Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• LJ

  

  Gblock;689980 wrote:seems low to me but i have no data

  
  This is just a basic website, I don't feel like trying to remember my fiancee's password to get onto the AVMA website.
  
  http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Veterinarian/Salary
• Gblock

  LJ;689984 wrote:This is just a basic website, I don't feel like trying to remember my fiancee's password to get onto the AVMA website.
  
  http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Veterinarian/Salary

  
  you are correct it shows average at around 80000....ohio teacher average 53000 from the same site
• LJ

  

  Gblock;689985 wrote:you are correct it shows average at around 80000....ohio teacher average 53000 from the same site

  
  So ROI is roughly higher for teachers
• Gblock

  it is...will it continue to be?? we'll see
• fan_from_texas

  Gblock;689955 wrote:does seem dumb...who the eff would sign up to go 200000 in debt to get a job that pays less than 50000. seems like you would be better off for that kinda money to become a medical doctor or dentist/surgeon or lawyer.

  
  I can't speak for doctors, but lawyer stats are pretty similar to vets--$150-200k in debt for typical starting salaries in the $40-50k range.
  
  For comparison's sake, that's comparable to starting comp for teachers in the school districts here, who have 3 fewer years of school and significantly less debt.
  
  It seems to me that teachers say, "We work so hard; we should get more money, like other professionals." And then other professionals come back and say, "Well, actually, teachers, your comp is competitive with other professionals." This issue, to me, isn't that teachers are underpaid; it's that many are out of touch with how everyone else is compensated.
• O-Trap

  

  LJ;689987 wrote:So ROI is roughly higher for teachers

  
  I'm actually going to come to Gblock's defense here.
  
  You can't spend ROI. You can spend net. Teacher ROI is higher, but higher ROI doesn't at all mean higher net.
• queencitybuckeye

  wkfan;689961 wrote:yea...but it's a doctor of animals......not like its a doctor of something important, like people.

  
  That's all relative. My vet is more important to me than the doctors of the 99.99999999999% of the people I don't know.
• LJ

  

  O-Trap;689992 wrote:I'm actually going to come to Gblock's defense here.
  
  You can't spend ROI. You can spend net. Teacher ROI is higher, but higher ROI doesn't at all mean higher net.

  
  Uh, ROI does = spending net. My fiancee's student loan payment is $855 per month. What is the average teachers? Plus she has to pay taxes on any forgiven debt after paying for 25 years (federal loans)
• Gblock

  fan_from_texas;689991 wrote:I can't speak for doctors, but lawyer stats are pretty similar to vets--$150-200k in debt for typical starting salaries in the $40-50k range.
  
  For comparison's sake, that's comparable to starting comp for teachers in the school districts here, who have 3 fewer years of school and significantly less debt.
  
  It seems to me that teachers say, "We work so hard; we should get more money, like other professionals." And then other professionals come back and say, "Well, actually, teachers, your comp is competitive with other professionals." This issue, to me, isn't that teachers are underpaid; it's that many are out of touch with how everyone else is compensated.

  
  my younger brother/roomate started in the mid 90's and now makes about 107000 plus what ever yearly bonus they give him...usually about 4-6000. he got lucky on school loans cause he got a full ride to play football at toledo for undergrad. I have two other good friends who do malpractice/personal injury law who both make over 200000. I guess it depends on the type of law you do.
  
  http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary
• Gblock

  LJ;689998 wrote:Uh, ROI does = spending net. My fiancee's student loan payment is $855 per month. What is the average teachers? Plus she has to pay taxes on any forgiven debt after paying for 25 years (federal loans)

  
  i pay on two loans and pay $600 per month. 25,000 loan for undergrad and 20,000 for masters.
• LJ

  

  Gblock;690001 wrote:i pay on two loans and pay $600 per month. 25,000 loan for undergrad and 20,000 for masters.

  
  what is your interest rate and what is your repayment plan. If she chose standard 10 year it would be well over $2,000 per month
• Gblock

  2.4 for 1 and 6.8 for the latter
• LJ

  

  standard 10 year plan
  
  Monthly Loan Payment: $2,128.99
• fan_from_texas

  Gblock;690000 wrote:my younger brother/roomate started in the mid 90's and now makes about 107000 plus what ever yearly bonus they give him...usually about 4-6000. he got lucky on school loans cause he got a full ride to play football at toledo for undergrad. I have two other good friends who do malpractice/personal injury law who both make over 200000. I guess it depends on the type of law you do.
  
