Archive

Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

  • Writerbuckeye
    Al Bundy;765703 wrote:I said some starting teachers with a family are near the poverty level. I know this data is 3 years, but even if the starting salary inceased by 3% (highly unlikely with the economy the last 3 years), lower end starting teachers are still near the poverty level if they have a family of four. http://www.ohea.org/beginning-teacher-salaries

    Don't most teaching contracts (salary schedules) have step increases built into them?
  • Al Bundy
    BRF;765726 wrote:I am so sorry that I have listened to union "blather" for 35 years. Wish me luck. Maybe I will call upon you successful posters in the private sector for some tips! hahahaha!

    BRF, I was a teacher for my first 8 years out of college. I have worked in the private sector for the past 7 years. In the private sector, the work is easier, and the pay is better. I teach adjunct classes at the college level on occasion when the schedule works out for me. I enjoy teaching, but the additional dollars in the private sector were too much to pass up.
  • Al Bundy
    Writerbuckeye;765793 wrote:Don't most teaching contracts (salary schedules) have step increases built into them?

    I was referring to first year teachers who would be at step 0.
  • WebFire
    BRF;765732 wrote:I see that the "sides" are now being defined. That is good.

    Who cares about who started what.

    Ya know, posting those poverty rating scales and trying to make it look like a first year teacher is WAY above the poverty level..........nice try.

    Wow, the hypocrisy is crazy here.

    And yes, even at your low starting example, the teacher was more than double poverty level. Fact.
  • BRF
    WebFire;765800 wrote:Wow, the hypocrisy is crazy here.

    And yes, even at your low starting example, the teacher was more than double poverty level. Fact.

    Wow! Double the poverty level for a college grad. Frickin awesome. Meanwhile, I just listened to the Tribe and hear a "middle reliever" pitch 1 inning on his 3 Million dollar salary. Oh....I believe that they do have a union and collective bargaining. But....let's just go after the teachers that make a whopping double over the poverty level!

    Al Bundy: I am looking into that "adjunct" business. Thanks for the input.

    But, I will be on my own and negotiating for myself, oh my! ;-)

    Hypocrisy! Pffft.
  • Al Bundy
    BRF;765836 wrote:Wow! Double the poverty level for a college grad. Frickin awesome. Meanwhile, I just listened to the Tribe and hear a "middle reliever" pitch 1 inning on his 3 Million dollar salary. Oh....I believe that they do have a union and collective bargaining. But....let's just go after the teachers that make a whopping double over the poverty level!

    Al Bundy: I am looking into that "adjunct" business. Thanks for the input.

    But, I will be on my own and negotiating for myself, oh my! ;-)

    Hypocrisy! Pffft.
    Most of the adjunct rates are set and nonnegotiable. Good thing since you can't negotiate :) Good luck with that. I do it more because I enjoy it, and it is a way to help students than the money.
  • Al Bundy
    WebFire;765800 wrote:Wow, the hypocrisy is crazy here.

    And yes, even at your low starting example, the teacher was more than double poverty level. Fact.
    I had said a teacher with a family of four. Either you can't what was written in the post, or you can't read the table.
  • BRF
    Al Bundy;765844 wrote: I do it more because I enjoy it, and it is a way to help students than the money.

    Imagine that. Helping out a young person....and enjoying it. :-)
  • georgemc80
    QuakerOats;765351 wrote:Bizarre. Radical change is exactly what is necessary so as to save ourselves from sending another generation of dumbed-down children out into the most competitive environment we have ever faced. Change cannot occur fast enough.


    Well by all means, we should simply stop educating everyone. Start shuffling the overachieving first graders down a path, the middle group down another and the worst first graders, they can stay home and play with their shovel. In fact I find it funny that you think eliminating collective bargaining will do this. Relax, the teacher who hurt your feelings can't hurt you anymore.

    Chicken Little thinks you're overreacting.

