Healthcare Passes 219-212

• I Wear Pants

  From FactCheck.org again:

  Cadillac plans and a sweetheart deal for unions
  
  The controversy over those cushy Cadillac insurance plans just keeps on running. Here are the details: The bill places a tax on high-cost employer-sponsored plans – specifically there’s a 40 percent tax on the value of plans above $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families, starting in 2018. The tax falls on insurers, but would be passed along to policyholders one way or another. First, the thresholds were increased after union leaders lobbied for them, which led Republican leaders to charge that the new tax was a sweetheart deal for labor — and they were increased again for the final bill. But the tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, according to an analysis partly authored by a former Bush adviser. Under even lower thresholds than the bill has now, union workers would have made up only 17 percent of those affected by the tax in 2019, the analysis said.
  
  Of course, liberal groups and union leaders have made misleading claims about this Cadillac tax, saying it would really hit middle-class workers – lots of them. But economists in general back this idea, and the thinking behind it isn’t to raise money by slamming workers with a 40 percent tax. On the contrary, the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office believe the tax will boost paychecks. They say the existence of the tax will prompt employers and employees to choose less expensive health plans. In lieu of the higher cost benefits, employers will raise salaries. And that’s how the government really makes its revenue here: on payroll and income taxes on those higher paychecks.

  I didn't post the quote to refute or support jmog, just saw that he mentioned the Cadillac plan thing and I had remembered reading this earlier.
• QuakerOats

  "...unconscionable abuse of power"
  
  Monday, March 22, 2010
  
  
  A Campaign Begins Today [Mitt Romney]
  America has just witnessed an unconscionable abuse of power. President Obama has betrayed his oath to the nation — rather than bringing us together, ushering in a new kind of politics, and rising above raw partisanship, he has succumbed to the lowest denominator of incumbent power: justifying the means by extolling the ends. He promised better; we deserved better.
  
  He calls his accomplishment “historic” — in this he is correct, although not for the reason he intends. Rather, it is an historic usurpation of the legislative process — he unleashed the nuclear option, enlisted not a single Republican vote in either chamber, bribed reluctant members of his own party, paid-off his union backers, scapegoated insurers, and justified his act with patently fraudulent accounting. What Barack Obama has ushered into the American political landscape is not good for our country; in the words of an ancient maxim, “what starts twisted, ends twisted.”
  
  His health-care bill is unhealthy for America. It raises taxes, slashes the more private side of Medicare, installs price controls, and puts a new federal bureaucracy in charge of health care. It will create a new entitlement even as the ones we already have are bankrupt. For these reasons and more, the act should be repealed. That campaign begins today.
  http://corner.nationalreview.com/#########...zQyOTM1ZmIzNTI
• QuakerOats

  BCSbunk wrote:
  Too bad Insurance companies drove medical prices through the roof then denied coverage to the sick. That is the problem you cannot pay for yourself no matter how much you want to if you have a preexisting condition.
  
  This bill is a step in the right direction.

  Completely erroneous. Government intrusion into health care in the first place is what has distored the market and pricing.
  
  As for being a step in a certain direction ............. it is a step toward socialism and rationing, and a big one at that. We will be bankrupt and health care will stink .............. have at it.
  
  Change we can believe in .................
• jhay78

  

  Sage wrote:
  I look at health care as a civil right, so yea.
  

  "True rights, such as those in our Constitution, or those considered to be natural or human rights, exist simultaneously among people. That means exercise of a right by one person does not diminish those held by another."
  
  http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/10/IsHealthCareARight.htm
  
  I look at the govt stealing from you and paying my mortgage as a civil right also. Get a clue.
• jmog

  I Wear Pants wrote: From FactCheck.org again:

  Cadillac plans and a sweetheart deal for unions
  
  The controversy over those cushy Cadillac insurance plans just keeps on running. Here are the details: The bill places a tax on high-cost employer-sponsored plans – specifically there’s a 40 percent tax on the value of plans above $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families, starting in 2018. The tax falls on insurers, but would be passed along to policyholders one way or another. First, the thresholds were increased after union leaders lobbied for them, which led Republican leaders to charge that the new tax was a sweetheart deal for labor — and they were increased again for the final bill. But the tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, according to an analysis partly authored by a former Bush adviser. Under even lower thresholds than the bill has now, union workers would have made up only 17 percent of those affected by the tax in 2019, the analysis said.
  
