Sweet 16: (4) Kentucky vs. (1) Ohio State

• Azubuike24

  

  To say Boeheim isn't a "great" is stupid. He's not in the conversation for best ever, but who is? Honestly, outside of Knight, Rupp, K, Smith and Wooden, nobody else is. Calhoun, Boeheim and Roy are right there, and very well could join the group when all is said and done.
• Prescott

  I like Bill Self because he he isn't full of himself. That being said, it is difficult to forget his tournament history at Kansas.
  
  2005 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 13.5 point favorites against Bucknell, lost in the first round, 64-63.
  2006 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 7-point favorites against Bradley, lost in the first round, 77-73.
  2010 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 11-point favorites against Northern Iowa, lost in the second round, 69-67.
  2011 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 11.5-point favorites against VCU, lost in the Elite 8, 71-61.
  
  
  Yes, he won a national championship. But he escaped a #10 seed in the regional final and he needed missed free throws by Memphis and a miracle 3 by Chalmers to defeat the Tigers.
  
  Yesterday. Kansas played tight. Is that Self's fault?
• SportsAndLady

  

  Prescott;727106 wrote:I like Bill Self because he he isn't full of himself. That being said, it is difficult to forget his tournament history at Kansas.
  
  2005 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 13.5 point favorites against Bucknell, lost in the first round, 64-63.
  2006 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 7-point favorites against Bradley, lost in the first round, 77-73.
  2010 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 11-point favorites against Northern Iowa, lost in the second round, 69-67.
  2011 NCAA Tournament: Kansas, 11.5-point favorites against VCU, lost in the Elite 8, 71-61.
  
  
  Yes, he won a national championship. But he escaped a #10 seed in the regional final and he needed missed free throws by Memphis and a miracle 3 by Chalmers to defeat the Tigers.
  
  Yesterday. Kansas played tight. Is that Self's fault?

  
  There's absolutely no defending some of those losses; they were bad. We know.
  
  However, the thing with Bill Self, is that he coaches differently than a lot of coaches; in that, he wants KU to be 35-0 going into every NCAA tourney with a Big 12 conference championship. A lot of coaches now a days will coach their guys to pace themselves for the tourney, say "it's okay to lose 6-9 games a year, just get in the tourney and will take it from there" So waht happens, is Self's teams are usually overseeded and really, a bit overrated, going into the tournament. I mean the guy's won 7 straight big 12 titles and 5 of 7 big 12 tournaments, he's going to get a very good seed every year with those numbers. SOMEONE in the Big 12 has to step up and win some of these, or Self's going to continue to be 30-3 going into the tourney as a 1 seed year after year, when really they should be 27-6 as a 2 or 3 seed when you look at their talent. I mean does anyone really think this year's team had a lot of talent? Outside of the Morris twins, they had Taylor, Reed, Morningstar, Trob, Little, Johnson...those aren't big time players. In 08, he had Arthur, Rush, Chalmers, a young Collins and Aldrich..those are championship players, not the team he had this year...but since the big 12 is pretty bad every year, he wins the league every year and the conf. tourney almost every year, and he coaches his team to win every game instead of pacing themselves....he's going to be a bit overseeded. Just look at that 2006 team; they had 3 seniors who were not good at all, I don't even remember their names because they went on to do nothing; no juniors and a lot of freshman and sophomores...yet they won the big 12 and were overseeded and lost in the 1st round.
  
  Basically what I'm saying is, yes you can't lose to bucknell and bradley and yeah, i get it...but with his style of coaching hes going to take some thumps in the first round...then he's going to win a title. I'm cool with it.
• Prescott

  However, the thing with Bill Self, is that he coaches differently than a lot of coaches; in that, he wants KU to be 35-0 going into every NCAA tourney with a Big 12 conference championship. A lot of coaches now a days will coach their guys to pace themselves for the tourney, say "it's okay to lose 6-9 games a year, just get in the tourney and will take it from there" So waht happens, is Self's teams are usually overseeded and really, a bit overrated, going into the tournament.

