Breaking Bad: Final Season Discussion

• Laley23

  

  David Chase has even admitted he didnt do a good job explaining the finale.
  

  "Tony was dealing in mortality every day. He was dishing out life and death. And he was not happy. All I wanted to do was present the idea of how short life is and how precious it is. The only way I felt I could do that was to rip it away. And I think people did get it, it made them upset emotionally, but intellectually they didn't follow it. And that could very well be bad execution." David Chase, on The Sopranos' finale, Dec 2012 [LEFT]
  [/LEFT]

• gut

  Laley23;1507272 wrote:David Chase has even admitted he didnt do a good job explaining the finale.

  He didn't make it obvious enough. He's not admitting to he didn't do a good job of writing, just that it wasn't subtle enough. It's all there - "intellectually [people] didn't follow it". Basically he's saying it was too smart for most people - if you missed the Godfather reference then you have no chance of understanding that scene. I'd agree the blackout fell very flat - he obviously didn't intend for most people to be confused that maybe they lost the signal or HBO had a glitch.
  
  I hated it at first, too. But after reading a lot of stuff and seeing some things I missed, and several viewings...it was brilliant. I'll agree that good writing shouldn't be nearly that complicated, but it doesn't change the fact that it was an incredible scene once you understand it. And a lot of people think great writing actually lends itself to multiple compelling interpretations.
• Laley23

  

  And for the record, I along with many people, think the Sopranos ended with him dying. But its just stupid to leave it open ended with a CTB.
  
  As you said, they shot that entire scene (aside from the tracking shot of the man in the members jacket going to the bathroom) from Tonys perspective (at least, as I recall...its been a few years). Tony hears the door, looks up and the camera shot is essentially his eyes. The man goes tot he bathroom, imo, gets a gun or has a gun and is getting an angle where he wont be seen coming back, and shoots tony.
  
  Every time the bell rang in that sentence, they cut to Tonys "eyes". Then the bell rang for Meadow entering the diner, it CTB. Imo, Tony was shot and thats what he was seeing, and in a sense, what we were seeing with the camera cut to his "eyes" at that moment.
  
  You feeling its different is a reason why its lazy writing. Or, maybe a better phrase is indecisive writing. Just pick an ending. It can be ambiguous in nature, but you have to leave more obvious clues for the viewers. He didnt leave nearly enough for us to decide what happens, and thats a shame and bad writing to me.
• gut

  Laley23;1507277 wrote: You feeling its different is a reason why its lazy writing. Or, maybe a better phrase is indecisive writing. Just pick an ending. It can be ambiguous in nature, but you have to leave more obvious clues for the viewers. He didnt leave nearly enough for us to decide what happens, and thats a shame and bad writing to me.

  We can take this to PM if you like, I'll just say you and I mostly agree. I don't think Tony got whacked there, but you and I disagree that it matters. The point is that it's been sufficiently foreshadowed (maybe not obviously enough, but there were enough Godfather references throughout that series that a diligent viewer should have gotten it). We do know what fate awaits Tony, I don't think that part was unclear. Truly great writing is rarely obvious - we could debate if Chase was writing too far out of the medium.
  
  But I think Chase achieved some remarkable things with that scene from a production/visual perspective. Did he exploit the viewer's expectation that this was it for Tony? Sure, but I can't recall being put into the characters shoes like that with such heightened awareness and anxiety. That was what was so masterful - he let you feel what it's like to be in Tony's shoes for a minute...and actually a stark contrast to how comfortable and calm Tony is in that scene. Just another day in the life, but Tony won't see it coming just like we didn't. Chase in his typical cryptic fashion doesn't really contradict any of that.
  