    Whenever a decision has been made about a school, I always wonder if someone who has ever been in a classroom made the decision or at the bare minimum consulted someone. Ive seen it in both new school buildings I have opened. Poor design and functionality abound.


    Let me reiterate, I am not pro union...in fact I am the exact opposite, however immediate, radical change, just for the sake of change is not safe when messing with the public education system. When it involves a school, there has to be research and models tested before a system wide change is implemented. The stakes are too high.
  • WebFire
    Al Bundy;765846 wrote:I had said a teacher with a family of four. Either you can't what was written in the post, or you can't read the table.

    No no. He changed it to that after it was pointed out to him how wrong he was. Guess you are the one that can't read.
  • WebFire
    BRF;765836 wrote:Wow! Double the poverty level for a college grad. Frickin awesome. Meanwhile, I just listened to the Tribe and hear a "middle reliever" pitch 1 inning on his 3 Million dollar salary. Oh....I believe that they do have a union and collective bargaining. But....let's just go after the teachers that make a whopping double over the poverty level!

    Al Bundy: I am looking into that "adjunct" business. Thanks for the input.

    But, I will be on my own and negotiating for myself, oh my! ;-)

    Hypocrisy! Pffft.
    Wow, just wow. First you claim a teacher is near poverty. Then it's pointed out it's no where close and you still keep hammering on it.

    And go ahead and cut that pitcher's salary. Let me know how that cuts into the state's deficit? :rolleyes:
  • WebFire
    Or maybe it was Al that started the poverty thing. Hell, I've lost track.
  • majorspark
    Glory Days;765735 wrote:So now you dont like that people with college degrees get paid more than people without them but with more experience?
    I have a college degree (Bachelors of Science) in an engineering related field and I get paid more than those without them. In my field it is extremely rare you get hired without a degree. The context of my post is comparing those that have earned college degrees and are just entering the field, should expect to be paid considerably less than an individual with a similar degree that has proven himself or holds considerable knowledge through experience. I am not comparing blue collar employees with white collar. I am not comparing teachers with janitors.
    Glory Days;765735 wrote:sounds like we are back at "getting even" again.
    With who?
    Glory Days;765735 wrote:so just because you have a family you should be paid more?
    Absolutely not. All I am saying is those with more post degree experience are more likely to be those with families to support (they are older). Not those just entering the work place after earning their degree.
    Glory Days;765735 wrote:maybe those people shouldnt have started a family if they cant support one?
    Nobody should. I don't care who you are.
    Glory Days;765735 wrote:maybe the people without degrees and with families should have negotiated better pay if they deserve it
    They should. They would have to rely heavily on their performance, knowledge, and experience.
    Glory Days;765735 wrote:i thought you non union people were smarter than that :)
    I clarified any misunderstandings of my previous post in this one. If you still don't get it well then I thought you union people were smarter than that.
  • Al Bundy
    WebFire;765892 wrote:Or maybe it was Al that started the poverty thing. Hell, I've lost track.
    I first brought it up in post #2535 and I said families the very first time that I brought it. I have explained that to you several times. Now you see what teachers go through when they have to explain the same topic multiple times for those that don't learn things at the same level as everyone else :)
  • ernest_t_bass
    WebFire;765679 wrote:Yes, but I also didn't start out at 30k, with good health and retirement benefits.

    Webfire, when did you enter the workforce? I did in 2004. I started at roughly $26k. Due to inflation, it is now $30k. When BRF started, it was probably $5k. If you started in the workforce over 20 years ago, of course you didn't make $30k, and neither did teachers.
  • majorspark
    Al Bundy;765703 wrote:I said some starting teachers with a family are near the poverty level. I know this data is 3 years, but even if the starting salary inceased by 3% (highly unlikely with the economy the last 3 years), lower end starting teachers are still near the poverty level if they have a family of four. http://www.ohea.org/beginning-teacher-salaries
    Some can be a very small amount. You are showing me the lowest percentile of all teachers starting wages. Now show me what percentage of that small percentage of teachers starting at the bottom percentile have families of four or five.
  • Al Bundy
    majorspark;765945 wrote:Some can be a very small amount. You are showing me the lowest percentile of all teachers starting wages. Now show me what percentage of that small percentage of teachers starting at the bottom percentile have families of four or five.

