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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

  • believer
    Glory Days;761960 wrote:You mean like the governor of a state passing a law without any input from the cities it will effect?
    So the governor did this all by himself? Or did the people's elected representatives in the state legislature introduce the bill, debate the bill, and pass the bill before the governor signed it into law?
    Al Bundy;762045 wrote:If union members in an elected positions make a decision, they are the gestapo?
    No...just their boss thugs.
  • BRF
    Al Bundy;762045 wrote:If elected government officials make a decision, they are representing those that elected them. If union members in an elected positions make a decision, they are the gestapo?

    My thought, too. That's why I said earlier today that it sounds like representative democracy to me. Then, I'm told that it is "apples to zebras".
  • Writerbuckeye
    An organization has no excuse for not allow ALL members to vote -- unless of course, they want to control how voting comes out.

    Please explain to me why something that is this important shouldn't go to a vote of ALL members or, better yet, be entirely voluntary and not mandatory that people donate?

    If the union is so damn dead certain they are on the side of the angels here, then why not give people their freedom to choose whether to fall in line with their pocketbooks.

    You know the reason -- and so do I.

    Setting up the system so union cronies are the ones voting on this, is NOT giving people freedom of choice.

    You know that as well.

    What I can't understand is why you choose to defend what amounts to strong-arm practices as opposed to freedom. I'd love to hear your rationale.
  • Al Bundy
    Writerbuckeye;762099 wrote:An organization has no excuse for not allow ALL members to vote -- unless of course, they want to control how voting comes out.
    It is scary how similar that sounds to our state legislatures not making something as important as SB5 a ballot issue.
  • Writerbuckeye
    Al Bundy;762122 wrote:It is scary how similar that sounds to our state legislatures not making something as important as SB5 a ballot issue.

    Ridiculous. You could say that about just about every bill that's passed. The Founding Fathers didn't want direct Democracy for a reason. Take a look a California if you want to see what governing by ballot issue ends up doing to a state.
  • WebFire
    Al Bundy;762122 wrote:It is scary how similar that sounds to our state legislatures not making something as important as SB5 a ballot issue.

    I won't disagree with this. Our political system is a freaking mess. Partisan politics is ruining this nation.
  • Al Bundy
    Writerbuckeye;762128 wrote:Ridiculous. You could say that about just about every bill that's passed. The Founding Fathers didn't want direct Democracy for a reason. Take a look a California if you want to see what governing by ballot issue ends up doing to a state.

    I know that. I was just pointing out your hypocracy in that you want representives to vote when it goes the way you want something to go, and you want ever member voting when something doesn't go the way that you want it to go.
  • Writerbuckeye
    An organization is not the same as our government.

    No hypocrisy.
  • BRF
    Al Bundy;762157 wrote:I know that. I was just pointing out your hypocracy in that you want representives to vote when it goes the way you want something to go, and you want ever member voting when something doesn't go the way that you want it to go.

    And BRF says great point. One that I have been trying to make........the hypocrisy (edit........:-) ) of it.

    Now, I will address Writerbuckeye for my "rationale".

    The first two parts of your post have already been addressed by Al. However, the "tags" of "you know" do not wash with me. You know what I am thinking? Really? You don't, evidently.

    You call the union leaders "Gestapo" and then say:

    "... you choose to defend what amounts to strong-arm practices as opposed to freedom. "

    That's rich.

    Heil Writerbuckeye!
  • Writerbuckeye
    I'd take both of you more serious if you could learn how to COPY the spelling of hypocrisy. :)
  • BRF
    Writerbuckeye;762224 wrote:I'd take both of you more serious if you could learn how to COPY the spelling of hypocrisy. :)

    Oops..............I knew that didn't look right. I will fix it.

    Now I am going to lose a thousand dollars on the merit pay system. But don't worry, I will kiss ass and get it back!! ;-)
  • CenterBHSFan
    Writerbuckeye;762099 wrote:Please explain to me why something that is this important shouldn't go to a vote of ALL members or, better yet, be entirely voluntary and not mandatory that people donate?

    If the union is so damn dead certain they are on the side of the angels here, then why not give people their freedom to choose whether to fall in line with their pocketbooks.

    This is all.

