Women and Minorities: A Question.

• sleeper

  

  FatHobbit;1398015 wrote:I agree somewhat that nobody alive today faced the same discrimination as their parents. But their parents and grand parents faced significant discrimination and they didn't get to start with the same advantages that most white people get. My family was hardly rich but I did have a lot of advantages that other people did not have. (You could argue that poor white people have the same disadvantages as poor black people and I would not disagree) The American dream is that children get to work hard and improve their life so they can have a better life than their parents. When all the parents of a certain group have been repressed, then all of their children are going to start out a little bit farther behind. I don't mind giving them a boost so they can be successful.

  Then perhaps make it based on income and not on race.
• rmolin73

  

  gut;1398062 wrote:Eliminate legacy favoritism from top schools and you do a lot to level the playing field. You'd also have to eliminate weightings for high school, as well.
  
  Harvard and Ivy-league grads obviously have more opportunities than most other schools - start out at a better job and it's a leg-up for all future jobs, graduate school, etc. But what are the chances to go to Harvard for a non-legacy from a public school? Practically 0 unless you are a minority.

  I can't believe there are actual people that believe this.
• O-Trap

  

  rmolin73;1398285 wrote:I can't believe there are actual people that believe this.

  Which part?
• rmolin73

  

  O-Trap;1398287 wrote:Which part?

  The chances of going to Harvard for a non legacy/non minority from a public school is 0. I also find it humorous that someone that complainns about wealth redistribution wants to do away with the legacy favortism from top schools.
• gut

  rmolin73;1398288 wrote:The chances of going to Harvard for a non legacy/non minority from a public school is 0.

  I said practically 0.
  
  30% of the class is legacy.
  25% of the class is minorities.
  11% is international.
  
  So without even differentiating for private vs. public school, you are down to about 550 seats out of about 35k applicants, or 1.5% - chop that in half if you're male. A so-so public school with no AP courses - good luck.
  
  LMAO, what did you think the number was?
• rmolin73

  

  gut;1398289 wrote:I said practically 0.
  
  30% of the class is legacy.
  25% of the class is minorities.
  11% is international.
  
  So without even differentiating for private vs. public school, you are down to about 550 seats out of about 35k applicants, or 1.5% - chop that in half if you're male. A so-so public school with no AP courses - good luck.
  
  LMAO, what did you think the number was?

  That sounds better. That's life IMO if you go to a school with no AP courses you should be aware of your limitations. Isn't the Legacy admittance practice a form of AA for the wealthy?
• O-Trap

  

  rmolin73;1398290 wrote:That's life IMO if you go to a school with no AP courses you should be aware of your limitations.

  Here's the problem I have with that, though: Rarely is it the student's choice what school he attends. So why is it that in this instance of something a student cannot help, it's just an issue of "that's life," and any attempt at fairness goes out the window without any outrage over it?
• gut

  rmolin73;1398290 wrote:That sounds better. That's life IMO if you go to a school with no AP courses you should be aware of your limitations.

  Well, yeah. I oversimplified a bit, but the chances of a non-minority/non-legacy at a public school are many times lower for such candidates. Obviously there are some really great public schools, but when splitting hairs over admits the more competitive and rigorous private school program gives those kids an edge, often a deciding edge.
  
  Harvard isn't all that, though. Just using it as an example. Back to my original point, the top-tier IB and consulting jobs only recruit at a dozen or two undergrads. You can still go that route after a top grad school, but those networks and experience gives them job opportunities most people don't even know exist.
  
  On the other hand, as I've often said if you're a white male but can't get 1 of some 15k seats at a top-15 school ...And odds are your "spot" more likely went to a legacy than a minority.
• gut

  O-Trap;1398291 wrote:Here's the problem I have with that, though: Rarely is it the student's choice what school he attends. So why is it that in this instance of something a student cannot help, it's just an issue of "that's life," and any attempt at fairness goes out the window without any outrage over it?

  While there may be some arguments for legacies (probably weak ones, at best), it's kind of comical to watch academia talk about fairness and equality while actively perpetuating the silver spoon thru legacy admits.
  
