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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

  • Writerbuckeye
    redstreak one;682910 wrote:What areas? Anyone know? My only major problem with this bill is the unnamed plan on the merit system. I would think one would want to have something lined up on this issue.

    I'm hoping how local districts or governments want to do this is determined by the local community itself. Why would anyone want a cookie cutter merit based evaluation program when every school district is so uniquely different? Let the school boards put together a committee of locals, including administrators, teachers and community members to come up with a plan.

    It makes far more sense than anything that could come out of Columbus or Washington, for that matter.
  • queencitybuckeye
    tsst_fballfan;682942 wrote:Am I missing something? Why does post count matter with regards to anything? Does it give you some special access or privilege?

    At 10,000 posts they refund your membership fee.
  • bonelizzard
    Fly4Fun;682982 wrote:I'm not the official mod of this forum.... but lets keep this thread on topic and end all ridiculous talk of post count.

    (End of my moderator related speech.)

    Bonelizzard,

    It is easy to tell when someone has run out of intelligent things to say... they resort to ad hominem attacks or resort to talking about things that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand (e.g. post counts). Instead of just repeating the same list of people and making blanket statements how it is bad, you could become involved in the discussion in a meaningful manner.
    that's fine.. my opinion.. it's all relevant.. and I feel intelligent.. I'm not the expert when it comes to education and all of the correct answers. I know you guys aren't the experts and/or have all of the answers either. I don't spend much time in this forum, nor in chat forums for that matter. Many of you have and do spend several hours on this every day. I can't compete with that, or even try to. I feel by listing the Senators may be 1 thing that I can do to help educate those 7 or 8 people viewing and hopefully help to spread the word to others. That's all. If by repeating the same list of people offended you, I apologize. but as the thread becomes larger, I just want it to be seen. I guess that's not a good thing to do? Apparently so.. Even to the point where some posters will copy my post and edit the list of senators to their likings opposite the way I have posted it originally. Ok I've washed my hands clean of this forum and wish you all farewell. It really was entertaining to me.. and thanks.. little smiley faces and everything..
    oh did I mention that your kids are at risk in Ohio public schools if SB5 passes..
  • O-Trap
    bonelizzard;683017 wrote:oh did I mention that your kids are at risk in Ohio public schools if SB5 passes..
    Yes, and it's one of the reasons that it is difficult to take you seriously.
  • queencitybuckeye
    bonelizzard;683017 wrote:oh did I mention that your kids are at risk in Ohio public schools if SB5 passes..

    As opposed to the leaders in learning that they are now?
  • O-Trap
    ernest_t_bass;683001 wrote:

    I admit it. I crack up when you post this.
  • Gblock
    queencitybuckeye;683026 wrote:As opposed to the leaders in learning that they are now?

    ohio public schools ranks fifth in the nation
  • queencitybuckeye
    Gblock;683033 wrote:ohio public schools ranks fifth in the nation

    As ranked by whom?
  • O-Trap
    Gblock;683033 wrote:ohio public schools ranks fifth in the nation

    And yet, again, there are many students who are continuing to move up grade levels without having learned anywhere close to the material they need to. The things I've been harping on are real examples of kids I know. 17-year-old girl that was never taught two-digit multiplication in school, but learned it very quickly from a non-teacher in an after-school program? 15-year-old freshman that can't even read a Dr. Seuss book?

    These are students in the Ohio school system, and they're being passed along each year.

    When the nation's educational system, as a whole, is broken, even being #1 might not mean that much.
  • redstreak one
    Writerbuckeye;682962 wrote:This will have major impact at local levels, like school districts, by giving them more control over costs. Obviously, staffing is the bulk of what it costs to run a school district.

    As for the state, every penny counts at this point, and I'm thinking this will probably end up saving more than that when everything is taken into account.

    I agree every penny counts, but 1/13th, or heck if you want lets say 500 million, or 1/8 of the problem is a start, but where can government shave the remaining 3.4 Billion?

