineman as he was throwing, causing the ball to flutter and be under thrown.
• lhslep134

  

  Iggy, by that same token, I think McCoy would thrive in a higher tempo, spread it out a little bit offense like he had at Texas. While Weeden had a good year of college quarterbacking, McCoy had 4.
  
  But Weeden is the starter. And if Shurmer is the problem, which he is, then he should get the first crack in that faster paced offense. However, we should keep McCoy around if we're going to do that because McCoy is a lot better option than most of the backup QBs around the league especially in an offense that isn't checking it down every play.
• lhslep134

  

  We just need to find a freaking QB that has it all lol. McCoy's short pass accuracy + Weeden's deep ball. I was really impressed by Aaron Murrary, and I wouldn't mind Tyler Bray in the 3rd or 4th.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  I honestly feel like I just listened to cleveland radio.
• Dr. KnOiTaLL

  

  Pick6;1335503 wrote:You are aware T-rich is leading the team in receptions this season, arent you?
  
  And enough with the damn myth about Weeden airing it out so much more than McCoy,
  Weeden's YPA- 6.51
  McCoy's YPA- 6.36
  
  Weeden ranks 28th and yard per attempt.

  Actually, taking more shots down the field isn't necessarily going to give you a higher YPA if the passes aren't complete. Completing short passes and getting yards for each of those passes will build your YPA while throwing an incomplete deep ball won't. However, you are correct in that the statistics don't lie, so check this out. In 2011, Colt McCoy attempted 32 passes over 20 yards in 13 games. In 2012, Weeden has attempted 41 passes over 20 yards in 12 games, and average of 3.42 attempts over 20 yards per game. With that in mind, if Weeden's average holds true, he will have attempted 44+ passes over 20 yards in 13 games compared to McCoy's 32 attempts over 20 yards (which happens to be the lowest number in the NFL). That is an increase of 37.5%.
  
  Just some food for thought. Links are listed below to where I got my statistics.
  
  https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/10/going-deep/
  
  http://www.nfl.com/player/brandonweeden/2532970/situationalstats
• Pick6

  

  Dr. KnOiTaLL;1336012 wrote:Actually, taking more shots down the field isn't necessarily going to give you a higher YPA if the passes aren't complete. Completing short passes and getting yards for each of those passes will build your YPA while throwing an incomplete deep ball won't. However, you are correct in that the statistics don't lie, so check this out. In 2011, Colt McCoy attempted 32 passes over 20 yards in 13 games. In 2012, Weeden has attempted 41 passes over 20 yards in 12 games, and average of 3.42 attempts over 20 yards per game. With that in mind, if Weeden's average holds true, he will have attempted 44+ passes over 20 yards in 13 games compared to McCoy's 32 attempts over 20 yards (which happens to be the lowest number in the NFL). That is an increase of 37.5%.
  
  Just some food for thought. Links are listed below to where I got my statistics.
  
  https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/10/going-deep/
  
  http://www.nfl.com/player/brandonweeden/2532970/situationalstats

  Thanks. I dont deny that Weeden airs it out more than McCoy did. However, he also checks down way more than McCoy (can we get a happy medium?). Checking down is what people bitched about constantly with him.
  
  Wonder if there is any correlation in Weeden throwing down the field more because he has an actual deep threat in Gordon, who McCoy never had.
• shook_17

  

  saw some reports saying Mike Lombardi to Cleveland as GM is almost a done deal? SMH if that shit goes down. I might not renew my season tickets, that dude is a joke.
• Crimson streak

  

  shook_17;1336067 wrote:saw some reports saying Mike Lombardi to Cleveland as GM is almost a done deal? SMH if that **** goes down. I might not renew my season tickets, that dude is a joke.

  
  God I hope not
• SportsAndLady

  

  shook_17;1336067 wrote:saw some reports saying Mike Lombardi to Cleveland as GM is almost a done deal? SMH if that shit goes down. I might not renew my season tickets, that dude is a joke.

  Well at least we're hiring a GM, at least.
  
  I'll believe it when I see it..I feel like i've heard this report or something similar about 10 times before.