Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• WebFire

  FatHobbit;764108 wrote:Student progress is how Kasich wants to measure teacher performance.
  
  http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/05/10/kasich-outlines-his-view-on-how-to-judge-teachers.html?sid=101
  
  I think some teachers are going to be at a huge disadvantage if that is how they do it.

  
  Why so?
• FatHobbit

  

  WebFire;764168 wrote:Why so?

  
  I would say not all kids are equal and they definitely do not have the same parent involvement. The communities that value education will have students that are much more motivated. The teachers in communities that do not value education are going to have a hard time getting a good performance evaluation if that is how they will be measured.
• WebFire

  FatHobbit;764176 wrote:I would say not all kids are equal and they definitely do not have the same parent involvement. The communities that value education will have students that are much more motivated. The teachers in communities that do not value education are going to have a hard time getting a good performance evaluation if that is how they will be measured.

  
  Seems like that was thought of.
  

  He also said lower-level students should not be measured against higher-level students when judging a teacher's performance.

• FatHobbit

  

  WebFire;764186 wrote:Seems like that was thought of.

  
  Thought of, but I'm not sure how it was solved. (Maybe it was, but I would be as uncertain as some of the teachers here until they get to see how it works.)
• WebFire

  FatHobbit;764193 wrote:Thought of, but I'm not sure how it was solved. (Maybe it was, but I would be as uncertain as some of the teachers here until they get to see how it works.)

  
  I don't think it has yet. Aren't they still hammering out the details?
• Glory Days

  

  Writerbuckeye;763972 wrote:You mean they intend for them to be a democracy EXCEPT when it comes to voting on important things like whether the union should be able to just take another $54 dollars from your paycheck to fund a political campaign. Then we only let our most trusted union lackeys vote, and tell the others to go screw themselves.

  
  I didnt follow Kasich's or the representatives' campaigns who voted for it, but did they mention SB5 when they were running?
• Al Bundy

  WebFire;764164 wrote:Well I assume if they are performing poorly they are also not progressing?

  
  A student could make a lot of progress with a teacher but still perform poorly if he was at a very low level before the teacher got him
• BRF

  

  Glory Days;764305 wrote:I didnt follow Kasich's or the representatives' campaigns who voted for it, but did they mention SB5 when they were running?

  I remember our union reps telling us that if Kasich was to be elected, very bad things would happen......in the form of cuts to education.
  
  Nowhere did I dream that it would go to SB5. I, as a staunch Republican, went along with my party and THEN he gets his "boys and girls" in line to push it through (kinda like how I'm accused of listening to my union "thug" leaders!).
  
  I salute those 5 or 6 Republicans who voted against SB5. They must have taken a lot of shit for it, too. But, I am betting, that in their next election, the stance they took will help them and not hurt them.
  
  Where I live, my state rep. is Amstutz, who is a sheep that will follow whatever the party says as long as he gets to keep his job. My state sen. is Obruf.....don't know much about him at all, but he will never get another vote from me, my family, and all the people that I know.
  
  And Al Bundy makes an excellent point, imo, on his last post. This merit pay bull crap will not work. And there is no plan. It's fly by the seat of your pants. But, the point is moot, because this measure will be defeated in November.
  
  Finally, I would like to thank Glory Days and Al Bundy for posting on here.
• Belly35

  

  BRF;764349 wrote:I remember our union reps telling us that if Kasich was to be elected, very bad things would happen......in the form of cuts to education.
  
  Nowhere did I dream that it would go to SB5. I, as a staunch Republican, went along with my party and THEN he gets his "boys and girls" in line to push it through (kinda like how I'm accused of listening to my union "thug" leaders!).
  
  I salute those 5 or 6 Republicans who voted against SB5. They must have taken a lot of shit for it, too. But, I am betting, that in their next election, the stance they took will help them and not hurt them.
  
  Where I live, my state rep. is Amstutz, who is a sheep that will follow whatever the party says as long as he gets to keep his job. My state sen. is Obruf.....don't know much about him at all, but he will never get another vote from me, my family, and all the people that I know.
  
  And Al Bundy makes an excellent point, imo, on his last post. This merit pay bull crap will not work. And there is no plan. It's fly by the seat of your pants. But, the point is moot, because this measure will be defeated in November.
  
  Finally, I would like to thank Glory Days and Al Bundy for posting on here.

  WTF I support the Electrical Union on the OBAMA PLACE
• BRF

  

  Belly35;764390 wrote:WTF I support the Electrical Union on the OBAMA PLACE

  
  Ohhhhhhhh...Belly! Yes you do! Classic thread!
• WebFire

  Al Bundy;764335 wrote:A student could make a lot of progress with a teacher but still perform poorly if he was at a very low level before the teacher got him

  
  That doesn't make sense. A student has to perform RELATIVELY well to make progress.
  