  Of course, liberal groups and union leaders have made misleading claims about this Cadillac tax, saying it would really hit middle-class workers – lots of them. But economists in general back this idea, and the thinking behind it isn’t to raise money by slamming workers with a 40 percent tax. On the contrary, the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office believe the tax will boost paychecks. They say the existence of the tax will prompt employers and employees to choose less expensive health plans. In lieu of the higher cost benefits, employers will raise salaries. And that’s how the government really makes its revenue here: on payroll and income taxes on those higher paychecks.

  I didn't post the quote to refute or support jmog, just saw that he mentioned the Cadillac plan thing and I had remembered reading this earlier.

  That's the problem, you see, I like my health insurance. The government just made a law that taxes my health insurance to the point that will cause my employer to choose a lesser/cheaper health insurance plan.
  
  So much for "you can keep your health insurance" BS that Obama kept saying huh?
• I Wear Pants

  jmog wrote:

  I Wear Pants wrote: From FactCheck.org again:

  Cadillac plans and a sweetheart deal for unions
  
  The controversy over those cushy Cadillac insurance plans just keeps on running. Here are the details: The bill places a tax on high-cost employer-sponsored plans – specifically there’s a 40 percent tax on the value of plans above $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families, starting in 2018. The tax falls on insurers, but would be passed along to policyholders one way or another. First, the thresholds were increased after union leaders lobbied for them, which led Republican leaders to charge that the new tax was a sweetheart deal for labor — and they were increased again for the final bill. But the tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, according to an analysis partly authored by a former Bush adviser. Under even lower thresholds than the bill has now, union workers would have made up only 17 percent of those affected by the tax in 2019, the analysis said.
  
  Of course, liberal groups and union leaders have made misleading claims about this Cadillac tax, saying it would really hit middle-class workers – lots of them. But economists in general back this idea, and the thinking behind it isn’t to raise money by slamming workers with a 40 percent tax. On the contrary, the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office believe the tax will boost paychecks. They say the existence of the tax will prompt employers and employees to choose less expensive health plans. In lieu of the higher cost benefits, employers will raise salaries. And that’s how the government really makes its revenue here: on payroll and income taxes on those higher paychecks.

  I didn't post the quote to refute or support jmog, just saw that he mentioned the Cadillac plan thing and I had remembered reading this earlier.

  That's the problem, you see, I like my health insurance. The government just made a law that taxes my health insurance to the point that will cause my employer to choose a lesser/cheaper health insurance plan.
  
  So much for "you can keep your health insurance" BS that Obama kept saying huh?

  What the economists have said would happen with these is that you'll get a lower tier plan but will be paid more in salary. This way if you really want those higher tier benefits you could personally get them.
  
  The problem with that is that you'll be taxed on that extra income (obviously) so it might end up costing you a bit. I don't like that part of this.
• stlouiedipalma

  "The sky is falling". Chicken Little at his best.
  
  
  I hope all of the Republicans who are hanging their hats on this bill for the Midterm elections have sack enough to tell everyone that not one of them was willing to vote for health care reform, that each and every one of them was willing to turn their backs on Americans who have no health insurance and that, given the chance, they would be perfectly happy to return to the status quo, not to mention their support of complete deregulation of business and the financial markets and the "rich get richer" mentality which has permeated Republican policy for years. I doubt they will fess up to any of this, though, as the truth is something which gets in the way of their agenda.
• tk421

  

  stlouiedipalma wrote: "The sky is falling". Chicken Little at his best.
  
  
  I hope all of the Republicans who are hanging their hats on this bill for the Midterm elections have sack enough to tell everyone that not one of them was willing to vote for health care reform, that each and every one of them was willing to turn their backs on Americans who have no health insurance and that, given the chance, they would be perfectly happy to return to the status quo, not to mention their support of complete deregulation of business and the financial markets and the "rich get richer" mentality which has permeated Republican policy for years. I doubt they will fess up to any of this, though, as the truth is something which gets in the way of their agenda.

  *Sigh* Have you even read this thread? The bill is not going to help 30 million Americans get insurance. It is going to create another government welfare program that we can not afford. Are you okay with that?
  
  I love how anyone who doesn't agree with this bill is greedy and doesn't care about America. It's because we care about this country that we think this bill blows. It will do nothing but bring about the end of this country. Burying your head in the sand will not make it better. Typical democratic thinking.
• queencitybuckeye

  stlouiedipalma wrote: "The sky is falling". Chicken Little at his best.
  
