Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

• Heretic

  

  CenterBHSFan;454295 wrote:I've mentioned this before in a roundabout way, but I'll say it again, just for clarification purposes
  
  It's amazing how prickly people become when anything can be construed to be offensive to Muslims or the religion of Islam in general; they are quick to be "all over it", defensively trying to point out how very wrong it is to cast aspersions.
  
  But by the same token, it's pretty much blase and trendy to disparage Christianity in general and those ^^ same people will say nothing in defense of the religion or the people who follow it.
  
  It's like people are bending themselves over backwards and inside out to put on a show of how PC they are.
  WTF???
  
  Again, I don't give a damn, really, about the proposed mosque. It's very close to ground zero, but not actually considered part of it. Yes, I wonder about what's behind of it all, and perhaps we'll find out those things like who's financing it.

  
  Don't have to worry about that from me: I tend to mock all religions because my beliefs don't roll like that! Christian, Islamic, whatever -- all the same to me. I'd rather go Norse...at least Thor got things done!
• I Wear Pants

  So did this get blocked by the zoning board or something? Because if it's a zoning issue and it was approve by the powers that be in that regard what is the problem?
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Heretic;454778 wrote:Don't have to worry about that from me: I tend to mock all religions because my beliefs don't roll like that! Christian, Islamic, whatever -- all the same to me. I'd rather go Norse...at least Thor got things done!

  
  You just want to weild a big hammer! lol
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  Interesting article that I read on the train this morning in AM New York ... I could only find a pdf of the article (see link below):
  
  "Why do they hate us,
  mommy?”
  This was the question
  Tamir Judeh, 11, asked his
  mother about opposition to
  the mosque planned near
  Ground Zero.
  The anti-Muslim rhetoric
  “is horrifying,” said Linda
  Sarsour of the Arab American
  Association of New York,
  who said she was left speechless
  by her son’s question.
  The mosque debate, many
  Muslims say, has allowed free
  rein to impugn Muslims.
  “There’s a double standard”
  that lumps Muslims
  with terrorists, said Sarab
  Al-Jijakli of the Network of
  Arab-American Professionals
  of New York, saying no
  one judged Christians based
  on Oklahoma City bomber
  Timothy McVeigh."
  
  see page 3: http://longisland.newsday.com/gallery/galleries/amny/pdf/20100818.pdf
• fish82

  

  BigAppleBuckeye;454910 wrote:Interesting article that I read on the train this morning in AM New York ... I could only find a pdf of the article (see link below):
  
  "Why do they hate us,
  mommy?”
  This was the question
  Tamir Judeh, 11, asked his
  mother about opposition to
  the mosque planned near
  Ground Zero.
  The anti-Muslim rhetoric
  “is horrifying,” said Linda
  Sarsour of the Arab American
  Association of New York,
  who said she was left speechless
  by her son’s question.
  The mosque debate, many
  Muslims say, has allowed free
  rein to impugn Muslims.
  “There’s a double standard”
  that lumps Muslims
  with terrorists, said Sarab
  Al-Jijakli of the Network of
  Arab-American Professionals
  of New York, saying no
  one judged Christians based
  on Oklahoma City bomber
  Timothy McVeigh."
  
  see page 3: http://longisland.newsday.com/gallery/galleries/amny/pdf/20100818.pdf

  Probably because McVeigh was an Agnostic.
• jmog

  Not only that ^^^^^, but if one doesn't believe people don't judge Christians when idiot Christians bomb abortion clinics, then he/she is a moron.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  jmog;454928 wrote:Not only that ^^^^^, but if one doesn't believe people don't judge Christians when idiot Christians bomb abortion clinics, then he/she is a moron.

  
  Fair point ... but does one say "Because Christians bombed abortion clinics, you can't build a church?"
• isadore

  ///
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Did McVeigh bomb the OCB in the name of God? I can't remember...
• Manhattan Buckeye

  BigAppleBuckeye;454932 wrote:Fair point ... but does one say "Because Christians bombed abortion clinics, you can't build a church?"

  
  Can't has nothing to do with it - it is should. But to your point, if a nutso anti-abortion guy bombed an abortion clinic and killed many doctors, employees and citizens, how well would an idea to build a National Right to Life Center near the place of incident go over? My guess - not well. I lived in NYC for nearly a decade, I've been to that area of Manhattan often, it isn't that well populated, particularly by Muslims (that tend to live in Jersey or Queens). I'd question the sanity of any religion that wants to build any type of facility there, let alone one of this magnitude. One has to be an ignoramus to NOT question the motives.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;454965 wrote:Can't has nothing to do with it - it is should. But to your point, if a nutso anti-abortion guy bombed an abortion clinic and killed many doctors, employees and citizens, how well would an idea to build a National Right to Life Center near the place of incident go over? My guess - not well. I lived in NYC for nearly a decade, I've been to that area of Manhattan often, it isn't that well populated, particularly by Muslims (that tend to live in Jersey or Queens). I'd question the sanity of any religion that wants to build any type of facility there, let alone one of this magnitude. One has to be an ignoramus to NOT question the motives.