    Governor Walker and Wisconsin rolled this out as saying that the state was not going to be able to keep pace at current levels. Alright, I buy that, but what else after this bill saves them that money, what else is out there to save money on?

    I only ask because I dont have a problem with biting the bullet to stave off the wolves. However, I dont want this to end up being nothing more than a power grab by government to do nothing more than weaken the last of the big unions for no more reason than they can!
  • Gblock
    O-Trap;683040 wrote:And yet, again, there are many students who are continuing to move up grade levels without having learned anywhere close to the material they need to. The things I've been harping on are real examples of kids I know. 17-year-old girl that was never taught two-digit multiplication in school, but learned it very quickly from a non-teacher in an after-school program? 15-year-old freshman that can't even read a Dr. Seuss book?

    These are students in the Ohio school system, and they're being passed along each year.

    When the nation's educational system, as a whole, is broken, even being #1 might not mean that much.

    even with this bill students will eventually have to be passed on....you cant have 16 year olds in middle school. the students have to accept responsibility for some of that. I dont believe in "lost cause" students. I believe all students can learn. but i also know students do not learn when they are not at school and they do not learn from work they do not do. i bet the kids your talking about miss 10-30 school days per year. when you factor this in over a number of years it makes our job very difficult. also reading instruction for the most part at this point stops around 5th-6th grade. if you havent gotten it by then you are going to have to stay after school for tutoring or another program. most schools offer this but i bet the kids in question dont go. and again how will this bill change that?
  • Fly4Fun
    Honestly, I think public schools for the most part failed me and my family growing up. My brother, sister and I, never got placed into any of the special advanced programs that the schools run for their supposedly more intelligent students. But yet, we always placed in the top 1 percentile of those achievement tests. We ended up leaving the public school system and going to private for high school. My brother and I attended St. Charles and my sister attended CSG. We all were placed in the more advanced programs at those schools and all continued to do well throughout college and graduate school (my sister and I are in law school, while my brother is finishing his last year of dental school). I think the very fact that we were constantly overlooked and ignored by teachers in the public school system doesn't speak highly of their efficacy. And of the students who did get into said advanced programs in the public schools, they didn't always end up being the smartest, but were often just the most outgoing of the students. I know my best teachers and most engaged/engaging teachers I ever had were at St. Charles Preparatory School.

    When I have kids I might send them to public school for the younger grades... but come time for college preparation (aka high school) they will not be going to public high school.

    Also, I'd like to point out that it's not as if we grew up in a school district that was terrible, I'm from Dublin. It's just that the quality of teachers at private schools and focus of private schools are just that much better.
  • Gblock
    the ranking is not based on students who are passed along its based on graduation rates, and test scores maybe even numbers of students who go on to college...im not sure tho....you can google the rankings which is what i did a few minutes ago. some rankings had us in 4th some 5th and some 6th....the one i referenced was an article in the t oledo blade... you cant graduate with out passing all parts of OAA and being at least proficient with a 400 score
  • Gblock
    O-Trap;683040 wrote:And yet, again, there are many students who are continuing to move up grade levels without having learned anywhere close to the material they need to. The things I've been harping on are real examples of kids I know. 17-year-old girl that was never taught two-digit multiplication in school, but learned it very quickly from a non-teacher in an after-school program? 15-year-old freshman that can't even read a Dr. Seuss book?

    These are students in the Ohio school system, and they're being passed along each year.

    When the nation's educational system, as a whole, is broken, even being #1 might not mean that much.

    also they dont teach the two digit multiplication anymore because you get a calculator for the test fyi....i personally make them learn it first before using calculators but some districts dont require it and teach all math skills using the calculator that is used on the OAA Ti-30xIIs is the model i think
  • Gblock
    http://article.wn.com/view/2010/01/15/Ohio_public_schools_rank_fifth/
  • O-Trap
    Gblock;683048 wrote:even with this bill students will eventually have to be passed on....you cant have 16 year olds in middle school. the students have to accept responsibility for some of that.
    Of course, but when you're finding dozens of these students in a very small area who are very interested in learning (as evidenced every time I meet with them), but show a staggeringly poor education level, the issue is not the students' willingness to learn. That 17-year-old girl mentions, nearly every time she comes, that she wants to be the valedictorian.

