Simplest reason poor are poor

• gut

  Manhattan Buckeye;1587726 wrote:...They are not only working on 1 generation of living in stagflation, but working on the 2nd. Japan is a mess.

  Yep, just like Boatshoes says, Japan should have printed more money, issued more debt, implemented ZIRP and quantitative easing, and spent their way to prosperity....
• believer

  

  gut;1587727 wrote:Yep, just like Boatshoes says, Japan should have printed more money, issued more debt, implemented ZIRP and quantitative easing, and spent their way to prosperity....

  That's because when phony assets outweigh real liabilities life is good. : thumbup:
• isadore

  Manhattan Buckeye;1587726 wrote:Miles Oak is a moron. The United States has a lot of problems, but upwards mobility isn't one of them. Japan in particular has a serious problem with this. They are not only working on 1 generation of living in stagflation, but working on the 2nd. Japan is a mess.

  of course it you are in the upper quintiles and part of the I got mine, screw you cadre you would not thing upward mobility is a problem. For those suffering in poverty it is and other nations have replaced us as the lands of opportunity.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  You obviously haven't seen where I grew up. I'll give you the the short version, trailers on both sides of the road, abused animals and unfortunately children in one instance where we had to intervene - and now a meth lab.
  
  I know you are a troll, but if anyone saw where my family farm is and see the poverty and crime around it you would understand why I have little regard for the silver spooned jerkasses in Congress and the White House.
• BoatShoes

  Manhattan Buckeye;1587726 wrote:Miles Oak is a moron. The United States has a lot of problems, but upwards mobility isn't one of them. Japan in particular has a serious problem with this. They are not only working on 1 generation of living in stagflation, but working on the 2nd. Japan is a mess.

  
  
  
  You are aware that stagflation has a specific meaning of high unemployment and high inflation yes? You are aware that Japanese have struggled with deflation and not inflation?
  
  
  
  
  Do you even have a passport????
  
  /MB'd
• BoatShoes

  gut;1587727 wrote:Yep, just like Boatshoes says, Japan should have printed more money, issued more debt, implemented ZIRP and quantitative easing, and spent their way to prosperity....

  Now you're starting to understand. Economic Growth is spending and sales. Somebody has to spend. Indeed increased prosperity = more spending throughout the economy and this is plainly evident from the GDP equation. C, I, G, or X have to go up.
• BoatShoes

  believer;1587728 wrote:That's because when phony assets outweigh real liabilities life is good. : thumbup:

  What is a phony asset? U.S. Treasuries are phony assets? Bank Reserves are phony assets? These financial assets are backed up by the Full Faith and Credit and production of the American people, the Greatest military force the world has ever seen, 5,000 nukes and a bounty of natural resources. Nothing phony about those financial assets.
  
  The only thing holding us back from bountiful prosperity is the space between our ears that makes us think that U.S. Treasury securities are anything like personal debt for individual citizens who do not have a Central Bank.
• BoatShoes

  WebFire;1587573 wrote: If you create jobs solely to employ people who otherwise cannot find work and would have to be on welfare, then what the hell else is it?

  And then this is why I said what you are saying is equivalent to saying that an E-1 is "working for welfare". There are a lot of E-1's who join the military because they lack viable employment opportunities in the private economy. For many E-1's, if they did not have the job offer of the military available, they would have to "go on welfare". Indeed many E-1's and their families still use our social insurance programs such as Food Stamps.
  
  But by the way, you're not just creating jobs "solely to employ people". The currency issuer, unless the economy is at full capacity, can always gain marginal utility by employing idle labor. So you're not "calling it what it is". You're implying that there is no value to be gained when there is always value to be gained for the currency issuer unless such employment would erode the purchasing power of the dollar.
  
  It is you who are making yourself look bad because you do not seem to realize that your reasoning that public servants employed as a last resort would be "working for welfare" also applies to our military public servants who would be unemployed and be forced to use social insurance if the opportunity to serve their country did not exist and demean their service by suggesting that their counterparts in a similar program would be "working for welfare".
  
  Individuals who provide valuable services to the People of the United States are not "working for welfare". They are providing value and are compensated for their services.
• BoatShoes

  WebFire;1587577 wrote:I'll tell you what I'm sick of. I'm sick of people like Boatshoes that bring the hammer down on people who truly want to see society improve, and help the poor out of the situations they are in. They claim to want to help the poor, but they only want to do it at everyone else's expense it seems.
  
  I want the poor to not be poor and be contributing members of society. If they choose to not do the latter, then I do not care if they are poor. Boatshoes, are you in agreement or not?

  I called you out because you would demean the poor contributing to society as "working for welfare". Your contempt for the poor is palpable. You think they are lazy scum but yet, the very few times when the economy functioning adequately the poor and unemployed will work just as hard as anyone else.
  
