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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

  • sleeper
    WebFire;765120 wrote:Uh, ya. Along with many other public AND private first year jobs (My first IT job was on a helpdesk. Like $7/hr). Look beyond the first couple years and teachers are paid just fine.

    I lol'd at that comment too.

    Let's not even add in the fact that teachers are only working for 9 months a year(and that doesn't even include all the countless breaks and snow days they get).
  • Al Bundy
    WebFire;765120 wrote:Uh, ya. Along with many other public AND private first year jobs (My first IT job was on a helpdesk. Like $7/hr). Look beyond the first couple years and teachers are paid just fine.

    With most of the pay scales that I have seen it is well beyond a couple of year until teachers are paid fairly. I would like to see our state government concentrate on improving the quality of life for the middle class instead of hurting it.
  • Al Bundy
    sleeper;765125 wrote:I lol'd at that comment too.

    Let's not even add in the fact that teachers are only working for 9 months a year(and that doesn't even include all the countless breaks and snow days they get).

    Most teachers put in much more work than that. However maybe your teachers did put in the bare minimum and that is why it took you a couple of extra years to complete that four year degree. :)
  • WebFire
    sleeper;765125 wrote:I lol'd at that comment too.

    Let's not even add in the fact that teachers are only working for 9 months a year(and that doesn't even include all the countless breaks and snow days they get).

    Plus, I know districts are different in salaries, but my local schools starts teachers at $30k plus. Hardly hugging the poverty level.
  • WebFire
    Al Bundy;765219 wrote:Most teachers put in much more work than that. However maybe your teachers did put in the bare minimum and that is why it took you a couple of extra years to complete that four year degree. :)

    Any good worker, public or private, puts in more than the minimum requirement. This argument means nothing to me. The extra work most teachers do might get them inline with the hours a 40/hr private work puts in.

    Honestly though, most of our teachers get to the school between 7:30-7:50 (school starts at 8), and they are required to stay until 3:30. The parking lot is pretty bare at 3:31. Now, I'm sure they do some grading and lesson planning while sitting in front of the TV, but let's not pretend teachers are putting in 70 hours/wk while making $18k.
  • Glory Days
    WebFire;764972 wrote:Wow. You think this is about attacking teachers?
    No, just unions. Interesting article on how non union public employees wont be effected by SB5. Also how this may not save cities any money like SB5 supporters claim.
    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/retiring_cleveland_schools_wor.html
    WebFire;765120 wrote:Uh, ya. Along with many other public AND private first year jobs (My first IT job was on a helpdesk. Like $7/hr). Look beyond the first couple years and teachers are paid just fine.
    Did this job require a degree to start then a masters degree later?
  • Glory Days
    georgemc80;764671 wrote:Changing the pay structure is something that cannot be done with one piece of legislation over a summer or year. That kind of fundamental change needs no less than a decade to study, formulate, debug and finally implement. Even then, a threshold of implementation would have to be put in place. (Ten years and less experience would have to work under the new system.) Radical change and solid public education are not a mixture for success.
    Stop using common sense. Clearly you are just uneducated.
    CenterBHSFan;764739 wrote:How did teachers, firefighters, etc. manage their employment before public jobs unionized?

    I don't know, but I think it would be interesting to find out.
    I've asked this question before, but nobody seems to want to be "the one" to answer it.
    I don’t know, I wasn’t born :/
  • QuakerOats
    georgemc80;764671 wrote: Radical change and solid public education are not a mixture for success.


    Bizarre. Radical change is exactly what is necessary so as to save ourselves from sending another generation of dumbed-down children out into the most competitive environment we have ever faced. Change cannot occur fast enough.
  • WebFire
    Glory Days;765333 wrote: Did this job require a degree to start then a masters degree later?

    My career path certainly requires a BA. I see where you are trying to go. If you think you can jump right out of college and get the better jobs, you are mistaken. Think of the helpdesk job as my student teaching.
  • Al Bundy
    WebFire;765367 wrote:My career path certainly requires a BA. I see where you are trying to go. If you think you can jump right out of college and get the better jobs, you are mistaken. Think of the helpdesk job as my student teaching.

    except you got paid at the helpdesk and student teachers pay tuition to do it.
  • Writerbuckeye
    Most people in most careers have to work their way up to a decent salary. They don't start out making what I would call comfortable money. It's called paying your dues.

    I worked my first year at a newspaper for less than the City Hall janitor made and had no health insurance, didn't get overtime or comp time, and typically had one or two night meetings to cover, along with putting in close to the typical 40 day work week otherwise. There wasn't much you could do if you wanted to eventually get ahead, you simply had to put in your time at the lower wages.
  • BRF
    Ah, I see that the SB5 proponents are now telling the stories of how rough they had it starting out, along with the old mud slinging against teachers and what they do. I got to read some nice retorts, though.
    I keep thinking about a mother saying to the kid: "Eat your spinach, because it's good for you!"
  • Writerbuckeye
    And when I read stuff like you write, BRF, I keep thinking of the spoiled child who has gotten everything they ever wanted in life without breaking much of a sweat.

    I would assume neither conclusion is based on fact.
  • majorspark
    BRF;765630 wrote:Ah, I see that the SB5 proponents are now telling the stories of how rough they had it starting out, along with the old mud slinging against teachers and what they do. I got to read some nice retorts, though.
    Most people when they have earned their degree do not have full families to support. They have yet to prove their work ethic other than earning their degree. They have yet to gain valuable experience. These people should be paid considerably less than those that have proven themselves and gained valuable experience in their field. It leaves a lot more funds to pay those with the aforementioned qualities. That likely have the whole family to support.
    BRF;765630 wrote:I keep thinking about a mother saying to the kid: "Eat your spinach, because it's good for you!"
    The kid ate the spinach and it was good for him. When he grew up he found out Mom was right.
  • WebFire
    Al Bundy;765373 wrote:except you got paid at the helpdesk and student teachers pay tuition to do it.