  People I've talked to who went to Harvard all say it's pretty shitty how it bifurcates between the have's and have-not's.
• rmolin73

  

  O-Trap;1398291 wrote:Here's the problem I have with that, though: Rarely is it the student's choice what school he attends. So why is it that in this instance of something a student cannot help, it's just an issue of "that's life," and any attempt at fairness goes out the window without any outrage over it?

  I apologize for my harshness but that is just the way I was taught. What I meant was that you are going to have situations like that no matter what. I also understand that most students have no say as to what HS they attend or the curriculum of that school. This falls on the educators and parents. Some parents empower themselves to seek out avenues to give their kids better opportunities while others sit back and complaign about the lack of those opportunities.
  

  gut;1398292 wrote:Well, yeah. I oversimplified a bit, but the chances of a non-minority/non-legacy at a public school are many times lower for such candidates. Obviously there are some really great public schools, but when splitting hairs over admits the more competitive and rigorous private school program gives those kids an edge, often a deciding edge.
  
  Harvard isn't all that, though. Just using it as an example. Back to my original point, the top-tier IB and consulting jobs only recruit at a dozen or two undergrads. You can still go that route after a top grad school, but those networks and experience gives them job opportunities most people don't even know exist.
  
  On the other hand, as I've often said if you're a white male but can't get 1 of some 15k seats at a top-15 school ...And odds are your "spot" more likely went to a legacy than a minority.

  I agree.
• O-Trap

  

  rmolin73;1398294 wrote:I apologize for my harshness but that is just the way I was taught. What I meant was that you are going to have situations like that no matter what. I also understand that most students have no say as to what HS they attend or the curriculum of that school. This falls on the educators and parents. Some parents empower themselves to seek out avenues to give their kids better opportunities while others sit back and complaign about the lack of those opportunities.

  To be honest, this reflects what I see in my own community in general, even outside the educational system, and even in some cases as it pertains to color, gender, etc. Some will either provide better opportunities for their loved ones, or someone will make their own. Others will complain about being forced into less favorable circumstances.
  
  Mind you, I recognize the distinction between a school choice(?) and a protected class, but you have to admit that similarities exist, particularly given the lack of control on the part of the minor. We say that if you don't have parents that go the extra mile to present you with opportunities, then "that's life." But if you have parents who pass a particular color of skin to you, then it is a horrible injustice that must be righted immediately.
  
  The student really has little more control over the school he can attend (I suppose he could skip school, but that's not really bettering his situation or choosing his school). In both scenarios, he can make the best of his situation, but that situation may have its limits, for better or worse.
• Gblock

  likewise students also have no choice to be born in a crappy neighborhood w parents on crack. these are the ones that get sensationalized and overshadow millions of hard working dedicated black people. many of the examples given of "lazy blacks" are children who grew up in horrific situations. for example we just found out that this girl at my school a sixth grader was living at home alone for six months with no electricity because her mom who is on crack was jailed for shoplifting(her 9-10th offense). very sad. I do agree many of these problems are more economic than racial
• sleeper

  

  I don't really care about Harvard or any of those so called "ivy league" schools. They are a joke anyway. I find it ironic that I know about 10 people that went to these schools and none of them are white males; mostly black, asian, or white women.
• Fly4Fun

  

  sleeper;1398316 wrote:I don't really care about Harvard or any of those so called "ivy league" schools. They are a joke anyway. I find it ironic that I know about 10 people that went to these schools and none of them are white males; mostly black, asian, or white women.

  Most people at Ivy League schools are still white... I'm not sure about whether white males or white females are the most populated group. I wouldn't be surprised if it reflects the modern trend that women tend to outnumber males at the undergraduate level.
  
  And saying "so called 'ivy league' schools" is really dumb. That'd be like if I was trying to deride OSU or UM saying the "so called "B1G" schools." It's just the name of the conference.
• sleeper

  

  Fly4Fun;1398318 wrote:Most people at Ivy League schools are still white... I'm not sure about whether white males or white females are the most populated group. I wouldn't be surprised if it reflects the modern trend that women tend to outnumber males at the undergraduate level.
  
  And saying "so called 'ivy league' schools" is really dumb. That'd be like if I was trying to deride OSU or UM saying the "so called "B1G" schools." It's just the name of the conference.

