Why do you pray?

• sleeper

  

  ernest_t_bass;1057120 wrote:HAHAHA. Oh, hahahahahah. LOL. HAHAH. ROTFLMAO. OHFFHFHAHAHFOAHAFOHAOHFAOAHFohjadl;s jfkl;ajslf.
  
  I lol'd.

  My intentions were not to turn this thread into a religion vs. logic debate. I still have not attacked anyone in this thread.
• osudarby08

  

  This thread has gotten me through a boring lecture at OSU the past hour so thanks.
  
  BTW, I was raised Catholic, pretty sure I'm an atheist now. The more education I have received, the less I can comprehend the idea of religion ( engineering major=tons of science and math. Scientific facts IMO trump any argument)
• sleeper

  

  osudarby08;1057180 wrote:This thread has gotten me through a boring lecture at OSU the past hour so thanks.
  
  BTW, I was raised Catholic, pretty sure I'm an atheist now. The more education I have received, the less I can comprehend the idea of religion ( engineering major=tons of science and math. Scientific facts IMO trump any argument)

  Thankfully, religious belief is on the decline. The internet allows for quicker diffusion of knowledge and knowledge trumps religion any day of the week. The trend I see is my educated friends who were raised under a religious belief no longer support or condone that belief. There was a time where magic was considered a viable scientific theory, and religion will pass too.
• FatHobbit

  

  sleeper;1057190 wrote:There was a time where magic was considered a viable scientific theory, and religion will pass too.

  There was a time when science considered the world to be flat. Science is our best attempt to understand the world we live in, but it is hardly infallible. (see global warming/climate change)
  
  IMHO intolerance of others is a MUCH bigger problem than religion.
• sleeper

  

  FatHobbit;1057217 wrote:There was a time when science considered the world to be flat. Science is our best attempt to understand the world we live in, but it is hardly infallible. (see global warming/climate change)
  
  IMHO intolerance of others is a MUCH bigger problem than religion.

  That's the beauty of science though. It's designed to be vetted continuously.
  
  Intolerance of others is a big problem. Religions are a a huge manifestation of intolerance and more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else.
• Skyhook79

  

  osudarby08;1057180 wrote:This thread has gotten me through a boring lecture at OSU the past hour so thanks.
  
  BTW, I was raised Catholic, pretty sure I'm an atheist now. The more education I have received, the less I can comprehend the idea of religion ( engineering major=tons of science and math. Scientific facts IMO trump any argument)

  http://www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/has-science-disproved-god.htm
• FatHobbit

  

  sleeper;1057222 wrote:That's the beauty of science though. It's designed to be vetted continuously.

  
  Agree with that
  

  sleeper;1057222 wrote:Intolerance of others is a big problem. Religions are a a huge manifestation of intolerance and more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else.

  Seems to me like you are just as intolerant of people who believe differently that you. You're posts here are no different than brother Jed standing in the oval calling the girls whores.

• sleeper

  

  FatHobbit;1057230 wrote:

  sleeper;1057222 wrote:That's the beauty of science though. It's designed to be vetted continuously.

  
  Agree with that
  
  
  
  Seems to me like you are just as intolerant of people who believe differently that you. You're posts here are no different than brother Jed standing in the oval calling the girls whores.

  I'm intolerant of ignorance. I don't act on my intolerance though, unlike the billions that have been killed for their religious beliefs.

• Steel Valley Football

  friendfromlowry;1057095 wrote:Not a logical argument how? You stated on page one that "There are effects of prayer that are not fully understood. Much like people who beat cancer due to positive outlooks and attitudes, which science has no explanation for." My point was that there are literally thousands more that do NOT beat cancer (or heart disease, pneumonia, AIDS, etc) despite having a positive outlook.
  What are the unfounded facts by the way? Thousands of people die each day from the disease I mentioned. That is a fact. Do you think any of those thousands of people had a strong faith but still died?
  
  Ha, it's ironic...My post is full of speculation and unfounded facts, but your basis "People beat disease because they have a positive outlook and science has no idea why." Really? Who are these people? Have any specific examples? Are you reviewing their medical records? Does their positive outlook on having cancer have ANY correlation with early detection of the disease, having stage one cancer (relatively harmless if properly treated) vs. having stage four cancer (deathbed)? Do they happen to receive treatment at the best hospitals with well-recognized staff/doctors?
  Is any of that taken into account or should I just take your word that the fact that they had a strong belief in prayer and/or religion and/or God thus they survived and science is completely flabbergasted as to why?