  You aren't serious, are you? You really believe that some coaches "pace themselves for the tourney"?? Kansas had enough talent to defeat UCLA, Michigan,USC, and Arizona. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but I'm not buying.
• Con_Alma

  There's a difference between pacing yourself and peaking at season's end.
• SportsAndLady

  

  Prescott;727114 wrote:You aren't serious, are you? You really believe that some coaches "pace themselves for the tourney"?? Kansas had enough talent to defeat UCLA, Michigan,USC, and Arizona. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but I'm not buying.

  
  I'm saying that his teams are generally overseeded because of his win every game, the big 12, and the big 12 tourney mentality...coupled with the fact that barely anyone in the big 12 has been worth a damn in the last 7 or so years.
• SportsAndLady

  

  Con_Alma;727115 wrote:There's a difference between pacing yourself and peaking at season's end.

  
  I would say they are related...you pace yourself throughout the season, take a few losses, receive a moderate seed (4-8) then play the "we get on respect" card when no one picks you to win anything...you really think Stevens at Butler didn't do this? You think he could have gone through the Horizon league with at most 1 loss?
• lhslep134

  

  SportsAndLady;727116 wrote:I'm saying that his teams are generally overseeded because of his win every game, the big 12, and the big 12 tourney mentality...coupled with the fact that barely anyone in the big 12 has been worth a damn in the last 7 or so years.

  
  I quoted the wrong thing but your previous post before this one has to be one of the dumbest things I've read on here
  
  Let me get this straight: Because Bill Self coaches to win every regular season game, his teams become overseeded, which justifies losing to a 13.5 pt dog, a 7 pt dog, a 11 pt dog, and an 11.5 dog?
  
  Holy crap that's some idiotic shit.
• Con_Alma

  SportsAndLady;727117 wrote:I would say they are related...you pace yourself throughout the season, take a few losses, receive a moderate seed (4-8) then play the "we get on respect" card when no one picks you to win anything...you really think Stevens at Butler didn't do this? You think he could have gone through the Horizon league with at most 1 loss?

  I am not speaking to their similarities*. I am speaking about their differences. There's a difference between pacing and peaking at season's end.
  
  I don't think Stevens at Butler was pacing through the Horizon League.
• SportsAndLady

  

  lhslep134;727118 wrote:This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read on here.
  
  Let me get this straight: Because Bill Self coaches to win every regular season game, his teams become overseeded, which justifies losing to a 13.5 pt dog, a 7 pt dog, a 11 pt dog, and an 11.5 dog?
  
  Holy crap that's some idiotic shit.

  
  If you read my first line, you would see that I said I'm not justifying it; it's terrible losses that can't be justified..they were bad.
  
  I said, there are going to be losses like that when you are in a terrible conference that you win every year and receive a seed that is higher than what the talent level says you should be. Self doesn't play the respect card...this is Kansas, everyone respects Kansas and knows they are a threat every year. So he can't just coast through the season and then pull out that card come tourney time, like Stevens can at Butler. He wins a lot of games due to a poor conference, sub-par OOC scheduling, and just his general mentality to win every game you coach. He doesn't teach his players through losses; he teaches them through wins.
• SportsAndLady

  

  Con_Alma;727119 wrote:I don't think Stevens at Butler was pacing through the Horizon League.

  
  You don't think a team in the Final Four was coasting to a 13-5 Horizon finish? That is not a good league, if he really wanted, he could have went 16-2, 17-1 in that league. He could have beaten Evansville College for christ sakes.
• lhslep134

  

  SportsAndLady;727126 wrote:If you read my first line, you would see that I said I'm not justifying it; it's terrible losses that can't be justified..they were bad.
  
  .