    Yes, but I also didn't start out at 30k, with good health and retirement benefits.
  • WebFire
    BRF;765630 wrote:Ah, I see that the SB5 proponents are now telling the stories of how rough they had it starting out, along with the old mud slinging against teachers and what they do. I got to read some nice retorts, though.
    I keep thinking about a mother saying to the kid: "Eat your spinach, because it's good for you!"

    Actually, it was your side that started this conversation about 1st year teachers being paid near poverty. Or did you forget?
  • majorspark
    An employee (public or private ) single and starting out making $30,000 would be nearly 3 times the federal poverty limit. Whoever said they are getting paid near poverty was not thinking very clearly.

    US poverty guidelines

    Family size (1) - $10,830
    Family size (2) - $14,570
    Family size (3) - $18,310
    Family size (4) - $22,050
    Family size (5) - $25,790
    Family size (6) - $29,530
    Family size (7) - $33,270
    Family size (8) - $37,010

    https://www.cms.gov/MedicaidEligibility/downloads/POV10Combo.pdf
  • BRF
    majorspark;765676 wrote:


    The kid ate the spinach and it was good for him. When he grew up he found out Mom was right.
    Ah, ha ha. I was waiting for that response! Actually, I like spinach. But, as many of us know, mother does not always "know what's best"! ;-)

    Now, you constant pounders of SB5 goodness might be interested to know that when I retire next year, I will be shopping around my talents to some area colleges and businesses. Maybe I will do some writing (writerbuckeye, I am actually a published author!).

    Gee, I hope I can handle it! ;-)
  • Al Bundy
    majorspark;765691 wrote:An employee (public or private ) single and starting out making $30,000 would be nearly 3 times the federal poverty limit. Whoever said they are getting paid near poverty was not thinking very clearly.

    US poverty guidelines

    Family size (1) - $10,830
    Family size (2) - $14,570
    Family size (3) - $18,310
    Family size (4) - $22,050
    Family size (5) - $25,790
    Family size (6) - $29,530
    Family size (7) - $33,270
    Family size (8) - $37,010

    https://www.cms.gov/MedicaidEligibility/downloads/POV10Combo.pdf
    I said some starting teachers with a family are near the poverty level. I know this data is 3 years, but even if the starting salary inceased by 3% (highly unlikely with the economy the last 3 years), lower end starting teachers are still near the poverty level if they have a family of four. http://www.ohea.org/beginning-teacher-salaries
  • BRF
    Bear with me, as I'm going to make several posts in a row as I scroll through today's blather:

    First off:
    dwccrew;764910 wrote:Didn't Shannon Jones sponsor the SB5 legislation, not Gov. Kasich?
    Right......right....Einstein. It is even written in the OP!

    Yes, first termer Shannon Jones proposed the legislation. Of course, she did this all on her own. <sarc>
  • dwccrew
    Al Bundy;765703 wrote:I said some starting teachers with a family are near the poverty level. I know this data is 3 years, but even if the starting salary inceased by 3% (highly unlikely with the economy the last 3 years), lower end starting teachers are still near the poverty level if they have a family of four. http://www.ohea.org/beginning-teacher-salaries

    I'd like to know how many teachers starting out have a family of 4. Even if they do, this assumes 1) their spouse isn't working or 2) they don't have a second job (many of my teacher friends have a second job just because they have the spare time i.e. summers and weekends). Your argument is weak because you are making an assumption that a 1st year teacher would have to support a family of 4 by him/herself. I doubt this is often the case.
  • WebFire
    dwccrew;765718 wrote:I'd like to know how many teachers starting out have a family of 4. Even if they do, this assumes 1) their spouse isn't working or 2) they don't have a second job (many of my teacher friends have a second job just because they have the spare time i.e. summers and weekends). Your argument is weak because you are making an assumption that a 1st year teacher would have to support a family of 4 by him/herself. I doubt this is often the case.

    Not to mention it doesn't matter. If a person gets a job right out of college with a family of 4, they'd be in the same situation. So it has absolutely nothing with being a teacher.
  • BRF
    I am so sorry that I have listened to union "blather" for 35 years. Wish me luck. Maybe I will call upon you successful posters in the private sector for some tips! hahahaha!
  • BRF
    WebFire;765681 wrote:Actually, it was your side that started this conversation about 1st year teachers being paid near poverty. Or did you forget?
    I see that the "sides" are now being defined. That is good.

    Who cares about who started what.

    Ya know, posting those poverty rating scales and trying to make it look like a first year teacher is WAY above the poverty level..........nice try.
  • Glory Days
    majorspark;765676 wrote:Most people when they have earned their degree do not have full families to support. They have yet to prove their work ethic other than earning their degree. They have yet to gain valuable experience. These people should be paid considerably less than those that have proven themselves and gained valuable experience in their field. It leaves a lot more funds to pay those with the aforementioned qualities. That likely have the whole family to support.

    So now you dont like that people with college degrees get paid more than people without them but with more experience? sounds like we are back at "getting even" again. so just because you have a family you should be paid more? maybe those people shouldnt have started a family if they cant support one? maybe the people without degrees and with families should have negotiated better pay if they deserve it ;) i thought you non union people were smarter than that :)