Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• wkfan

  While I happen to agree with you that the time for Unions has long passed....may of the benefits that you and I enjoy are as a result of them. Those laws regarding minimum wage, working conditions, etc are a direct result of what those workers fought for.
  
  The simple reason that the time for unions have passed....is because they were here!
• lhslep134

  

  LJ;688242 wrote:Doctors have a hippocratic oath they have to obide by. It is very realistic to expect the same service.

  
  No no that's not what I mean. I'm not comparing the services of a doctor performing for a free clinic versus that same doctor performing for money. I'm talking about free service vs paid service.
  
  I'm talking about that the very best doctors in the world are not working free clinics just like the best lawyers in the world aren't working pro bono. I'm saying that you can't expect high level service for free, but you can expect the same service level from the same professional working for money or free.
• lhslep134

  

  O-Trap;688256 wrote:"Won't be able to" is taking skill alone into account. Effort is what's being evaluated. If someone is doing pro bono work, they ought to give as much EFFORT as if they were being paid. That was the point he was trying to make, I think.

  
  Ah yes the effort point I agree upon. The same effort should be made.
  
  My point is about the skill differential.
• Fab4Runner

  

  wkfan;688260 wrote:While I happen to agree with you that the time for Unions has long passed....may of the benefits that you and I enjoy are as a result of them. Those laws regarding minimum wage, working conditions, etc are a direct result of what those workers fought for.
  
  The simple reason that the time for unions have passed....is because they were here!

  Okay. But my point still remians...I haven't heard one valid reason as to why we NEED unions.
• O-Trap

  

  wkfan;688258 wrote:Pleast tell me how a point of history is 'not relevant anymore'.
  
  Is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 irrelevant? How about the Emancipation Proclimation? Are they irrelevant?

  
  Hardly the same. Keeping unions around because of what they put in place would be like keeping the Continental Congress around because they scripted the U. S. Declaration of Independence.
  
  Their contribution is valuable, and we benefit from it, but their existence is no longer necessary.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Repost:
  
  Just because you cut high paid teachers doesn't mean you save the tax payers money. The money will just get redistributed elsewhere. This bill will not save any local tax base money, b/c that is voted upon by levies. The money a school receives from local tax will stay the same. The money that each school receives from a state will decrease.
• fan_from_texas

  lhslep134;688261 wrote:I'm talking about that the very best doctors in the world are not working free clinics just like the best lawyers in the world aren't working pro bono. I'm saying that you can't expect high level service for free, but you can expect the same service level from the same professional working for money or free.

  
  I don't know who the best lawyers in the world are, but I do know and work with the best lawyers in the state. They are working pro bono, as required/suggested/mandated by the state bar. If they screw up, they get hit with malpractice claims just as if it were a paying client, so presumably they're doing a good job.
• O-Trap

  

  lhslep134;688263 wrote:Ah yes the effort point I agree upon. The same effort should be made.
  
  My point is about the skill differential.

  
  Oh, to be sure. I think his point was that if I have a job to do, for which I make a salary of $28K, and my salary is dropped to $23K, I shouldn't also intentionally drop my work ethic or performance. That's a good way to get yourself canned.
• wkfan

  O-Trap;688275 wrote:Hardly the same. Keeping unions around because of what they put in place would be like keeping the Continental Congress around because they scripted the U. S. Declaration of Independence.
  
  Their contribution is valuable, and we benefit from it, but their existence is no longer necessary.

  
  Please show me where I advocated keeping unions around?
• O-Trap

  

  wkfan;688283 wrote:please show me where I advocated keeping unions around?

  
  You didn't. My mistake. I apologize.
• Con_Alma

  wkfan;688283 wrote:Please show me where I advocated keeping unions around?

  
  Why? No one stated that you did.
• O-Trap

  

  Con_Alma;688285 wrote:Why? No one stated that you did.

  
  I did, errantly I might add.
• Con_Alma

  I'm sorry, I didn't read that anywhere.
• O-Trap

  

  Con_Alma;688288 wrote:I'm sorry, I didn't read that anywhere.

  In this post, where I'm quoting wkfan.
  

  O-Trap;688275 wrote:Hardly the same. Keeping unions around because of what they put in place would be like keeping the Continental Congress around because they scripted the U. S. Declaration of Independence.
  
  Their contribution is valuable, and we benefit from it, but their existence is no longer necessary.

• Con_Alma

  Yeah, still don't see it. Must be me. Again, sorry.
• jmog

  wkfan;688218 wrote:Well...I'm going to weigh in on this topic. Some thoughts that have been brewing for a couple of days and a new one this morning....
  
  Apparently, our government places much more value on producing cars than it does educating the children of this country and protecting the citizens of this country......
  
  http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/23/news/companies/gm_bailout/index.htm
  
  a 'Sweetheart' deal for GM that will allow them to make millions after we, the taxpayers, bailed them out with billions of our dollars.
  