  
  Then you didn't need to say anything after that. But in your proceeding paragraphs you put forth an opinion attempting to justify it.
• Con_Alma

  SportsAndLady;727128 wrote:You don't think a team in the Final Four was coasting to a 13-5 Horizon finish?..

  Coasting? Is that like pacing? No I don't think he was pacing. I think he was continuously developing his kids throughout the year. The result was a fantastic showing, again in the NCAA tournament.
• SportsAndLady

  

  lhslep134;727132 wrote:Then you didn't need to say anything after that. But in your proceeding paragraphs you put forth an opinion attempting to justify it.

  
  No no no no no no.
  
  I am not justifying. I am simply saying he is going to have those type of loses, taken everything into consideration. Yes they suck..yes they are bad..yes it's inexcusable....but KU fans are cool with them; he'll win multiple titles for Kansas and that is better than having someone like Roy in there taking them to Final Fours but never winning it all.
• Skyhook79

  

  Jim Boeheim 35 years Coaching:
  
  14 Sweet 16's
  3 Elite 8's
  3 Final 4's
  1 Championship
  8 Big East regular season Champs
  
  Tom Izzo 16 years coaching:
  
  9 Sweet 16's
  7 Elite 8's
  6 Final 4's
  1 Championship
  6 Big Ten regular season Champs
  
  Bill Self 18 years of coaching:
  
  8 Sweet 16's
  6 Elite 8's
  1 Final 4
  1 Championship
  9 Big 12/10 regular season Champs
  
  You be the judge on what should be considered a "Great" Coach. Tom Izzo fits for sure imo. Self has a way to go imo and Boeheim...ehh he has been around a long time to have only 3 Final 4's.
• Azubuike24

  

  SportsAndLady;727128 wrote:You don't think a team in the Final Four was coasting to a 13-5 Horizon finish? That is not a good league, if he really wanted, he could have went 16-2, 17-1 in that league. He could have beaten Evansville College for christ sakes.

  
  Disagree. Butler, had they gone 17-1 or 16-2 in that league, would have had an at-large bid wrapped up, and wouldn't of needed to win the conference tournament on Milwaukee's home floor to make the NCAA's. Sure, Stevens could say he "knew his team would win the Horizon Tournament", but he's not that cocky to really believe that.
  
  I highly doubt he coasted in the Horizon League because that "coasting" this year set his team up to HAVE to win the conference tournament. That would be stupid to put yourself in that position if you didn't have to.
• centralbucksfan

  Prescott;727114 wrote:You aren't serious, are you? You really believe that some coaches "pace themselves for the tourney"?? Kansas had enough talent to defeat UCLA, Michigan,USC, and Arizona. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but I'm not buying.

  
  LMAO..I thought the same thing. What a ridiculous comment. Self coaches "different" than other coaches? Give me a break. There isn't a coach who "paces" his team. They all play to win, period.
  BTW, I was skeptical of Self prior to his title. His title made him legit IMO. But if you took that way (which you can't), as others have pointed out, his teams have lost to some VERY poor teams in terms of the talent he had compared to theirs. Moreso than many others.
  Personally, I like the guy, think he is a VERY good coach (not great). As mentioned above, he is a CLASS act, not full of himself, no ego. No question, he is a current top 5 coach.
• killer_ewok

  

  Skyhook79;727198 wrote:Jim Boeheim 35 years Coaching:
  
  14 Sweet 16's
  3 Elite 8's
  3 Final 4's
  1 Championship
  8 Big East regular season Champs
  
  Tom Izzo 16 years coaching:
  
  9 Sweet 16's
  7 Elite 8's
  6 Final 4's
  1 Championship
  6 Big Ten regular season Champs
  
  Bill Self 18 years of coaching:
  
  8 Sweet 16's
  6 Elite 8's
  1 Final 4
  1 Championship
  9 Big 12/10 regular season Champs
  
  You be the judge on what should be considered a "Great" Coach. Tom Izzo fits for sure imo. Self has a way to go imo and Boeheim...ehh he has been around a long time to have only 3 Final 4's.