  I'd rather pound salt than say anything respectful about Ivy league schools. :thumbdown:
• FatHobbit

  

  Gblock;1398300 wrote:likewise students also have no choice to be born in a crappy neighborhood w parents on crack. these are the ones that get sensationalized and overshadow millions of hard working dedicated black people. many of the examples given of "lazy blacks" are children who grew up in horrific situations. for example we just found out that this girl at my school a sixth grader was living at home alone for six months with no electricity because her mom who is on crack was jailed for shoplifting(her 9-10th offense). very sad. I do agree many of these problems are more economic than racial

  That kid is screwed through no fault of her own. And she will probably grow up to be a shitty parent and her kids will be screwed too. It's a vicious cycle.
  

  sleeper;1398132 wrote:Then perhaps make it based on income and not on race.

  I'm not sure how (or even if) you would have hiring based on income but I would be fine with that. There are plenty of kids of every race who are born into crappy environments with parents who just don't care. They have no chance from the start.
• sleeper

  

  FatHobbit;1398327 wrote:That kid is screwed through no fault of her own. And she will probably grow up to be a shitty parent and her kids will be screwed too. It's a vicious cycle.
  
  
  
  I'm not sure how (or even if) you would have hiring based on income but I would be fine with that. There are plenty of kids of every race who are born into crappy environments with parents who just don't care. They have no chance from the start.

  I was strictly talking about financial aid to school. There should be ZERO preferential treatment given in regards to race for hiring.
• FatHobbit

  

  sleeper;1398354 wrote:There should be ZERO preferential treatment given in regards to race for hiring.

  This is where we disagree. Maybe little Timmy's dad getting a job leads them to being able to afford a better house in a better neighborhood with better schools. Next thing you know Timmy's life is better, he does a little better in school, he gets a decent job when he graduates and maybe he doesn't suck so bad as a parent when he has kids.
• O-Trap

  

  Gblock;1398300 wrote:likewise students also have no choice to be born in a crappy neighborhood w parents on crack. these are the ones that get sensationalized and overshadow millions of hard working dedicated black people.

  Or just ... people in general. Black doesn't even have to be in that equation. ANYONE with a road block gets overshadowed by the example you mentioned above, as well as others to a lesser degree. But for some reason, some of these road blocks get special exception because they are recognized as such ... almost as though we're trying to make it "fair." Others, on the other hand, draw a "that's life" response. I just fail to see why skin color as a potential road block deserves or requires some special treatment when other potential road blocks, some of which might be even more challenging, deserve a "that's life" attitude. It would seem to me that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If we need to "fix" one to be "fair," shouldn't we have to fix MANY of them to ACTUALLY be fair? By fixing one and not another, aren't we just shifting the preferential treatment?
  

  Gblock;1398300 wrote:many of the examples given of "lazy blacks" are children who grew up in horrific situations. for example we just found out that this girl at my school a sixth grader was living at home alone for six months with no electricity because her mom who is on crack was jailed for shoplifting(her 9-10th offense). very sad. I do agree many of these problems are more economic than racial

  Exactly. If your example above had been a young white male instead of a black girl, do we REALLY think that he would have experienced such an event and not been equally affected? I would certainly hope not. It would be quite a naive notion.
  
  Now, whether or not this kind of event excuses behavior later on is a separate issue, but if we're not going to give a young, white man who goes through this event special treatment, why do we romanticize and make special exception for the young, black woman who does?
  
  It's all just fucked.
• O-Trap

  

  FatHobbit;1398359 wrote:This is where we disagree. Maybe little Timmy's dad getting a job leads them to being able to afford a better house in a better neighborhood with better schools. Next thing you know Timmy's life is better, he does a little better in school, he gets a decent job when he graduates and maybe he doesn't suck so bad as a parent when he has kids.

  And maybe Timmy's dad could be any of several colors.
• Gblock

  O-Trap;1398374 wrote:Or just ... people in general. Black doesn't even have to be in that equation. ANYONE with a road block gets overshadowed by the example you mentioned above, as well as others to a lesser degree. But for some reason, some of these road blocks get special exception because they are recognized as such ... almost as though we're trying to make it "fair." Others, on the other hand, draw a "that's life" response. I just fail to see why skin color as a potential road block deserves or requires some special treatment when other potential road blocks, some of which might be even more challenging, deserve a "that's life" attitude. It would seem to me that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If we need to "fix" one to be "fair," shouldn't we have to fix MANY of them to ACTUALLY be fair? By fixing one and not another, aren't we just shifting the preferential treatment?
  