    No teacher should have a starting salary of $22,000 (I adjusted the numbers for inflation since they were 3 years old, but with pay freezes, many districts have not increased their zero step).
  • sleeper
    Al Bundy;765957 wrote:No teacher should have a starting salary of $22,000 (I adjusted the numbers for inflation since they were 3 years old, but with pay freezes, many districts have not increased their zero step).

    Why?
  • dwccrew
    BRF;765836 wrote:Wow! Double the poverty level for a college grad. Frickin awesome. Meanwhile, I just listened to the Tribe and hear a "middle reliever" pitch 1 inning on his 3 Million dollar salary. Oh....I believe that they do have a union and collective bargaining. But....let's just go after the teachers that make a whopping double over the poverty level!

    Al Bundy: I am looking into that "adjunct" business. Thanks for the input.

    But, I will be on my own and negotiating for myself, oh my! ;-)

    Hypocrisy! Pffft.

    Did you really just try and compare a professional athlete and their union to tax funded employees and unions? HAHAHAHAHAHA
  • CenterBHSFan
    georgemc80;765868 wrote:Let me reiterate, I am not pro union...in fact I am the exact opposite, however immediate, radical change, just for the sake of change is not safe when messing with the public education system. When it involves a school, there has to be research and models tested before a system wide change is implemented. The stakes are too high.
    Was it radical to the point of immediate threat of collapse when teachers unionized in Ohio?
    Were the stakes too high to unionize to start?
    How can it be so dangerous to limit collective bargaining when it wasn't dangerous to implement it to begin with?
  • WebFire
    ernest_t_bass;765936 wrote:Webfire, when did you enter the workforce? I did in 2004. I started at roughly $26k. Due to inflation, it is now $30k. When BRF started, it was probably $5k. If you started in the workforce over 20 years ago, of course you didn't make $30k, and neither did teachers.

    I would say there are probably still many grads that don't make $30k with their first real job. Of course it depends on the course of study. I know where I work, probably 80% of the college grads coming in make less than $30k.

    I had my first "real" job out of college in 2000. Starting out making around $8. After about a year, I was promoted (based on merit of course), and bumped to $30k salary. But I had to pay 100% of my health care, which I passed on.
  • WebFire
    Al Bundy;765957 wrote:No teacher should have a starting salary of $22,000 (I adjusted the numbers for inflation since they were 3 years old, but with pay freezes, many districts have not increased their zero step).

    And very few do.
  • WebFire
    Al Bundy;765934 wrote:I first brought it up in post #2535 and I said families the very first time that I brought it. I have explained that to you several times. Now you see what teachers go through when they have to explain the same topic multiple times for those that don't learn things at the same level as everyone else :)

    And I think it was discussed that it would be rare for a teacher fresh from college to have a family of four. It was also discussed that a college grad with a family of four would be in the same position most likely.

    So what is your point? I mean, to make your point, let's say they have a family of 8. They'd be making almost 1/2 of poverty level! GASP!
  • Con_Alma
    Salaries shouldn't be based on supporting a family of four. That's ridiculous. Salaries should be determined by value and market forces.
  • Al Bundy
    Con_Alma;766069 wrote:Salaries shouldn't be based on supporting a family of four. That's ridiculous. Salaries should be determined by value and market forces.
    How do you measure value when we are talking about an industry which does not measure its productivity with a dollar amount? As I have said before, I spent my first 8 years out of college as a teacher, and I have worked in the the private industry the last 7 years. I really don't think many of you understand how much easier the work is and how much better the pay is in the private system compared to teaching the public system. My pay is almost what it would be in the public system. I don't have to deal with discipline problems, IEP's, parents, etc. I never have to come home at night and spend 3 hours grading calculus exams.