  http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary

  
  Lawyer salaries have a bimodal distribution. Basically, a small percentage of lawyers start with six-figure salaries, while virtually everyone else starts at $40-50k. Both sets have six figure loans. If you're interested in the data, I can direct you to a number of sites that talk about the problem, including the big article in the NYTimes a few weeks ago (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1).
• Gblock

  fan_from_texas;690015 wrote:Lawyer salaries have a bimodal distribution. Basically, a small percentage of lawyers start with six-figure salaries, while virtually everyone else starts at $40-50k. Both sets have six figure loans. If you're interested in the data, I can direct you to a number of sites that talk about the problem, including the big article in the NYTimes a few weeks ago (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1).

  i believe you ...that sux for those people
• O-Trap

  

  LJ;689998 wrote:Uh, ROI does = spending net. My fiancee's student loan payment is $855 per month. What is the average teachers? Plus she has to pay taxes on any forgiven debt after paying for 25 years (federal loans)

  If I make $400 a month, but only pay $200 in student loans a month, my ROI is 2.00. My net income (if using these two metrics, as I thought this was the case) is $200 a month.
  
  If I make $4000 a month, and I pay $3000 in student loans a month, my ROI is only 1.33 (less than the former case). My net income, however, is $1000 a month (more than the former).
• wkfan

  fan_from_texas;689991 wrote:I can't speak for doctors, but lawyer stats are pretty similar to vets--$150-200k in debt for typical starting salaries in the $40-50k range.
  
  For comparison's sake, that's comparable to starting comp for teachers in the school districts here, who have 3 fewer years of school and significantly less debt.
  
  It seems to me that teachers say, "We work so hard; we should get more money, like other professionals." And then other professionals come back and say, "Well, actually, teachers, your comp is competitive with other professionals." This issue, to me, isn't that teachers are underpaid; it's that many are out of touch with how everyone else is compensated.

  1. Manhattan quoted a starting salary for a 1st year associate of $105K...down from the $120's. Let's just say that a lawyer has the opportunity to have a very high starting salary...while a teacher has no shot at one like that.
  2. I didn't know that amount of debt entered into the starting salary equation.
• fan_from_texas

  Gblock;690020 wrote:i believe you ...that sux for those people

  
  Yes; a number have committed suicide or fled the country because there is no realistic prospect of repaying their loans. Everyone seems to know a lawyer or know of a lawyer who makes a lot of money, so when the economy is bad, people flock to law school as a way of making a lot of money. The reality is that the future is very bleak for law students, and most will end up with mountains of debt and no way to repay that.
  
  I'd rather be a 23-year-old teacher just starting out making $45k with few loans than a 26-year-old lawyer just starting out making $45k with six figures of loans. Granted, no teacher will ever make $500k, while a small fraction (less than 1%) of lawyers will hit that mark. The ceiling is much higher for lawyers, and the top of the profession does very well. But for most people, teaching is a better career move than law school.
• LJ

  

  O-Trap;690021 wrote:If I make $400 a month, but only pay $200 in student loans a month, my ROI is 2.00. My net income (if using these two metrics, as I thought this was the case) is $200 a month.
  
  If I make $4000 a month, and I pay $3000 in student loans a month, my ROI is only 1.33 (less than the former case). My net income, however, is $1000 a month (more than the former).

  
  You are using massive extremes
  
  undergrad only teacher making 36k will net $2400 per month.
  new grad vet will net around $3200
  
  The average debt for a new grad from undergrad is 19k. That makes a monthly payment of around $200 over 10 years. So $2200 per month. After 10 years, they get that $200 back.
  
  A vet will make a payment of around $800 per month over 25 years, giving them $2400 take home, but has to pay for it over 25 years. While the vet does have $200 more, they are getting a much higher return and will be out of debt much faster. Plus, that new grad teacher has a 4 year head start on the vet.
• fan_from_texas

  wkfan;690023 wrote:1. Manhattan quopted a starting salary for a 1st year associate of $105K...down from the $120's.