  
  
  Exactly. If your example above had been a young white male instead of a black girl, do we REALLY think that he would have experienced such an event and not been equally affected? I would certainly hope not. It would be quite a naive notion.
  
  Now, whether or not this kind of event excuses behavior later on is a separate issue, but if we're not going to give a young, white man who goes through this event special treatment, why do we romanticize and make special exception for the young, black woman who does?
  
  It's all just ****ed.

  well it is a good question i dont know why. certainly blacks didnt come up with the law or have enough power to pass it. obviously some people in power felt that after years of being oppressed and denied a lack of education, that many are trapped in a vicious cycle and that one at a time they may be able to reverse/end this cycle. while i agree there are whites in the same situation, we have 8-10 white kids at my school who are just as screwed. maybe they should have just picked their own cotton i guess. around here i do see things getting better one street at a time, one family at a time. i hope sooner than later these laws arent needed honestly. but i think that black schools are inferior for the most part, bad supplies and bad teachers. so they cant score well on some tests. but given the chance to get into a school they may excel well past those who previously were ahead of them. or even change the world.
  
  this kid hasnt even been to school but obviously is intelligent for example
  
  http://www.kxly.com/news/technology/Boy-scares-off-lions-with-flashy-invention/-/5622068/19084824/-/format/rsss_2.0/-/uqeti2z/-/index.html
  
  Otrap'd
• sleeper

  

  FatHobbit;1398359 wrote:This is where we disagree. Maybe little Timmy's dad getting a job leads them to being able to afford a better house in a better neighborhood with better schools. Next thing you know Timmy's life is better, he does a little better in school, he gets a decent job when he graduates and maybe he doesn't suck so bad as a parent when he has kids.

  This has nothing to do with race. If that's the case, why not just give every black man in America a job and see where that leaves you? If Timmy is more qualified then sure he deserves the job. If Timmy is just getting the job because he's a "woe is me black man who needs help over the evil white man to become successful" then he and all your racists can go fuck themselves.
• O-Trap

  

  Gblock;1398380 wrote:well it is a good question i dont know why. certainly blacks didnt come up with the law or have enough power to pass it. obviously some people in power felt that after years of being oppressed and denied a lack of education, that many are trapped in a vicious cycle and that one at a time they may be able to reverse/end this cycle. while i agree there are whites in the same situation, we have 8-10 white kids at my school who are just as screwed. maybe they should have just picked their own cotton i guess. around here i do see things getting better one street at a time, one family at a time. i hope sooner than later these laws arent needed honestly. but i think that black schools are inferior for the most part, bad supplies and bad teachers. so they cant score well on some tests. but given the chance to get into a school they may excel well past those who previously were ahead of them. or even change the world.
  
  this kid hasnt even been to school but obviously is intelligent for example
  
  http://www.kxly.com/news/technology/Boy-scares-off-lions-with-flashy-invention/-/5622068/19084824/-/format/rsss_2.0/-/uqeti2z/-/index.html
  
  Otrap'd

  Oh I agree, the laws were decided by those in power, which honestly, weren't most of us. I have to wonder whether or not it has been as much of a political positioning platform as anything. Either way, I guess I'm just not okay with seeing two people with equally bad situations, choosing to help one based on the color of his skin, choosing not to help the other based on the color of his skin, and thinking it's not a problem.
  
  As for predominantly black schools, I tend to agree with you that they often struggle academically, but again, I think that's more the result of location. The average school with a large black population tends to be urban. I'd be willing to bet that if we could find a predominantly black school in the suburbs or rural areas, we'd see more of a similarity with schools from the same kinds of areas than we would with schools who have roughly the same color percentages from different kinds of areas.
• rmolin73

  

  sleeper;1398388 wrote:This has nothing to do with race. If that's the case, why not just give every black man in America a job and see where that leaves you? If Timmy is more qualified then sure he deserves the job. If Timmy is just getting the job because he's a "woe is me black man who needs help over the evil white man to become successful" then he and all your racists can go **** themselves.

  Thanks Rev.Al Sleeper
• OSH

  

  I have applied at several jobs recently. I no longer put "White" or "Caucasian" in the race category. I leave it blank, if I can.