  For my money, the fact that the experience and appreciation for that scene evolves as you watch it more and learn more about it is why it is so amazingly brilliant. Is that what the viewer signed up for? Maybe not, but you take away from that scene what you put into it..which is simply fantastic writing.
• BORIStheCrusher

  

  [video=youtube;IJQc-noLQBM][/video]
  
  Was a bit annoyed watching this scene during the show, but rumors saying this is foreshadowing the end. Actually paying attention it's a bit interesting.
• Laley23

  

  gut;1507279 wrote:We can take this to PM if you like, I'll just say you and I mostly agree. I don't think Tony got whacked there, but you and I disagree that it matters. The point is that it's been sufficiently foreshadowed (maybe not obviously enough, but there were enough Godfather references throughout that series that a diligent viewer should have gotten it). We do know what fate awaits Tony, I don't think that part was unclear. Truly great writing is rarely obvious - we could debate if Chase was writing too far out of the medium.
  
  But I think Chase achieved some remarkable things with that scene from a production/visual perspective. Did he exploit the viewer's expectation that this was it for Tony? Sure, but I can't recall being put into the characters shoes like that with such heightened awareness and anxiety. That was what was so masterful - he let you feel what it's like to be in Tony's shoes for a minute...and actually a stark contrast to how comfortable and calm Tony is in that scene. Just another day in the life, but Tony won't see it coming just like we didn't. Chase in his typical cryptic fashion doesn't really contradict any of that.
  
  For my money, the fact that the experience and appreciation for that scene evolves as you watch it more and learn more about it is why it is so amazingly brilliant. Is that what the viewer signed up for? Maybe not, but you take away from that scene what you put into it..which is simply fantastic writing.

  No need to take it to PM. Im done with it since this is a BB thread lol.
  
  I think we agree for the most part as well. We just disagree with the final CTB. I dont like endings that are that open-ended because I feel it cheats the viewers of a deserved answer. I dont mind endings that take interpretation, but this was just too far for my liking. Thats all.
• Fab4Runner

  

  gut;1507268 wrote:That's the whole point in the shaved/unshaved head - Heisenberg is indeed an alter-ego, and he's gone. The main point of the conversation with Saul wasn't about intimidation to get the number of a "guy who knows a guy" (which he obviously got), but the "friendly advice". Walt resigned himself to living out his final days in peace and anonymity. And on that very first day he goes all the way to that gate, then he shuts it and accepts his sentence. Literally closing the book (door) on Heisenberg.

  How had he resigned himself to that? I never, ever got that sense. Was he incredibly ill and weak? Yes. Had he tried to conjure up Heisenberg and failed? Yep. But I don't think he ever actually resigned. It makes perfect sense that he'd try one more time to do the one thing that was his goal all along.
• BoatShoes

  gut;1506741 wrote:No, it isn't. Shouldn't have been necessary. We've known for a long-time his ego comes first.

  Maybe...but in the Ozymandias it was all about his family and how he had lost it...and we're supposed to take that as Walt's greatest emotional destruction. But really that's all bullshit. That's why Walt is ultimately a piece of shit and the overtures towards his family that constantly swindle us to be on his side are bullshit. It was always about his ego. And he's lying around sulking about it being all for nothing cus his family is gone...but that's all wrong because he took them for granted the whole time anyway.
  
  Remember when he said this:
  

  Doctor, my wife is seven months pregnant with a baby we didn't intend. My fifteen-year old son has cerebral palsy. I am an extremely overqualified high school chemistry teacher. When I can work, I make $43,700 per year. I have watched all of my colleagues and friends surpass me in every way imaginable. And within eighteen months, I will be dead. And you ask why I ran?

  "Providing for his family" was just an excuse. Seeing the immediate instigators to his greed, envy, ego and obsession on t.v. was necessary....if not a little bit serendipitous. That's where we have to be a little less critical of it being far-fetched, etc. I mean at it's not like this is Lost and it's dragging us off in to suspending our disbelief at huge orders of magnitude...
• Laley23

  

  Good catch Boatshoes.
  
