Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• ernest_t_bass

  

  FatHobbit;695759 wrote:When did those go into affect? (effect?)

  
  I think that it already is in effect. I started my Masters when it was required. I'm still in it. I could drop out if I wanted to, and I would not be penalized.
• wkfan

  Writerbuckeye;695752 wrote:One of the things that really needs to be done away with is the escalator clauses for teachers that go on to work on their Phds. I don't believe a PHd is necessary to teach in high school, so why have it in there? It's a waste of money. Hell, I'm not sure I think a master's degree is really needed to be a better teacher. All I think those requirements do is artificially drive up the cost of education.
  
  We'd do ourselves a huge favor by finding the best people to teach, regardless of arbitrary education requirements. If someone who has been a journalist for 20 years decides he wants to teach, I'd think some consideration would have to be given, even with the lack of specific education courses in their background. The same with a successful businessman who might want to give back to his community by teaching basic business classes (or advanced, for that matter).
  
  I realize this is probably going to get some of the teachers in an uproar over not having an "education" background (course work in methods of teaching), but I took all those classes and found them mostly worthless when I actually taught a class or seminar.

  No uproar here...I agree with you on the PhD thing. My wife is a thesis away from her PhD, but will not finish the thesis.
  
  However, to say it is a waste of money is overstating it a bit. In her district, there is no 'PhD' column on the pay scale. All someone gets is a $1,000 one time payment for reaching that level while paying for it herself....which would be much, much more than the bonus.
  
  BTW...I know of no school districts in this state that have a 'PhD' column on their master agreement.
• Gblock

  we dont have phd pay...
• O-Trap

  

  LJ;695758 wrote:I can get on porn sites, but can't get other random things to unload

  
  Sounds like a personal problem.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  From what I understand the highest comp level is Masters Plus - but the underlying point is IMO accurate. Few, if any, teachers become more effective by taking additional classes and it is just an additional comp strategy for a worthless degree, and aside from the additional comp it is a waste of time for the teachers. The big beneficiary is the diploma factory.
• Bigdogg

  LJ;694006 wrote:Why don't you just follow the rules that are set or go somewhere else? They aren't going to change, my modding style has been the same since I became a mod on this site and it isn't going to change either/

  
  I have said all that I am going to say about this topic. Collective bargaining needs to be fixed, there is no doubt. The majority of people in this country do not support eliminating it completely and I feel it helps keep balance in the workplace. The binding arbitration system is tilted too far in labor's favor and is not fair. I think the Republican strategy to attack unions will cost them in the next election. History will prove who is correct, since the majority of outspoken people on this forum seem to favor eliminating it.
  
  As far as your style as moderator on here, I don't expect anything as I know you are incapable of admitting any faults you may have. It seem to be a characteristic that many young people have like you. I don't really have a problem with you at all. I don't agree with many of the things most of the people on this board say but I can be civil in the discussion as long as they are civil with me. Most of the people on here don't take it serious and really are on here to get a rise out of you.
• wkfan

  Manhattan Buckeye;695779 wrote:From what I understand the highest comp level is Masters Plus - but the underlying point is IMO accurate. Few, if any, teachers become more effective by taking additional classes and it is just an additional comp strategy for a worthless degree, and aside from the additional comp it is a waste of time for the teachers. The big beneficiary is the diploma factory.

  
  Interesting that you think that this is a strategy to get more pay when, in many instances, the district or the state is requiring the teacher to take the class
• Manhattan Buckeye

  A Masters Plus? How many districts require that? None that I know of.
• wkfan

  Manhattan Buckeye;695790 wrote:A Masters Plus? How many districts require that? None that I know of.

  None that I know of...where did you get that idea?
• Gblock

  Manhattan Buckeye;695790 wrote:A Masters Plus? How many districts require that? None that I know of.

  
  you are required to take 9hours every four years by the state to renew your license.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Gblock;695768 wrote:we dont have phd pay...

  
  I was talking about pay for Masters plus...and wrongly assumed it also meant you got a raise if you achieved a PhD. It's been too many years since I covered school boards as a reporter and looked at a salary schedule.
• Gblock

  i think it makes sense for teachers to continue to update their knowledge especially on ways to use technology and continuing to improve on new ways to reach ever more challenging groups of students. if you have been teaching 20 years certainly you would need some training to stay relevant. i would say that is standard for most fields. its up to you if you think they should be paid more for it, but you make yourself sound a little silly with your post about few if any get anything from worthless degrees. that was an unitelligent post from a normally intelligent poster.
• LJ

  

  Bigdogg;695783 wrote:
  As far as your style as moderator on here, I don't expect anything as I know you are incapable of admitting any faults you may have. It seem to be a characteristic that many young people have like you. I don't really have a problem with you at all. I don't agree with many of the things most of the people on this board say but I can be civil in the discussion as long as they are civil with me. Most of the people on here don't take it serious and really are on here to get a rise out of you.