  He also said lower-level students should not be measured against higher-level students when judging a teacher's performance.

• BRF

  

  WebFire;764605 wrote:That doesn't make sense. A student has to perform RELATIVELY well to make progress.

  
  And how do you measure that RELATIVELY for the merit pay? ... The merit pay ranking that there is no current plan in place for?....and never wiil be.
• WebFire

  BRF;764628 wrote:And how do you measure that RELATIVELY for the merit pay? ... The merit pay ranking that there is no current plan in place for?....and never wiil be.

  
  SMH
• Writerbuckeye

  

  You'd think a bunch of educators -- people who have spent their entire careers evaluating and teaching students -- could come up with an equitable way of judging performance.
  
  Should I take the fact that some of you say it can't be done as a sign of how poor our overall education system has become? Because I really don't want to go there.
  
  Either you folks aren't as competent as you've led us to believe, or you're so damn scared of anything new and different, it has you in brain lockdown. If it's the former, then I guess whatever system we come up with really won't matter, because a lot of you will be flushed out. If it's the latter, then I feel kind of sorry for you living life so structured you don't know how to take a chance.
• georgemc80

  Changing the pay structure is something that cannot be done with one piece of legislation over a summer or year. That kind of fundamental change needs no less than a decade to study, formulate, debug and finally implement. Even then, a threshold of implementation would have to be put in place. (Ten years and less experience would have to work under the new system.) Radical change and solid public education are not a mixture for success.
• Al Bundy

  WebFire;764605 wrote:That doesn't make sense. A student has to perform RELATIVELY well to make progress.

  
  Say we have student A and student B, and we give them each a pre-test at the beginning of the year and a post-test at the end of the year. On the pre-test, student A scores an 80 and student B scores a 50. On the post-test, student A scores an 85 and student B scores a 75. Student A has higher performance, but student B made more progress.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  How did teachers, firefighters, etc. manage their employment before public jobs unionized?
  
  I don't know, but I think it would be interesting to find out.
  I've asked this question before, but nobody seems to want to be "the one" to answer it.
• WebFire

  Al Bundy;764703 wrote:Say we have student A and student B, and we give them each a pre-test at the beginning of the year and a post-test at the end of the year. On the pre-test, student A scores an 80 and student B scores a 50. On the post-test, student A scores an 85 and student B scores a 75. Student A has higher performance, but student B made more progress.

  
  Correct. And student B performed RELATIVELY well.
  
  Again...
  

  He also said lower-level students should not be measured against higher-level students when judging a teacher's performance.

• Belly35

  

  WWSCD (What Would Senior Citizen Do)
  
  Here we are a debate between Union Members and there perks and the Private Sector of Business and Citizens for lack of a better word “equality”.
  
  One side stating I want you to have what I don’t have and the other side want to keep what they have because it better. On side tell the other it’s better at my expenses not yours.
  
  I haven’t hear anything about
  What best for the Kids,
  What best for the Community,
  What best for the school system,
  What best for the future of public education,
  What best for the next generation….. It seems to be all about NOW and me
  
  NOW is what got us into this situation. When thing are good no one thought about later. Get what we can get and get it NOW. Take it NOW and let not worry about later … just about me.
  
  Time has run out and that NOW has caught up to reality and facts
  
  From Union member to Private Sector to Citizens … it all about me , me , me .
  
  Some of you may want to think about your senior years … Is that Retired Senior Teacher able and or wanting to pay now for what their Union created ….. ?
  
  “What it now but will not be able to afford it later”
• Al Bundy

  Belly35;764868 wrote:WWSCD (What Would Senior Citizen Do)
  
  Here we are a debate between Union Members and there perks and the Private Sector of Business and Citizens for lack of a better word “equality”.
  
  One side stating I want you to have what I don’t have and the other side want to keep what they have because it better. On side tell the other it’s better at my expenses not yours.
  
  I haven’t hear anything about
  What best for the Kids,
  What best for the Community,
  What best for the school system,
  What best for the future of public education,
  What best for the next generation….. It seems to be all about NOW and me
  
  NOW is what got us into this situation. When thing are good no one thought about later. Get what we can get and get it NOW. Take it NOW and let not worry about later … just about me.
  
  Time has run out and that NOW has caught up to reality and facts
  
  From Union member to Private Sector to Citizens … it all about me , me , me .
  
  Some of you may want to think about your senior years … Is that Retired Senior Teacher able and or wanting to pay now for what their Union created ….. ?
  