    As I said before, the police and firefighters had enough foresight and common sense to choose this route.
    The teachers didn't and botched the whole concept, IMO.

    At this stage of my life, I can honestly say that I would NOT appreciate a union (or any other peripheal entity not directly involved with my employment) helping themselves to some arbitrary amount of money exclusively for a political campaign.

    Even going back to my early 20's when I was all for the unions and liberality, I wouldn't be accepting of it because a dollar was a dollar and I would have needed to put that money elsewhere... like the electric bill.

    Why the teachers union believes that it has a RIGHT to financially jack their members this way is beyond me. I cannot but be at a loss as to why people (meaning the posters on this forum, and elsewhere for that matter) are complacent and supportive of it.
    Is this a case of where you'll let the union run roughshod with your money to justify their political campaign?

    *EDIT*

    If you think that this is really a "personal" thing that Sherrod Brown states, well then I just don't even know what to think of that. I would hope to believe that everybody knows that the higher ups in unions don't give a damn about your individuality.

    What has happened to you?
  • believer
    CenterBHSFan;762356 wrote:I would hope to believe that everybody knows that the higher ups in unions don't give a damn about your individuality.

    What has happened to you?
    You too will become one with the Borg......

  • queencitybuckeye
    Al Bundy;762045 wrote:If elected government officials make a decision, they are representing those that elected them. If union members in an elected positions make a decision, they are the gestapo?

    Both have constitutions. One is following theirs, the other is ignoring it.
  • Writerbuckeye
    queencitybuckeye;762407 wrote:Both have constitutions. One is following theirs, the other is ignoring it.

    I'm curious what you mean, QCB.
  • BRF
    Hey! Writerbuckeye asks a question and it is ignored. That is not acceptable. When he asks a question...he wants the answer...NOW!

    So, I will help. QCB obviously meant that the governor and his lackies in the GA are shoving SB5 down the throats of the people of Ohio! ;-)
  • believer
    BRF;763551 wrote:So, I will help. QCB obviously meant that the governor and his lackies in the GA are shoving SB5 down the throats of the people of Ohio! ;-)
    Yeah...the same people who put the Governor and his GA lackeys in office. :rolleyes:
  • queencitybuckeye
    Writerbuckeye;762447 wrote:I'm curious what you mean, QCB.

    Our constitution calls for a representative government, while the union constitutions I've seen clearly intend for them to be a democracy.
  • Writerbuckeye
    queencitybuckeye;763856 wrote:Our constitution calls for a representative government, while the union constitutions I've seen clearly intend for them to be a democracy.

    You mean they intend for them to be a democracy EXCEPT when it comes to voting on important things like whether the union should be able to just take another $54 dollars from your paycheck to fund a political campaign. Then we only let our most trusted union lackeys vote, and tell the others to go screw themselves.
  • FatHobbit
    Student progress is how Kasich wants to measure teacher performance.

    http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/05/10/kasich-outlines-his-view-on-how-to-judge-teachers.html?sid=101

    I think some teachers are going to be at a huge disadvantage if that is how they do it.
  • Al Bundy
    FatHobbit;764108 wrote:Student progress is how Kasich wants to measure teacher performance.

    http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/05/10/kasich-outlines-his-view-on-how-to-judge-teachers.html?sid=101

    I think some teachers are going to be at a huge disadvantage if that is how they do it.

    The article doesn't say how the progress will be measured, so it is hard to know who will be at an advantage/disadvantage.
  • FatHobbit
    Al Bundy;764131 wrote:The article doesn't say how the progress will be measured, so it is hard to know who will be at an advantage/disadvantage.

    I think that is the main question that teachers have. How exactly will it be measured?
  • WebFire
    FatHobbit;764136 wrote:I think that is the main question that teachers have. How exactly will it be measured?

    It's only a portion. I would expect a portion to be based on student performance. And isn't it over a 3 year period or something? That way you aren't measuring just one group of students.
  • Al Bundy
    WebFire;764156 wrote:It's only a portion. I would expect a portion to be based on student performance. And isn't it over a 3 year period or something? That way you aren't measuring just one group of students.

    Student performance and student progress are not the same measure
  • WebFire
    Well I assume if they are performing poorly they are also not progressing?