  
  
  Manhattan worked for a big Richmond-based firm. Here's the way lawyer salaries break down, which can obtain pretty easily online:
  If you work at a top NY firm or major legal market (Chicago, LA, DC), $160k.
  If you work at a top firm in a major secondary legal market (e.g., Atlanta, Philly), $130k-ish.
  If you work at a top firm in a minor secondary legal market (e.g., Indianapolis, Pittsburgh), $110k-ish.
  
  You only land one of those positions if you are (1) top 1/2 of your class at a top 14 school (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, NYU, Columbia, Penn, Berkeley, Northwestern, Michigan, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, Virginia), (2) top 1/4 of your class at a top 25 school, or (3) top 5% of your class at a top 50 school.
  
  If you don't fall into one of those categories, you end up starting at $40-50k if you can land a job. Focusing on the jobs that 10-20% of law students get--and ignoring the other 80%--isn't exactly a fair comparison.
  
  

  2. I didn't know that amount of debt entered into the starting salary equation.

  It doesn't. It factors into how well someone is compensated--ROI. If someone was in school until they were 50 and took out a million dollars in student loans and then made $50k, they're not in as good of shape as someone who got a job straight out of undergrad and made $50k. You can't become a lawyer without 3 years of law school (opportunity costs and tuition costs). That's a factor to consider if you're wanting to compare how well-compensated someone is.
• derek bomar

  

  One of my best friends has been out of law school for 2 years and is right now clerking...he's I think about ready to give up and just try and do something else. Luckily, his gf is one of the lucky law students who has a six-figure income to start, but they both have over 100k in debt, so it's not like they're rolling in cash.
  
  Also, my sisters dbag ex bf is in law school now and I couldn't be happier knowing he's going to have a shit load of debt and no way to pay it back (my money is on him not getting his dream Sports Agent Job)
• O-Trap

  

  LJ;690028 wrote:You are using massive extremes
  
  undergrad only teacher making 36k will net $2400 per month.
  new grad vet will net around $3200
  
  The average debt for a new grad from undergrad is 19k. That makes a monthly payment of around $200 over 10 years. So $2200 per month. After 10 years, they get that $200 back.
  
  A vet will make a payment of around $800 per month over 25 years, giving them $2400 take home, but has to pay for it over 25 years. While the vet does have $200 more, they are getting a much higher return and will be out of debt much faster. Plus, that new grad teacher has a 4 year head start on the vet.

  
  Gotcha. I didn't have the numbers in front of me, and I did use massive extremes to extend the gap and make the distinction more apparent. It was only an issue of potential. You cleared it up, though, so we're good.
• Gblock

  derek bomar;690037 wrote:One of my best friends has been out of law school for 2 years and is right now clerking...he's I think about ready to give up and just try and do something else. Luckily, his gf is one of the lucky law students who has a six-figure income to start, but they both have over 100k in debt, so it's not like they're rolling in cash.
  
  Also, my sisters dbag ex bf is in law school now and I couldn't be happier knowing he's going to have a shit load of debt and no way to pay it back (my money is on him not getting his dream Sports Agent Job)

  
  my brother has his NFL liscence and has yet to get a client...it is very difficult because you have to have a lot of money to get the player. agents now right off the bat when you sign give you a car and a apt and pay for you to go out west to one of those special training fascilities. and a lot straight up bribe the player. it cost about 1800 dollars i think to get certified and if you dont get a player in 3 years you lose it. my brother in law is also an agent. luckily they were able to co-sign off on a player who went to the arena league or they would have lost their liscences. but so far they havent made a dime of that. i think their lawfirms paid for the certification tho. i dont think hes going to continue doing it.
• iclfan2

  

  Gblock;690001 wrote:i pay on two loans and pay $600 per month. 25,000 loan for undergrad and 20,000 for masters.

  
  You paid $20k for a masters degree in education? That seems way steep for that degree, with a low ROI.
• Gblock

  iclfan2;690095 wrote:You paid $20k for a masters degree in education? That seems way steep for that degree, with a low ROI.

  
  well it was a litte more than a masters...it is a principal license. 15 classes at 1200 a class plus books\
  
  it broke down as 10 classes gets u the masters
  5 more classes if you want the principal license
  
  i am taking the praxis this summer which is over 300 dollars to take.