    And if a 16-year-old is not trying, I agree that they can't be in Middle School. However, if a student isn't trying, that doesn't mean they should just be passed along. "Three strikes and you pass" doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
    Gblock;683048 wrote:I dont believe in "lost cause" students. I believe all students can learn. but i also know students do not learn when they are not at school and they do not learn from work they do not do.
    Agreed.
    Gblock;683048 wrote:i bet the kids your talking about miss 10-30 school days per year.
    One of them was recently in the paper for having never missed a day of school since she was in Kindergarten, and the last two years, my wife and I have taken turns picking her up from school. She's even on Student Council. She's a better student than I was at her age.
    Gblock;683048 wrote:when you factor this in over a number of years it makes our job very difficult.
    I empathise in these kinds of circumstances, and I wouldn't blame you one bit. There are those kinds of kids at the youth center as well, but I'm not talking about them.

    For what it's worth, they don't show improvement in the after-school program, either, and are only there about a third of the time.
    Gblock;683048 wrote:also reading instruction for the most part at this point stops around 5th-6th grade. if you havent gotten it by then you are going to have to stay after school for tutoring or another program. most schools offer this but i bet the kids in question dont go. and again how will this bill change that?
    This bill will weed out the teachers that don't teach, because when they have to negotiate for themselves, they won't have a leg on which to stand. The lower third of a class, fine. You probably won't see much learning done there, especially if you are in poor, ethnic, urban areas (like here in North Hill). However, when most of the kids aren't learning much if anything, you can't blame it all on the kids.

    Moreover, when so many other countries have students who, whether in testing or graduation rates, are blowing our students out of the water, it can't just be the kids not wanting to learn.
    Gblock;683051 wrote:the ranking is not based on students who are passed along its based on graduation rates, and test scores maybe even numbers of students who go on to college...im not sure tho....you can google the rankings which is what i did a few minutes ago. some rankings had us in 4th some 5th and some 6th....the one i referenced was an article in the t oledo blade... you cant graduate with out passing all parts of OAA and being at least proficient with a 400 score
    I'd be interested in seeing the hard data from that study, like the top graduation rates and such.
  • O-Trap
    Gblock;683053 wrote:also they dont teach the two digit multiplication anymore because you get a calculator for the test fyi....i personally make them learn it first before using calculators but some districts dont require it and teach all math skills using the calculator that is used on the OAA Ti-30xIIs is the model i think

    Thank you. I mean that. Knowing that is indeed helpful in regard to how I interact with my kids.

    I'd contend it's still a problem that the curriculum is now leaning less and less on students knowing how it works (the "educated" part) and more and more on the use of a calculator.
  • Gblock
    other countries dont try to educate "all" children by the way. the ones who blow us out of the water identify gifted and talented students and weed out the rest. and yes schools have lots of issues but this bill wont fix any of the issues you describe imo. in fact i think it might make it worse. also the teachers are too easy of a target. if you cant read by 16 honestly you didnt try and your parents never taught you. if they cant read why didnt a parent have them put in special ed?.... my mom taught me how to read and how to multiply and she never went to college. this is a community issue not just schools. and it will continue to happen unfortunately with or without this bill. (off soapbox now lol)
  • ernest_t_bass
    Dear people... I will say this yet again. Poor teachers teaching, and not getting any better, and not being axed... that is the fault of ADMINISTRATION... it's not the fault of the educational system.

    If a restaurant manager lets you serve meat that is two weeks past its prime (or whatever the hell you call it), is it the fault of the employee who knew no better, and thought it was ok? Is it the fault of the health inspector? Was it the fault of the educational system?