  
  Too bad you start the name calling. You don't like the rules and get pissy when you get infracted for breaking them. Pretty clear cut. You've had the same issue since you joined.
  
  To think that I get any kind of upset over a forum is pretty hilarious.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "i think it makes sense for teachers to continue to update their knowledge especially on ways to use technology and continuing to improve on new ways to reach ever more challenging groups of students."
  
  Do Masters programs teach this?
  
  I might be unintelligent, but I don't get a degree from the CLE (12 hours a year) I'm required to take to maintain my license. And I don't get paid more for taking them.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  LOL, Bigdogg... There's no civility on here! Come on!
• Gblock

  Manhattan Buckeye;695808 wrote:"i think it makes sense for teachers to continue to update their knowledge especially on ways to use technology and continuing to improve on new ways to reach ever more challenging groups of students."
  
  Do Masters programs teach this?
  
  I might be unintelligent, but I don't get a degree from the CLE (12 hours a year) I'm required to take to maintain my license. And I don't get paid more for taking them.

  many teachers dont get a degree from them...some people like myself decide that if i m going to take classes then i might as well get a masters degree. i used my time to get a principal license. i know others who have got reading certifications, or english as a second language cert. i know others who have used the classes to learn how to use ipod's in the class or to learn how to deal with difficult children. its personal chioce really. but my point was your post, as others on this thread did little to add to the discussion and was basically a chance to bash and belittle teachers. especially the part where you say "Few, if any"....do you honestly believe that? do you not know any good teachers?...most people i know would say they know more good teachers than bad.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "especially the part where you say "Few, if any"....do you honestly believe that? do you not know any good teachers?.."
  
  How about finishing the ..... We aren't the New York Times. Let's try this:
  
  "Few, if any, teachers become more effective by taking additional classes "
  
  Understood? If a teacher is already effective, taking BS classes for a piece of paper isn't making them more effective.
• Gblock

  Manhattan Buckeye;695823 wrote:"especially the part where you say "Few, if any"....do you honestly believe that? do you not know any good teachers?.."
  
  How about finishing the ..... We aren't the New York Times. Let's try this:
  
  "Few, if any, teachers become more effective by taking additional classes "
  
  Understood? If a teacher is already effective, taking BS classes for a piece of paper isn't making them more effective.

  i think that everyone in every profession, but especially in education should be trying to get better everyday. i see myself as a lifelong learner. there isnt a person who knows everything. A former teacher once told me that "no one ever stays the same, you either get better or you get worse" even the best college and professional coaches often visit other schools or talk with other coaches to keep adjusting and getting better. no one should ever feel they know it all...oh wait this is OC nevermind.
• Prescott

  Below is a link to an article which summarizes many of the points made in this debate.
  
  .....Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.......
  
  ....n 1943, a New York Supreme Court judge held:
  
  To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. .....
  
  ....The first study ... provides evidence that teachers, acting through their unions, are quite successful at getting their favored candidates elected to local school boards. When a candidate is supported by the unions, her probability of winning increases dramatically, so much so that the impact of union support appears to be roughly the same as the impact of incumbency. In terms of total impact, union influence may be even greater than this suggests, because union victories literally produce incumbents—and the power of incumbency then works for union candidates to boost their probability of victory still further in future elections........
  
  ....In effect, public sector unionism thus means that representatives of the union will often be on both sides of the collective bargaining table....
  
  
  http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2011/02/the-case-against-public-sector-unionism.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+professorbainbridge%2FsheN+%28ProfessorBainbridge.com+%C2%AE%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
• wkfan

  Writerbuckeye;695798 wrote:I was talking about pay for Masters plus...and wrongly assumed it also meant you got a raise if you achieved a PhD. It's been too many years since I covered school boards as a reporter and looked at a salary schedule.

  ...and this is one of the problems with teachers, firefighters, police, etc being lambasted and mis-characterized in the press, on television, on the interwebz, etc.
  