  
  And in that long time that Boeheim has been around....33 out of 35 years his team has won 20 or more games in a season. Pretty remarkable if you ask me. You can't get much more consistent than that.
  
  I think if you asked basketball coaches, experts, analysts and relatively objective fans.....the overwhelming majority would say that he's a great coach based on his career.
• SportsAndLady

  

  centralbucksfan;727230 wrote:LMAO..I thought the same thing. What a ridiculous comment. Self coaches "different" than other coaches? Give me a break. There isn't a coach who "paces" his team. They all play to win, period.

  
  My point is, Self coaches a great program in a below average conference. He wins it every year, even if his teams aren't that great. Like I said, look at 2006...3 awful seniors, no juniors, a great recruiting class but they were only freshman (and would eventually win a title)...but they won the big 12, and won the conf. tourney; if they didn't win that tourney, they would have been a 5-7 seed...but since they won, they received a 4 seed and lost to Bradley. You can't argue that. He knows his teams are not as great as they are portrayed, so he has to coach them to win every game so they can get a higher seed and an easier route to the final four. Also why they don't schedule a tough OOC schedule, because they want as good a record as possible. Which is why he has had so many embarrassing upsets.
• reclegend22

  

  SportAndLady wrote:I'm saying that his teams are generally overseeded because of his win every game, the big 12, and the big 12 tourney mentality.

  And this is in opposition to the "win some games, maybe win the conference and at least take the floor and participate in the league tourney and 'see what happens'" approach that coaches like Tom Izzo and Coach K subscribe to? Come on now. You're a very intelligent basketball fan, Sports. There is no way you believe that. That's like believing Tom Izzo only practices his team in the pool using inflatable beach balls in order to keep them refreshed for tournament ball.
  
  With that said, Bill Self is a top five current coach. He is right there behind Coach K, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo and Jim Calhoun. I think Brad Stevens, John Calipari, Rick Pitino, Thad Matta, Jim Boeheim, Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, Gary Williams, Billy Donovan and Sean Miller are in that second tier, though, along with a few others such Bruce Pearl, Mike Anderson, Tony Bennett, etc. knocking on the door just waiting to break through. With Pearl, that opportunity is obviously on hold. There are a lot of very good coaches. Bobby Cremins is a very good coach, but his career is largely on the downswing Great coaches, however, are few and far between. I think Coach K, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Jim Calhoun (bitch) and Rick Pitino are the only truly great ones that still prowl the sidelines. Pitino not as much anymore, but his career as been great.
• reclegend22

  

  SportAndLady wrote:I'm saying that his teams are generally overseeded because of his win every game, the big 12, and the big 12 tourney mentality.

  And this is in opposition to the "win some games, maybe win the conference and at least take the floor and participate in the league tourney and 'see what happens'" approach that coaches like Tom Izzo and Coach K subscribe to? Come on now. You're a very intelligent basketball fan, Sports. There is no way you believe that. That's like believing Tom Izzo only practices his team in the pool using inflatable beach balls in order to keep them refreshed for tournament time.
  
  With that said, Bill Self is a top five current coach. He is right there behind Coach K, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo and Jim Calhoun. I think Brad Stevens, John Calipari, Rick Pitino, Thad Matta, Jim Boeheim, Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, Gary Williams, Billy Donovan and Sean Miller are in that second tier, though, along with a few others such Bruce Pearl, Mike Anderson, Tony Bennett, etc. knocking on the door just waiting to break through. With Pearl, that opportunity is obviously on hold. There are a lot of very good coaches. Bobby Cremins is a very good coach, but his career is largely on the downswing Great coaches, however, are few and far between. I think Coach K, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Jim Calhoun (bitch) and Rick Pitino are the only truly great ones that still prowl the sidelines. Pitino not as much anymore, but his career as been great.
• reclegend22

  

  SportAndLady wrote:I'm saying that his teams are generally overseeded because of his win every game, the big 12, and the big 12 tourney mentality.