  The Federal Government using the Power of the Purse to hire idle labor is not "helping the poor at other's expense." They would be earning their paycheck just like any E-1 in the military currently does. There should be no charity or welfare from the Public Purse at all. Charity is wasteful and dehumanizing. They deserve the opportunity to sell their labor. Their lives have value and if the private economy will not buy it, the People of the United States should.
  
  You want the poor to be contributing members of society. We agree on that. Where we don't agree is that you would call their contributions "working for welfare" as if they were not genuine contributions. You also give lip service to the reality that millions and millions of people, not just the poor, are unable to contribute to our society under current conditions because they cannot sell their labor to the private economy. And, that is fine. Businesses are not charities. But, the Federal Government can always gain utility by putting idle human capital into productive endeavors.
  
  If and when we become serious about the fact that millions and millions of people are precluded from participating in our economy due to lack of private sector employment opportunities and don't just brush off the invisible unemployed saying "well they're just the lazy worthless people" then I would agree....if the Federal Government agrees to purchase your labor and allow you the opportunity to participate and you do not accept that offer, then fine, you have chosen to be poor.
  
  However, under current conditions, when the actual employment opportunities are miniscule in comparison to the number of working age people who could contribute and want to contribute, I reject the notion that these millions of our fellow Americans are simply choosing poverty when macroeconomic conditions above and beyond their control are making it a fact that millions of people would be unemployed even if they were all maximally skilled, talented and ambitious.
• isadore

  Manhattan Buckeye;1587743 wrote:You obviously haven't seen where I grew up. I'll give you the the short version, trailers on both sides of the road, abused animals and unfortunately children in one instance where we had to intervene - and now a meth lab.
  
  I know you are a troll, but if anyone saw where my family farm is and see the poverty and crime around it you would understand why I have little regard for the silver spooned jerkasses in Congress and the White House.

  key term not trailers and meth labs, but "family farm" a potential source of income and assets not available to most trailers park dwellers.
  but more importantly beyond that you are a member of the I got mine, screw you club whose membership seem so attracted to this political forum. While many other developing nations provide a real chance at upward social mobility our nation becomes increasingly stratified because of political and economic policies advocated by your membership.
• BoatShoes

  Al Bundy;1587668 wrote:That dream is still possible, and you have been provided with many examples of it throughout this thread. If it is so much better for poor people in those countries, why don't you see our poor going to those countries like you see the poor from other countries coming here?
  
  　
  　

  Possible but very unlikely for millions and millions of people who are ambitious but unfortunately cannot sell their labor to private businesses because there is no demand for it. We should not reason from outliers.
  
  And, Americans do not emigrate to countries with more generous welfare states and upward mobility because it is not easy to emigrate to these countries! The poor from other countries come here because they want to get U.S. dollars. Then they swap them with their native country's central banks for their own currency and the central banks plug them into the safest savings accounts n the history of the world, U.S. Treasury Securities.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  BoatShoes;1587749 wrote:
  
  
  You are aware that stagflation has a specific meaning of high unemployment and high inflation yes? You are aware that Japanese have struggled with deflation and not inflation?
  
  
  
  
  Do you even have a passport????
  
  /MB'd

  That is quite possibly the most-nonsensical post in the history of this board - do you know what stagflation means? Of course Japan has had stagflation you clown - think about real estate prices there.
  
  http://harvardmagazine.com/2010/07/an-aftermath-to-avoid
• WebFire

  BoatShoes;1587755 wrote:Your contempt for the poor is palpable.

  No, you just choose to make it seem that way.
• BoatShoes

  Manhattan Buckeye;1587796 wrote:That is quite possibly the most-nonsensical post in the history of this board - do you know what stagflation means? Of course Japan has had stagflation you clown - think about real estate prices there.
  
  http://harvardmagazine.com/2010/07/an-aftermath-to-avoid

  LOL. So much condescension and yet we can verify that you are completely and utterly wrong. stagflation has a specific meaning.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation
  

  Stagflation, a portmanteau of stagnation and inflation, is a term used in economics to describe a situation where the inflation rate is high, the economic growth rate slows down, and unemployment remains steadily high. It raises a dilemma for economic policy since actions designed to lower inflation may exacerbate unemployment, and vice versa.

  The term stagflation absolutely, 100% does not apply to the situation in Japan.
• BoatShoes

  WebFire;1587811 wrote:No, you just choose to make it seem that way.

  Let's not pretend that 24 million are wanting to work hard and make a better life for themselves. Many of them are only doing the minimum to get by, or to qualify for the unemployment benefits.

  Only work enough so they can be granted access to the government tit. A common view but totally incorrect. It is almost ironic. The welfare state has made it so the unemployed are invisible. Instead of rioting in the public square demanding the opportunity to work like in the old days before the welfare state they disappear from our consciousness and get accused being lazy moochers.
• WebFire

  BoatShoes;1587819 wrote:Only work enough so they can be granted access to the government tit. A common view but totally incorrect. It is almost ironic. The welfare state has made it so the unemployed are invisible. Instead of rioting in the public square demanding the opportunity to work like in the old days before the welfare state they disappear from our consciousness and get accused being lazy moochers.