  My Father was a newpaper reporter and editor for over 50 years....he taught me to check my facts before I wrote anything...no matter what it was... a paper for a class, an letter to the editor, an news article or a note to a friend.
  
  You cannot assume.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  wkfan;695874 wrote:...and this is one of the problems with teachers, firefighters, police, etc being lambasted and mis-characterized in the press, on television, on the interwebz, etc.
  
  My Father was a newpaper reporter and editor for over 50 years....he taught me to check my facts before I wrote anything...no matter what it was... a paper for a class, an letter to the editor, an news article or a note to a friend.
  
  You cannot assume.

  
  For the most part, I'd say the mainstream press coverage about all this (especially Wisconsin) has been very favorable to the teachers. If reporters were really doing their jobs and publishing/broadcasting the salaries and benefits being debated, teachers would not get sympathy from the public. I've not seen one story or broadcast detailing any of the actual costs so far and it's most likely because it takes a lot of work to do all that math, and today's reporters are pretty lazy. All of that data has been found by reading web sites and via connections to data bases.
  
  As for my post...if you want to feel good about my screw up, have at it. But writing an opinion, off the cuff, on a discussion forum doesn't even enter the same hemisphere as an actual news report in terms of writer responsibility/culpability. It's basically an on-going conversation in writing and not meant to be anything else.
• wkfan

  Writerbuckeye;695983 wrote:For the most part, I'd say the mainstream press coverage about all this (especially Wisconsin) has been very favorable to the teachers. If reporters were really doing their jobs and publishing/broadcasting the salaries and benefits being debated, teachers would not get sympathy from the public. I've not seen one story or broadcast detailing any of the actual costs so far and it's most likely because it takes a lot of work to do all that math, and today's reporters are pretty lazy. All of that data has been found by reading web sites and via connections to data bases.
  
  As for my post...if you want to feel good about my screw up, have at it. But writing an opinion, off the cuff, on a discussion forum doesn't even enter the same hemisphere as an actual news report in terms of writer responsibility/culpability. It's basically an on-going conversation in writing and not meant to be anything else.

  Not trying to use your 'screw up' to feel anything. Rather, I'm pointing out that there is alot of misinformation out there being perpetuated as fact...not opinion. It would take a simple google search to find some districts master salary agrement, if they ar on the web. I found a link to my districts current master agreement (all 167 pages of it) in about 40 seconds.
  
  This misrepresentation fuels people to bitch unjustly.....and this is a pretty passionate issue on both sides.....that the information people are stating as fact is indeed....fact.
• jmog

  Prescott;695866 wrote:Below is a link to an article which summarizes many of the points made in this debate.
  
  .....Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.......
  
  ....n 1943, a New York Supreme Court judge held:
  
  To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. .....
  
  ....The first study ... provides evidence that teachers, acting through their unions, are quite successful at getting their favored candidates elected to local school boards. When a candidate is supported by the unions, her probability of winning increases dramatically, so much so that the impact of union support appears to be roughly the same as the impact of incumbency. In terms of total impact, union influence may be even greater than this suggests, because union victories literally produce incumbents—and the power of incumbency then works for union candidates to boost their probability of victory still further in future elections........
  
  ....In effect, public sector unionism thus means that representatives of the union will often be on both sides of the collective bargaining table....
  
  
  http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2011/02/the-case-against-public-sector-unionism.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+professorbainbridge%2FsheN+%28ProfessorBainbridge.com+%C2%AE%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

  
  Exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it MUCH better .
• Bigdogg

  LJ;695807 wrote:Too bad you start the name calling. You don't like the rules and get pissy when you get infracted for breaking them. Pretty clear cut. You've had the same issue since you joined.
  
  To think that I get any kind of upset over a forum is pretty hilarious.

  
  Funny that I have never had a problem on any other forum or other moderator. Like I told you before, ban me if you want there are plenty of other places to go with moderators that don't have a chip on there shoulder and a ego to match it.
  
  Hey, I tried to get back on topic at least.
• LJ

  

  Bigdogg;696010 wrote:Funny that I have never had a problem on any other forum or other moderator. Like I told you before, ban me if you want there are plenty of other places to go with moderators that don't have a chip on there shoulder and a ego to match it.
  
  Hey, I tried to get back on topic at least.

  
  Too bad the other mod of this forum has given you an infraction for the SAME DAMN THING that I have given you infractions for. He have an ego and chip on his shoulder too? Nah, you just have a problem with the rules.