  “What it now but will not be able to afford it later”

  I am a member of what would be your Private Sector of Business side, but I am opposed to SB5. For one thing, I don't believe any of the Republicans revealed their plans in regards to this during the campaign. Secondly, I find it wrong that the governor wants to make attacks on teachers earning $30,000 but doesn't want to cut salary of those making in the 6 figure neigborhood in his cabinet. He also doesn't want to give up perks such as his helicopter. If we are huring this bad, shouldn't he also be willing to make sacrifices too?
  
  I feel that there needs to be reform to the benefits. I would like to see a defined contribution to retirement instead of a defined benefit. I think the healthcare needs fixed at a higher level then going after teachers making $30,000. It is insane that most of the countries that we give aid to have national health care, but we can not help out our own citizens with medical costs.
  
  SB5 isn't about reducing costs, it is about taking away the ability to bargian collectively. If the board doesn't feel that a contract is right, don't agree to it.
• dwccrew

  

  BRF;764349 wrote:I remember our union reps telling us that if Kasich was to be elected, very bad things would happen......in the form of cuts to education.
  
  Nowhere did I dream that it would go to SB5. I, as a staunch Republican, went along with my party and THEN he gets his "boys and girls" in line to push it through (kinda like how I'm accused of listening to my union "thug" leaders!).
  

  Didn't Shannon Jones sponsor the SB5 legislation, not Gov. Kasich?
• WebFire

  Al Bundy;764889 wrote:Secondly, I find it wrong that the governor wants to make attacks on teachers earning $30,000 but doesn't want to cut salary of those making in the 6 figure neigborhood in his cabinet. He also doesn't want to give up perks such as his helicopter. If we are huring this bad, shouldn't he also be willing to make sacrifices too?

  Wow. You think this is about attacking teachers?
• Belly35

  

  Al Bundy;764889 wrote:I am a member of what would be your Private Sector of Business side, but I am opposed to SB5. For one thing, I don't believe any of the Republicans revealed their plans in regards to this during the campaign. Secondly, I find it wrong that the governor wants to make attacks on teachers earning $30,000 but doesn't want to cut salary of those making in the 6 figure neigborhood in his cabinet. He also doesn't want to give up perks such as his helicopter. If we are huring this bad, shouldn't he also be willing to make sacrifices too?
  
  I feel that there needs to be reform to the benefits. I would like to see a defined contribution to retirement instead of a defined benefit. I think the healthcare needs fixed at a higher level then going after teachers making $30,000. It is insane that most of the countries that we give aid to have national health care, but we can not help out our own citizens with medical costs.
  
  SB5 isn't about reducing costs, it is about taking away the ability to bargian collectively. If the board doesn't feel that a contract is right, don't agree to it.

  Are you a Democrat/Liberal Business owner ... Wow hard to find those anymore ....
  Many I suggest to you not to apply to the Black Chamber of Commerce… anytime soon
  
  Community Organizer never stated his plan and the cost of keep his wife staff and the czar could feed a small country. Lets fix healthcare, social program, medicad/medicare and welfare …. via stopping the fraud, abuse and corruption first and the look at reform. Why reform something that is operated, wasteful and fraudulent correct those issues first before throwing money at something that will continue to be wasteful…
  
  If those counties that we send aid to have such a great health care system why are we sending them aid… they don’t have a system in place to handle anything… Look around you … those counties that for year’s Socialist system of government and social program are moving away from the burden of such ideology
• Al Bundy

  Belly35;764996 wrote:Are you a Democrat/Liberal Business owner ... Wow hard to find those anymore ....
  Many I suggest to you not to apply to the Black Chamber of Commerce… anytime soon
  
  Community Organizer never stated his plan and the cost of keep his wife staff and the czar could feed a small country. Lets fix healthcare, social program, medicad/medicare and welfare …. via stopping the fraud, abuse and corruption first and the look at reform. Why reform something that is operated, wasteful and fraudulent correct those issues first before throwing money at something that will continue to be wasteful…
  
  If those counties that we send aid to have such a great health care system why are we sending them aid… they don’t have a system in place to handle anything… Look around you … those counties that for year’s Socialist system of government and social program are moving away from the burden of such ideology

  Belly, I wouldn't consider myself liberal, my voting pattern is more independent than anything else. I agree that we should clean up fraud and that too much money is wasted on the first lady's staff.
  
  I also agree in paying people fairly for the jobs that they do. Many first year teachers who have families are flirting with the poverty level. I know my education has given me an opportunity to do many things in my life, and I don't take that for granted. I would like to see our state government doing more to help the middle class instead of hurting families who are just getting by in many cases.
• WebFire

  Al Bundy;765061 wrote: Many first year teachers who have families are flirting with the poverty level..

  Uh, ya. Along with many other public AND private first year jobs (My first IT job was on a helpdesk. Like $7/hr). Look beyond the first couple years and teachers are paid just fine.