  
  The existence of a thousand patients, or even a million patients who die, for every one who doesn't is irrelevant. The existence of the former does not preclude the existence of the latter.
  
  The question was "why do (people) pray?" and not "does praying heal the sick?"
  
  People pray because they think it helps. If they think it helps, it helps. Period. As a doctor, or even as someone claiming to be a doctor, you should already know that.
  
  Stick with answering the question at hand.
• sleeper

  

  Skyhook79;1057227 wrote:http://www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/has-science-disproved-god.htm

  Science can't disprove God. Fortunately for science, they don't have to as the burden is ultimately on the person making a claim. Sorry, that's the way logic and reason work.
• FatHobbit

  

  sleeper;1057238 wrote:I'm intolerant of ignorance. I don't act on my intolerance though

  If you believe a scientific theory and it is later disproven, were you not ignorant at the time you believed it? Everyone is ignorant about something. Can't we let people who aren't affecting us believe whatever they want?
• Skyhook79

  

  sleeper;1057242 wrote:Science can't disprove God. Fortunately for science, they don't have to as the burden is ultimately on the person making a claim. Sorry, that's the way logic and reason work.

  
  http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=outreach_articles&story_id=23
  
  
  
  God has not appeared on television with world leaders to make his will indisputably obvious to all. Yet this does not mean that he does not exist, any more than the fact that we do not see the banquet's chef means that the meal made itself. It is likely that God chooses to manifest himself through less obvious means for much the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables: so that those with eyes to see and ears to hear can receive the blessings of faith, but without forcing belief upon those who do not desire to perceive or understand. The fact that God's communications are not found without effort, as C.S. Lewis pointed out, suggests their importance and value.[16] If God were to step in to "prove" himself to skeptics, to impose immediate punishment for evil and reward for good, and to always save the innocent, man's choice between good and evil would be taken away. Keeping God's commands would be a matter of self-interest rather than of virtue. No faith would be developed and life would have little purpose.
  
  Either God exists, or He does not. If God exists, then one must seek to learn about Him and to follow His will. If one concludes that God does not exist, then one must also accept that the end of life represents the end of conscious existence. One cannot have it both ways by living life in a self-willed fashion without seeking to know and follow the will of the supreme being, and then hope for a glorious afterlife as death draws near, or accept the tenets of atheism in rejecting the responsibilities and sacrifices of the faithful while hedging one's bets by accepting religious sacraments or attending religious services on holidays "just in case" God exists.
  
• sleeper

  

  FatHobbit;1057246 wrote:If you believe a scientific theory and it is later disproven, were you not ignorant at the time you believed it? Everyone is ignorant about something. Can't we let people who aren't affecting us believe whatever they want?

  I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. The answer is no, I would not feel ignorant. Scientific theory is developed using the consensus opinion of all empirical observed data at the present time. Science is designed to be constantly be evolving. You cannot compare science to religion as religion never changes, is never vetted, and constantly fails under any critical review. Religion is ignorance, and ignorance is bliss.
  
  Sure, I've already said you can believe whatever you want. I just find it hilarious when backed into a corner where logic and reason cannot get you out, the believers are quick to point out their right or entitlement to believing whatever they want. They presume that I don't already know this, its just funny. You never see this with Atheism. I don't ever get to the point where I have to reassure anyone that its my right to believe what I want.
• Skyhook79

  

  sleeper;1057266 wrote:I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. The answer is no, I would not feel ignorant. Scientific theory is developed using the consensus opinion of all empirical observed data at the present time. Science is designed to be constantly be evolving. You cannot compare science to religion as religion never changes, is never vetted, and constantly fails under any critical review. Religion is ignorance, and ignorance is bliss.
  
  Sure, I've already said you can believe whatever you want. I just find it hilarious when backed into a corner where logic and reason cannot get you out, the believers are quick to point out their right or entitlement to believing whatever they want. They presume that I don't already know this, its just funny. You never see this with Atheism. I don't ever get to the point where I have to reassure anyone that its my right to believe what I want.

  So why does a atheist start a thread on prayer and then mock it?
• sleeper

  

  Skyhook79;1057252 wrote:http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=outreach_articles&story_id=23
  
  
  
  God has not appeared on television with world leaders to make his will indisputably obvious to all. Yet this does not mean that he does not exist, any more than the fact that we do not see the banquet's chef means that the meal made itself. It is likely that God chooses to manifest himself through less obvious means for much the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables: so that those with eyes to see and ears to hear can receive the blessings of faith, but without forcing belief upon those who do not desire to perceive or understand. The fact that God's communications are not found without effort, as C.S. Lewis pointed out, suggests their importance and value.[16] If God were to step in to "prove" himself to skeptics, to impose immediate punishment for evil and reward for good, and to always save the innocent, man's choice between good and evil would be taken away. Keeping God's commands would be a matter of self-interest rather than of virtue. No faith would be developed and life would have little purpose.
  