  This, coupled with what is going on around the country with the states union-busting of the police, firefighters, teachers and state employees....states trying to balance their budgets on the backs of public workers.
  
  Interesting priorities.
  
  I have an idea...instead of using public workers to balance budgets, why not share the burden? Effective immediately, I think that the states should pass a resolution that calls for a 10% cut in each and every contract that they have entered into for goods and services, employment, etc. Then, those companies whose contracts have been cut can pass those cuts on to their workers in the form of a 10% pay cut.
  
  For instance, if the State of Ohio is contracted to pay $100,000 for new office furniture....the bill is now $90,000. When the State pays the office furniture company the $90,000...then the workers who built the office furniture have their salary cut by that 10% to make up for the lesser amount that the office furniture company was paid. Then, when the office furniture company payes their corporate income taxes, their revenues are down 10%, so their tax payment to the State and Federal Government is lessed...there by forcing cuts in things like entitlement programs by 10%.
  
  That way, everyone plays in the 'let's balance the budget' game.

  
  You do realize that in nearly every private sector employee has already gone through layoffs and pay cuts like 10% or more right?
• O-Trap

  

  jmog;688302 wrote:You do realize that in nearly every private sector employee has already gone through layoffs and pay cuts like 10% or more right?

  
  10? I (and the rest of my department) went through an 18% pay cut less than three months into the job.
• WebFire

  wkfan;688246 wrote:First, let me say that I have never been a union member or worked in an industry that had any sort of union representation......
  
  However, if you think that many of the good things that you enjoy about your job...the 40 hour work week, paid sick time, vacation, partially paid for benefits...are not the result of collective bargaining that has happened in the past, you need to review your history lessons.
  
  Those organized collective bargaining agreements forged early in this century have spilled over into our non-union workplace to make it a better place.

  
  So that is reason to keep CBA/unions even if it may not be needed?
• WebFire

  WebFire;688309 wrote:So that is reason to keep CBA/unions even if it may not be needed?

  
  Sorry, I need to keep up. In the time I took to answer a phone call, like 15 new posts were added.
• O-Trap

  

  WebFire;688309 wrote:So that is reason to keep CBA/unions even if it may not be needed?

  
  You made the same mistake I did.
  

  wkfan;688283 wrote:Please show me where I advocated keeping unions around?

• jmog

  wkfan;688260 wrote:While I happen to agree with you that the time for Unions has long passed....may of the benefits that you and I enjoy are as a result of them. Those laws regarding minimum wage, working conditions, etc are a direct result of what those workers fought for.
  
  The simple reason that the time for unions have passed....is because they were here!

  
  I'm confused then, you say the time for unions have passed, but at the same time say you are for unions and against SB5?
  
  
  I agree, like anyone, for decades unions were needed, but we are at a point in history when they are not anymore and unions now aren't making progress (as they did in the past), they are hindering it.
  
  
  Sorry, I'm late on the "catch up" too....
• wkfan

  jmog;688302 wrote:You do realize that in nearly every private sector employee has already gone through layoffs and pay cuts like 10% or more right?

  And yet...here we are.
  
  Some public sector employees (teachers and office workers, primarily) have taken salary freezes voluntarily as well as paid a much greater percentage of their high deductible health insurance.
  
  I dispute your claim that "nearly every private sector employee has already gone through layoffs and pay cuts like 10% or more...." Sure, many tens of thousands of people have been laid off and many tens of thousands have had their salaries cut.....but your assertion that "nearly every private sector employee" has suffered this fate is embellishing the situation just a tad, don't you think??
  
  My proposal would allow every single person to share in the helping to restore our state to fiscal viability and not just lay it on the backs of state workers, teachers, police and firefighters.
  
  Equal sacrifice......
• wkfan

  WebFire;688309 wrote:So that is reason to keep CBA/unions even if it may not be needed?

  Nope....never said that. Just a point of history.
• jmog

  O-Trap;688307 wrote:10? I (and the rest of my department) went through an 18% pay cut less than three months into the job.

  
  Last place I worked went through a 16%, 10% in pay, and lost all 401k matching (6%).
  
  My current place "only" got cut 10%.
• wkfan

  jmog;688314 wrote:I'm confused then, you say the time for unions have passed, but at the same time say you are for unions and against SB5?
  
  
  I agree, like anyone, for decades unions were needed, but we are at a point in history when they are not anymore and unions now aren't making progress (as they did in the past), they are hindering it.

  Again...please show me where I said that I was pro-union.
  
  I am just for shared sacrifice rather than using the backs of state and county workers, teachers, fireffighters and police to solve a state-wide problem.