  You could make the argument he started to cook to make the money he thought he should have had with Gray Matter.
• se-alum

  

  Let's be honest, gut and MB are really the only people smart enough to know what's really going on here. The rest of us are just sheep willing to consume whatever the writers want to feed us.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  se-alum;1507431 wrote:Let's be honest, gut and MB are really the only people smart enough to know what's really going on here. The rest of us are just sheep willing to consume whatever the writers want to feed us.

  We just have a differing opinion, I have no idea why you are so personally offended by it.
  
  And you're a mod. Slag off.
  
  A lot of this season (and last season, which is the same season) doesn't make any sense. Just like how the fifth season of The Wire didn't. Jesse's entire arc is off. We're supposed to believe he really cares about Andrea and Brock, yet has millions of dollars that can take them away and he just discards it?
  
  If you're too immature to handle a discussion where people might disagree with you, perhaps you should quit the discussion.
  
  No private messaging....I have no idea why you're a mod.
• TedSheckler

  

  Well this thread turned completely to shit.
  
  WE GET IT! The writing is shit. How many continuous posts do you have to justify it? STFU already.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  I think the writing is mostly great. How many times do I need to say it?
  
  Family Guy absolutely nailed this. What is up with over-pretentious Breaking Bad fans that take criticisms personally? We can't discuss the show?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIom3LSbB0I
• Raw Dawgin' it

  

  Fab4Runner;1507295 wrote:How had he resigned himself to that? I never, ever got that sense. Was he incredibly ill and weak? Yes. Had he tried to conjure up Heisenberg and failed? Yep. But I don't think he ever actually resigned. It makes perfect sense that he'd try one more time to do the one thing that was his goal all along.

  I think when he closed the gate and went back to the cabin Heisenberg died. I think that's what he meant by "resigned himself to that."
  
  I'm gonna go throw myself down some stairs now for agreeing a little with gut....
• Tiernan

  I'm gonna go throw myself down some stairs now for agreeing a little with gut....[/QUOTE wrote:
  Please light yourself on fire first so we know the job gets done.

• dlazz

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• Gblock

  im not even convinced that anyone dies...they have been doing so much to make it seem like walt or jesse or both die that i wouldnt be surprised if they didnt. i think of how many times they were in a jam and it looked like they were going to get caught or arressted and got out of it every time. who knows they all could die...ill just sit back and enjoy what should be a great episode..
• BoatShoes

  Manhattan Buckeye;1507445 wrote:I think the writing is mostly great. How many times do I need to say it?
  
  Family Guy absolutely nailed this. What is up with over-pretentious Breaking Bad fans that take criticisms personally? We can't discuss the show?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIom3LSbB0I

  irony
• gut

  Fab4Runner;1507295 wrote:How had he resigned himself to that? I never, ever got that sense. Was he incredibly ill and weak? Yes. Had he tried to conjure up Heisenberg and failed? Yep. But I don't think he ever actually resigned. It makes perfect sense that he'd try one more time to do the one thing that was his goal all along.

  He wanted to get his family the money (which really is Walt, not Heisenberg), but he was at peace with all the rest of it. That was Saul's advice. Walt clearly accepted his sentence - he was done seeking revenge or trying to get the rest of his money back.
• gut

  BoatShoes;1507393 wrote: "Providing for his family" was just an excuse.

  I don't think it was mutually exclusive. He felt obligated to provide for his family, and so Walt Jr. telling him to go stick it with the cash is really his final and ultimate failure.
  
  And actually back to the newspapers...You think a guy starved for any news, especially one with a giant ego, would want to dive-in and read all about the great Heisenberg. And maybe he will, but right now he just wants to talk with another person.
  
  That's not to say his ego doesn't take over. But ultimately I don't think that's his core - he may make bad choices because of ego, but I don't think he's ever actually valued empire over family. He always wanted both - and I've slipped on this too, but I don't think it's that ego is #1 so much as he can't control his ego. And for that matter let's remember that Heisenberg WAS retired, literally (except Hank finds that book, and then Jesse flips out).
• gut

  Manhattan Buckeye;1507439 wrote: Jesse's entire arc is off. We're supposed to believe he really cares about Andrea and Brock, yet has millions of dollars that can take them away and he just discards it?