  Bullshit. This girl was on Dr. Phil this morning.
  

  Pregnant teenager insists on keeping the baby and refuses to get a job bc, and I quote, 1. "The baby isn't even here yet." & 2. "can get on government assistance, everyone does it"

  Just because I don't paint rosey pictures and instead deal with at least a bit of reality, doesn't mean my contempt for the poor is palpable.
  
  (And no, I don't watch Dr. Phil. Someone posted about it on Facebook.)
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "The term stagflation absolutely, 100% does not apply to the situation in Japan."
  
  You've never been to Japan, obviously. It has one of the highest inflation rates in the world, and terrible employment for younger people. Japan is the poster child of it. You are getting into Isadore territory.
  
• BoatShoes

  Manhattan Buckeye;1587821 wrote:"The term stagflation absolutely, 100% does not apply to the situation in Japan."
  
  You've never been to Japan, obviously. It has one of the highest inflation rates in the world, and terrible employment for younger people. Japan is the poster child of it. You are getting into Isadore territory.
  

  This is only true if you do not know what inflation is. My mind is blown that you would even have the audacity to make that claim and act like you know what you're talking about. It is staggering.
  
  The inability of Japan to generate inflation has been an economic problem for decades.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation#In_Japan
  

  Deflation started in the early 1990s. The Bank of Japan and the government tried to eliminate it by reducing interest rates and 'quantitative easing', but did not create a sustained increase in broad money and deflation persisted. In July 2006, the zero-rate policy was ended....In November 2009 Japan has returned to deflation, according to the Wall Street Journal. Bloomberg L.P. reports that consumer prices fell in October 2009 by a near-record 2.2%

  Gut I know you disagree with me on everything but if you are reading will you please chime in and inform Manhattan Buckeye about how he is incorrect on this. You yourself have argued with me about my arguments for QE by pointing out that Japan can't even get out of deflation.
• BoatShoes

  WebFire;1587820 wrote:Bullshit. This girl was on Dr. Phil this morning.
  
  
  
  Just because I don't paint rosey pictures and instead deal with at least a bit of reality, doesn't mean my contempt for the poor is palpable.
  
  (And no, I don't watch Dr. Phil. Someone posted about it on Facebook.)

  It's called an outlier. This is not the norm. And, I have to even laugh at the language used by Dr. Phil that she "refuses" to get a job. Maybe she's refusing to look for a job but it's doubtful that a pregnant teenager is going to be hired when there are 24 million other people who want a job and there are only 4 million jobs available.
• sleeper

  

  BoatShoes;1587830 wrote:It's called an outlier. This is not the norm. And, I have to even laugh at the language used by Dr. Phil that she "refuses" to get a job. Maybe she's refusing to look for a job but it's doubtful that a pregnant teenager is going to be hired when there are 24 million other people who want a job and there are only 4 million jobs available.

  Who's choice to get pregnant?
• WebFire

  BoatShoes;1587830 wrote:It's called an outlier. This is not the norm. And, I have to even laugh at the language used by Dr. Phil that she "refuses" to get a job. Maybe she's refusing to look for a job but it's doubtful that a pregnant teenager is going to be hired when there are 24 million other people who want a job and there are only 4 million jobs available.

  I like how you say 24 million want to work is fact. SMH.
• WebFire

  BoatShoes;1587830 wrote:It's called an outlier. This is not the norm. And, I have to even laugh at the language used by Dr. Phil that she "refuses" to get a job. Maybe she's refusing to look for a job but it's doubtful that a pregnant teenager is going to be hired when there are 24 million other people who want a job and there are only 4 million jobs available.

  There are a lot of outliers then.
• sleeper

  

  WebFire;1587839 wrote:I like how you say 24 million want to work is fact. SMH.

  I think the Shaniqua's of the world with 12 children do WANT to work, but they want $15/hr to flip burgers so they can buy more luxuries while still sticking the taxpayers with the bill for their food, shelter, iphones, and healthcare.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  BoatShoes;1587829 wrote:This is only true if you do not know what inflation is. My mind is blown that you would even have the audacity to make that claim and act like you know what you're talking about. It is staggering.
  
  The inability of Japan to generate inflation has been an economic problem for decades.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation#In_Japan
  
  
  
  Gut I know you disagree with me on everything but if you are reading will you please chime in and inform Manhattan Buckeye about how he is incorrect on this. You yourself have argued with me about my arguments for QE by pointing out that Japan can't even get out of deflation.

  friendly suggestion, stop quoting wikipedia.
• WebFire

  sleeper;1587842 wrote:I think the Shaniqua's of the world with 12 children do WANT to work, but they want $15/hr to flip burgers so they can buy more luxuries while still sticking the taxpayers with the bill for their food, shelter, iphones, and healthcare.

  Oh, I guess they DO want to work afterall.