  And this is in opposition to the "win some games, maybe win the conference and at least take the floor and participate in the league tourney and 'see what happens'" approach that coaches like Tom Izzo and Coach K subscribe to? Come on now. You're a very intelligent basketball fan, Sports. There is no way you believe that. That's like believing Tom Izzo only practices his team in the pool using inflatable beach balls in order to keep them refreshed for tournament time.
  
  With that said, Bill Self is a top five current coach. He is right there behind Coach K, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo and Jim Calhoun. I think Brad Stevens, John Calipari, Rick Pitino, Thad Matta, Jim Boeheim, Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, Gary Williams, Billy Donovan and Sean Miller are in that second tier, though, along with a few others such Bruce Pearl, Mike Anderson, Tony Bennett, etc. knocking on the door just waiting to break through. With Pearl, that opportunity is obviously on hold. There are a lot of very good coaches. Bobby Cremins is a very good coach, but his career is largely on the downswing. Great coaches, however, are few and far between. I think Coach K, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Jim Calhoun (bitch) and Rick Pitino are the only truly great ones that still prowl the sidelines. Pitino not as much anymore, but his career has been great.
• reclegend22

  

  I left off some names. I think guys like Ben Howland, Tom Crean, John Thompson III, LoRenzo Romar and now Shaka Smart, Chris Mooney and a few others from "mid-majors" are right there, too. As I said, there are so many good coaches around the country. Charlie Coles of Miami is a another good example. There are two kinds of great, as Sports, I think, said earlier. I just said Bill Self was great the other day, and he is when put into the context of today's coaching field. But there is also "career great," the kind of career that is built off of iconic and almost one of a kind accomplishments. As Az said, Dean had that, Rupp had that, Phog had that, Iba had that, Knight had that, K has it and perhaps one day a guy like Roy Williams or Jim Calhoun or Brad Stevens will have it.
• SportsAndLady

  

  reclegend22;727353 wrote:And this is in opposition to the "win some games, maybe win the conference and at least take the floor and participate in the league tourney and 'see what happens'" approach that coaches like Tom Izzo and Coach K subscribe to? Come on now. You're a very intelligent basketball fan, Sports. There is no way you believe that. That's like believing Tom Izzo only practices his team in the pool using inflatable beach balls in order to keep them refreshed for tournament time.

  
  My main point, is that the big 12 has been so down, Self is able to win 30 or more games in 4 of the past 5 seasons, win 7 consecutive big 12 regular seasons, and 5 of 7 conf. tourneys. His teams have not been THAT talented..I mean honestly, how many KU players are doing very well in the NBA that Self has coached? His teams are good, but they're not great...and they are overseeded to the point that people think they are great because of the accomplishments in the big 12, when really they're not. Like I said earlier, Tyshawn Taylor, Morningstar, and Reed are not good starters for a team that is 35-2.
  
  Maybe saying he coaches differently is a stretch...but you can't deny KU's weak OOC schedule every year, and you can't deny how bad the big 12 has been. I truly believe those two things lead to Self's teams looking better than they really are. Hence, the first round upsets.
• Skyhook79

  

  killer_ewok;727289 wrote:And in that long time that Boeheim has been around....33 out of 35 years his team has won 20 or more games in a season. Pretty remarkable if you ask me. You can't get much more consistent than that.
  
  I think if you asked basketball coaches, experts, analysts and relatively objective fans.....the overwhelming majority would say that he's a great coach based on his career.

  
  Boeheim is nortorious for playing weak ooc schedules his whole career. Hardly ever plays away games in ooc.
  
  3 Elite 8's and 3 Final 4's in 35 years at Syracuse? c'mon thats not "great" worthy imo.