  Maybe, hadn't really thought about it. They definitely took Jesse the opposite direction to be a foil/contrast to Walt. I'd agree they've made some interesting, if no questionable, choices with the character.
  
  I'm curious to see what they do with Jesse. Maybe we all kind of think Jesse is redeemed/saved, in multiple ways. Whether he's been manipulated or a "holy shit, that escalated quickly" sort of bystander Jesse should be serving a life sentence. Maybe Jesse will do something Walt never had the guts to do which is sacrifice himself to save those he cares for.
  
  
  Now the character that's really gone bizarro is Todd - he's alternately stupid vs. cunning/manipulative, psycho vs. loyal/compassionate, incompetent underling vs. future kingpin. Maybe he's a mash-up of sociopaths, but I think mainly he's just been whatever Vince needs to advance the story. I don't know. Jesse without a moral compass? A combination of Walt and Jesse?
• gut

  One more thought...
  
  Let's assume Walt saw all of that tv clip...I'm thinking maybe he never really taught Todd how to make the blue stuff. So when he sees/hears it's out there then he knows Jesse is still alive.
  
  Then it's anyone's guess, after Walt Jr disowns him, if Walt will want to save Jesse or kill him.
• justincredible

  

  gut;1507641 wrote:Now the character that's really gone bizarro is Todd - he's alternately stupid vs. cunning/manipulative, psycho vs. loyal/compassionate, incompetent underling vs. future kingpin. Maybe he's a mash-up of sociopaths, but I think mainly he's just been whatever Vince needs to advance the story. I don't know. Jesse without a moral compass? A combination of Walt and Jesse?

  I think you’re right. I think that Todd seems to be missing a piece. He seems to be missing a piece. Maybe it’s a piece of empathy; maybe there’s part of his soul that just doesn’t seem to be there. And he doesn’t understand that other people aren’t the same way. I think that’s part of the key, is he sort of thinks in the back of his mind that he and Jesse can still be friends. In his mind, everything he’s done has been logical. You never see Todd doing anything out of pure emotion. There’s a rational explanation for everything that he does, and it’s very clear, but the fact that he doesn’t seem to suffer from any of it is what makes him seem so soulless. I think Jesse Plemons is just brilliant at playing the character. There’s a moment, especially early in the episode, when they’re watching the video of Jesse talking about the train robbery, and he calls Todd the dead-eyed Opie piece of sh–, or something along those lines, and Jesse Plemons gave this little smile like, “Oh, that Jesse. I really like that guy.” And I think he genuinely does like Jesse and he would like for things to be better between them, but he just doesn’t see it.

  http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/09/23/breaking-bad-granite-state-writer/
• Laley23

  

  gut;1507635 wrote:I don't think it was mutually exclusive. He felt obligated to provide for his family, and so Walt Jr. telling him to go stick it with the cash is really his final and ultimate failure.
  
  And actually back to the newspapers...You think a guy starved for any news, especially one with a giant ego, would want to dive-in and read all about the great Heisenberg. And maybe he will, but right now he just wants to talk with another person.
  
  That's not to say his ego doesn't take over. But ultimately I don't think that's his core - he may make bad choices because of ego, but I don't think he's ever actually valued empire over family. He always wanted both - and I've slipped on this too, but I don't think it's that ego is #1 so much as he can't control his ego. And for that matter let's remember that Heisenberg WAS retired, literally (except Hank finds that book, and then Jesse flips out).

  Without re-watching, didnt he have every single clip of Heisenberg cut out and clipped up and highlighted and shit??
• Fab4Runner

  

  Laley23;1507667 wrote:Without re-watching, didnt he have every single clip of Heisenberg cut out and clipped up and highlighted and shit??

  He did.