  
  I hope all of the Republicans who are hanging their hats on this bill for the Midterm elections have sack enough to tell everyone that not one of them was willing to vote for health care reform, that each and every one of them was willing to turn their backs on Americans who have no health insurance and that, given the chance, they would be perfectly happy to return to the status quo, not to mention their support of complete deregulation of business and the financial markets and the "rich get richer" mentality which has permeated Republican policy for years. I doubt they will fess up to any of this, though, as the truth is something which gets in the way of their agenda.

  
  That we as a nation can't afford it has no place in your discussion?
• tk421

  

  That we as a nation can't afford it has no place in your discussion

  Of course not, democrats don't think beyond their legacy. They think this is some historic moment and don't give any thought to how we are supposed to pay for it, the obviously fudged CBO reports not withstanding.
• I Wear Pants

  tk421 wrote:

  stlouiedipalma wrote: "The sky is falling". Chicken Little at his best.
  
  
  I hope all of the Republicans who are hanging their hats on this bill for the Midterm elections have sack enough to tell everyone that not one of them was willing to vote for health care reform, that each and every one of them was willing to turn their backs on Americans who have no health insurance and that, given the chance, they would be perfectly happy to return to the status quo, not to mention their support of complete deregulation of business and the financial markets and the "rich get richer" mentality which has permeated Republican policy for years. I doubt they will fess up to any of this, though, as the truth is something which gets in the way of their agenda.

  *Sigh* Have you even read this thread? The bill is not going to help 30 million Americans get insurance. It is going to create another government welfare program that we can not afford. Are you okay with that?
  
  I love how anyone who doesn't agree with this bill is greedy and doesn't care about America. It's because we care about this country that we think this bill blows. It will do nothing but bring about the end of this country. Burying your head in the sand will not make it better. Typical democratic thinking.

  I love how anyone in support of health care reform has their head buried in the sand and anyone who doesn't is a greedy asshole.
  
  But just fyi, this bill isn't the end of the country/world. Calm down.
• tk421

  

  I Wear Pants wrote:

  tk421 wrote:

  stlouiedipalma wrote: "The sky is falling". Chicken Little at his best.
  
  
  I hope all of the Republicans who are hanging their hats on this bill for the Midterm elections have sack enough to tell everyone that not one of them was willing to vote for health care reform, that each and every one of them was willing to turn their backs on Americans who have no health insurance and that, given the chance, they would be perfectly happy to return to the status quo, not to mention their support of complete deregulation of business and the financial markets and the "rich get richer" mentality which has permeated Republican policy for years. I doubt they will fess up to any of this, though, as the truth is something which gets in the way of their agenda.

  *Sigh* Have you even read this thread? The bill is not going to help 30 million Americans get insurance. It is going to create another government welfare program that we can not afford. Are you okay with that?
  
  I love how anyone who doesn't agree with this bill is greedy and doesn't care about America. It's because we care about this country that we think this bill blows. It will do nothing but bring about the end of this country. Burying your head in the sand will not make it better. Typical democratic thinking.

  I love how anyone in support of health care reform has their head buried in the sand and anyone who doesn't is a greedy asshole.
  
  But just fyi, this bill isn't the end of the country/world. Calm down.

  It's a start.
• 2kool4skool

  

  Sage wrote: I don't see "everything" as a civil right, but health care is definitely one of them. Sorry, we're all human beings, and living in the richest country in the history of the world, I think we can afford this. Tens of millions of people are one ambulance away from bankruptcy.

  Even with this bill, the rich will still get the best care, the poor will still get the worst. Not a whole lot changes.
  

  Sage wrote:Also, love how you're all fiscal conservatives now. I must have missed that call during the Iraq War drum up and the subsequent tax-cuts.

  Two wrongs don't make a right.
  

  Sage wrote:We're the richest country in the world guys. I think we can afford it.

  Who is "we"? Our government isn't paying for it, tax payers will pay for it. And considering the state of the economy, I think a lot of people would disagree that they personally can afford it.
• Captain Cavalier

  

  The thing that disturbs me the most is that with the apparent majority of Americans AGAINST this bill, our elected officials, who are to REPRESENT the people in a Republic, voted for it. If the will of "We The People" is ignored in Washington, we are in serious trouble.
• 2kool4skool

  

  Captain Cavalier wrote: The thing that disturbs me the most is that with the apparent majority of Americans AGAINST this bill, our elected officials, who are to REPRESENT the people in a Republic, voted for it. If the will of "We The People" is ignored in Washington, we are in serious trouble.