  Either God exists, or He does not. If God exists, then one must seek to learn about Him and to follow His will. If one concludes that God does not exist, then one must also accept that the end of life represents the end of conscious existence. One cannot have it both ways by living life in a self-willed fashion without seeking to know and follow the will of the supreme being, and then hope for a glorious afterlife as death draws near, or accept the tenets of atheism in rejecting the responsibilities and sacrifices of the faithful while hedging one's bets by accepting religious sacraments or attending religious services on holidays "just in case" God exists.
  

  I lol'd, and I didn't read anything after the initial analogy comparing god to a chef who created a banquet. I know who created the banquet, I can prove who created the banquet, there has never been any proof of any God, nor which of the many gods to believe in.
• sleeper

  

  Skyhook79;1057271 wrote:So why does a atheist start a thread on prayer and then mock it?

  Because I have a curious mind. Prayer has never been proven to work, yet people still do it. I was just curious why. If that's considering mocking to you, then just proves your insecurity regarding the issue. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance, your disconnect from logic and your beliefs.
• osudarby08

  

  sleeper;1057242 wrote:Science can't disprove God. Fortunately for science, they don't have to as the burden is ultimately on the person making a claim. Sorry, that's the way logic and reason work.

  This. It works both ways. I could find an article where someone claims science "disproves" religion, but I wont even waste a post on it. It comes down to what you want to believe.
  
  People are entitled to believe whatever the hell they want to, and that's perfectly fine with me.
• I Wear Pants

  ZWICK 4 PREZ;1056787 wrote:So you're not Catholic anymore? I'm just making the assumption since a wednesday service usually indicates a protestant denomination.

  There is mass every morning at most Catholic churches.
• ZWICK 4 PREZ

  

  I Wear Pants;1057285 wrote:There is mass every morning at most Catholic churches.

  True, but not evening. Of course I made the assumption it was evening.
• osudarby08

  

  Skyhook79;1057271 wrote:So why does a atheist start a thread on prayer and then mock it?

  
  Because we are all posting on a fucking internet forum, which means anyone has the freedom to talk about whatever they want.....until SOPA/PIPA passes
• Skyhook79

  

  sleeper;1057274 wrote:Because I have a curious mind. Prayer has never been proven to work, yet people still do it. I was just curious why. If that's considering mocking to you, then just proves your insecurity regarding the issue. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance, your disconnect from logic and your beliefs.

  "Religion is fraud. It gives the illusion of control of one's life, when in reality that isn't the case. It's made for the mentally weak and the people who can't help themselves. No mentally strong, secure, logical being believes in god, only the poor and the logically deficient."
  
  Thats not being curious and from someone who has already said the only way to fight religion is to mock it. You are not fooling anyone.
• sleeper

  

  osudarby08;1057283 wrote:This. It works both ways. I could find an article where someone claims science "disproves" religion, but I wont even waste a post on it. It comes down to what you want to believe.
  
  People are entitled to believe whatever the hell they want to, and that's perfectly fine with me.

  Only in the world of religion is something that cannot be disproven is automatically proof that it exists. This is not the way the world works. If this were the case, I could claim their are invisible aliens floating around in the ocean, and it must be true since it cannot be disproven!
• Skyhook79

  

  osudarby08;1057288 wrote:Because we are all posting on a fucking internet forum, which means anyone has the freedom to talk about whatever they want.....until SOPA/PIPA passes

  Which has nothing to do with what sleeper said.:rolleyes:
• Raw Dawgin' it

  

  sleeper;1057274 wrote:Because I have a curious mind. Prayer has never been proven to work, yet people still do it. I was just curious why. If that's considering mocking to you, then just proves your insecurity regarding the issue. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance, your disconnect from logic and your beliefs.

  
• sleeper

  

  Skyhook79;1057290 wrote:"Religion is fraud. It gives the illusion of control of one's life, when in reality that isn't the case. It's made for the mentally weak and the people who can't help themselves. No mentally strong, secure, logical being believes in god, only the poor and the logically deficient."
  
  Thats not being curious and from someone who has already said the only way to fight religion is to mock it. You are not fooling anyone.

  What I posted was true. Enjoy.