    I'll tell you whose fault it is... OBAMA! :D
  • O-Trap
    Gblock;683088 wrote:other countries dont try to educate "all" children by the way. the ones who blow us out of the water identify gifted and talented students and weed out the rest. and yes schools have lots of issues but this bill wont fix any of the issues you describe imo. in fact i think it might make it worse. also the teachers are too easy of a target. if you cant read by 16 honestly you didnt try and your parents never taught you. if they cant read why didnt a parent have them put in special ed?.... my mom taught me how to read and how to multiply and she never went to college. this is a community issue not just schools. and it will continue to happen unfortunately with or without this bill. (off soapbox now lol)
    The parent (no "s") in most cases doesn't spend a whole lot of time with the kids, so the parent might not even know the kids cannot read.

    I agree that it is a community issue, which is why I spend so much time with these kids. They usually have one parent or legal guardian, and that person rarely shows a very involved level of interest in the child's education.

    As far as other countries, test scores across the board are better in many other countries (top of the class to bottom), and graduation rates take the class as a whole into account. If it's a gifted child issue, then don't we have a proportionate number of gifted students here as well?
    ernest_t_bass;683091 wrote:Dear people... I will say this yet again. Poor teachers teaching, and not getting any better, and not being axed... that is the fault of ADMINISTRATION... it's not the fault of the educational system.
    I'd say all share some of the blame. Many teachers don't teach because they don't have to. They don't have to because the administration won't get rid of them. The administration (in many cases) won't get rid of them because a collective can bully the administration into not canning "one of their own." The collective can do this because the system allows it.

    Now, are there teachers that DO teach, even if they wouldn't be canned? Yes, and they're good teachers, who deserve their jobs and a good compensation. Are their good administrators? Absolutely! Are there benevolent unions? On the whole, I'm certain there are. Is the system broken at every turn? Not at all.
    ernest_t_bass;683091 wrote:If a restaurant manager lets you serve meat that is two weeks past its prime (or whatever the hell you call it), is it the fault of the employee who knew no better, and thought it was ok?
    If you're a college-educated, trained "professional" (that word is almost been a punchline in this discussion), then you know fully well what you're supposed to be serving. Thus, you DO know better, and you DO share a good chunk of the blame as the server.
    ernest_t_bass;683091 wrote:I'll tell you whose fault it is... OBAMA! :D
    Nah, this was around long before the current president.
  • Gblock
    other countries dont test and report all students that is a fact
  • O-Trap
    Gblock;683136 wrote:other countries dont test and report all students that is a fact

    Not that I don't believe you, as it wouldn't surprise me at all, but how do you know this?

    Moreover, does the US? I don't exactly consider the US any more "ethical" than any other country by definition, so it wouldn't surprise me if the US fudged some of the numbers as well.
  • Gblock
    we are one of the only countries to educate all children many dont require schooling past middle. some like china those who are behind get vocational training or are tracked in more of a general education setting...everyone doesnt take AP type classes. it is pretty common knowledge in teaching circles but i last heard this info from lectures in college classes getting my principal degree. ill try to provide a link
  • O-Trap
    Gblock;683149 wrote:we are one of the only countries to educate all children many dont require schooling past middle. some like china those who are behind get vocational training or are tracked in more of a general education setting...everyone doesnt take AP type classes. it is pretty common knowledge in teaching circles but i last heard this info from lectures in college classes getting my principal degree. ill try to provide a link

    Much appreciated!
  • wkfan
    O-Trap;683145 wrote:Not that I don't believe you, as it wouldn't surprise me at all, but how do you know this?

    Moreover, does the US? I don't exactly consider the US any more "ethical" than any other country by definition, so it wouldn't surprise me if the US fudged some of the numbers as well.
    We do know that other contries, such as Japan, China, etc do not educate all of their children.

    In those countries, if you do not pass the entrance test to high school, you do not attend high school. Rather, you attend a trade school or something like that. Countries who differentiate their students in that manner do not report them as high school or university participants...because they are not.

    In our country, we are bound to educate all students....in fact, those on IEPs (Individualized Education Plans), mainstreamed Special Education students, etc are counted in state, district, school and individuel teacher statistics, such as AYP.

    You cannot compare our apples to their oranges.