  Technically that's not what they're supposed to do, but generally politicians don't enact major policies unless the majority of the country is behind it. It was an incredibly risky move by Obama and company.
  
  The Republicans can now easily run on an issue that it is clear the majority of Americans side with them on.
  
  Their platform for the mid terms will be "overturning the bill" and they will likely punish the Democrats badly in November because of it.
• QuakerOats

  Captain Cavalier wrote: The thing that disturbs me the most is that with the apparent majority of Americans AGAINST this bill, our elected officials, who are to REPRESENT the people in a Republic, voted for it. If the will of "We The People" is ignored in Washington, we are in serious trouble.

  = TYRANNY
  
  Thus you have the socialists and communists in celebration as Obama's plan to divide and conquer and turn this nation into a socialist dictatorship is perhaps ahead of schedule.
  
  Change we can believe in ................
• Writerbuckeye

  

  stlouiedipalma wrote: "The sky is falling". Chicken Little at his best.
  
  
  I hope all of the Republicans who are hanging their hats on this bill for the Midterm elections have sack enough to tell everyone that not one of them was willing to vote for health care reform, that each and every one of them was willing to turn their backs on Americans who have no health insurance and that, given the chance, they would be perfectly happy to return to the status quo, not to mention their support of complete deregulation of business and the financial markets and the "rich get richer" mentality which has permeated Republican policy for years. I doubt they will fess up to any of this, though, as the truth is something which gets in the way of their agenda.

  Why do you guys lie so easily?
  
  That's what you wrote, you know...a bunch of lies.
  
  The Republicans had ideas for health care reform that would have arguably brought down costs for everyone and opened up reasonable care for those who don't currently have it. Not wanting a bloated and inefficient bureaucracy to take over one sixth of our economy has ZIP to do with actual health care reform.
  
  The rest of your ridiculous rant is nothing more than the usual class warfare crap liberals grease their vaginas with when they get up in the morning, and doesn't have squat to do with the real world.
• gibby08

  

  Have any of you been listening to every analyst that isnt a complete fucking partisan hack?
  
  They have all said this bill be completely impossible to repeal. So if your party uses that as their main platform for the midterms,they will be just what they are calling us, LIARS!
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I Wear Pants wrote: What the economists have said would happen with these is that you'll get a lower tier plan but will be paid more in salary. This way if you really want those higher tier benefits you could personally get them.
  
  The problem with that is that you'll be taxed on that extra income (obviously) so it might end up costing you a bit. I don't like that part of this.

  Which just proves that the government cannot leave well enough alone.
  This EXACTLY backs up everything that conservatives have been saying.
• 2kool4skool

  

  gibby08 wrote: Have any of you been listening to every analyst that isnt a complete fucking partisan hack?
  
  They have all said this bill be completely impossible to repeal. So if your party uses that as their main platform for the midterms,they will be just what they are calling us, LIARS!

  link(s)?
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Can we have a show of hands of those who actually thinks that this bill is "REFORM" ???
  
  Also, can you please tell us what and why this is "reform"?
• gibby08

  

  http://cnsnews.com/news/print/59274
  
  http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo
• gibby08

  

  Majority Opposed Doesn't Tell Full Story
  
  A new CNN poll finds that Americans oppose the current health care reform plan passed by Congesss, 59 to 39%.
  
  However, parsing the numbers shows that many of those against the plan actually oppose it because "it is not liberal enough." In fact, 52% of Americans either support the current legislation or think it should be more liberal, while only 43% oppose the plan saying it is "too liberal."
  
  http://politicalwire.com/archives/2010/03/22/majority_opposed_doesnt_tell_full_story.html
• gibby08

  

  Texas Congressman Shouted "Baby Killer"
  
  Newsweek reports it was Rep. Randy Neugebauer (R-TX) who shouted "baby killer" at Rep. Bart Stupak on the House floor last night.
  
  "The moment came close to 11 p.m. while Stupak denounced a GOP motion to weaken the health-care-reform package after it already passed. Under mounting pressure for someone to come forward, Neugebauer made an apology a few minutes ago, and offered a clarification. He says he called the bill a baby killer, not Stupak himself, even though that's how it sounded. In the apology, Neugebauer said he was 'heart broken' by the passage of the bill, and deeply resentful that his comments were misconstrued."
  
  http://politicalwire.com/archives/2010/03/22/majority_opposed_doesnt_tell_full_story.html
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Gibby,
  
  Did you just call people "partisan hacks" and then turn around and quote two "left" blog sites?