  
  I already commented earlier that I, too, question these motives. However, I can question them all I want, the fact is that it's no one's place to disallow this project. Like I said, it is a sensitive subject, and it pains me to think of all we lost on 9-11. But I think we will lose THAT MUCH MORE by going against what makes American so great and not allowing this to happen.
• wkfan

  Do they have the 'right' to build a Mosque (or whatever) there..........Yes.
  
  They have their 1st Amendment 'right' to free speech as well as their 'right' to practice their religion anywhere and any tim they choose.
  
  However......is it the right thing to do??? No
• fish82

  

  Her Majesty is gonna get to the bottom of this mosque opposition crap!
  
  http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2010/aug/17/audio-rep-pelosi-calls-investigation-wtc-mosque-op/
  
  I'm gonna miss her.
• Heretic

  

  Center
  Hmmm...you raise a good point. And when you add in the ability to say things like, "By Odin's beard!" while using the hammer, I can't comprehend why anyone would NOT want to accept Thor as their deity.
• jhay78

  

  BigAppleBuckeye;454910 wrote:Interesting article that I read on the train this morning in AM New York ... I could only find a pdf of the article (see link below):
  
  "Why do they hate us,
  mommy?”
  This was the question
  Tamir Judeh, 11, asked his
  mother about opposition to
  the mosque planned near
  Ground Zero.
  The anti-Muslim rhetoric
  “is horrifying,” said Linda
  Sarsour of the Arab American
  Association of New York,
  who said she was left speechless
  by her son’s question.
  The mosque debate, many
  Muslims say, has allowed free
  rein to impugn Muslims.
  “There’s a double standard”
  that lumps Muslims
  with terrorists, said Sarab
  Al-Jijakli of the Network of
  Arab-American Professionals
  of New York, saying no
  one judged Christians based
  on Oklahoma City bomber
  Timothy McVeigh."
  
  see page 3: http://longisland.newsday.com/gallery/galleries/amny/pdf/20100818.pdf

  Perhaps mommy can explain to her son that there are over 100 mosques in New York City, all of which allow Muslims to worship freely in a great country, called the United States of America. Perhaps mommy can remind her son that the proposed site is near Ground Zero, and in fact should be considered part of it, as the building was damaged receiving a large portion of the plane's landing gear, and thus holds great emotional value to Americans and should be the location for a historical monument.
  
  Perhaps mommy can explain to her son that Christians cannot even carry a Bible, let alone worship freely or build a church, in Saudi Arabia or other predominately Muslim countries. Perhaps mommy can explain what trampling upon American sensitivites means, and that this is not a religious freedom issue.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  jhay78;455054 wrote:Perhaps mommy can explain to her son that Christians cannot even carry a Bible, let alone worship freely or build a church, in Saudi Arabia or other predominately Muslim countries.

  
  Ahhh, the classic "Two Wrongs Make a Right" stance. They also don't eat pork there: should be start banning barbecue joints?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  That's actually buying into intolerance, not a refutation of jhay's point.
  
  If you were arguing that all of us should eat pork out of spite, the argument would be apt - not that I agree with it. I love me some nice Buzz and Ned's! HMMMMMMMM!
• LJ

  

  Heretic;455050 wrote:Center
  Hmmm...you raise a good point. And when you add in the ability to say things like, "By Odin's beard!" while using the hammer, I can't comprehend why anyone would NOT want to accept Thor as their deity.

  
  Didn't the little girl in adventures in babysitting accept Thor as her supreme being? Lol
  
  Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G
• BoatShoes

  Even if we accept that it's the wrong thing to do to build a Mosque there, that it's certainly in bad taste and offends many, many Americans. What should be done about that? Should the Mosque be stopped from going up? By Whom?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  LJ;455078 wrote:Didn't the little girl in adventures in babysitting accept Thor as her supreme being? Lol
  
  Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G

  
  Yeah, and it was Vincent D'onofrio, the dude from Law and Order: Criminal Intent, Full Metal Jacket and Men In Black, among other films.
• wkfan

  BoatShoes;455082 wrote:Even if we accept that it's the wrong thing to do to build a Mosque there, that it's certainly in bad taste and offends many, many Americans. What should be done about that? Should the Mosque be stopped from going up? By Whom?

  Yes, it shoud be stopped........by the sensitivities of the organization who is proposing building it.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;455067 wrote:That's actually buying into intolerance, not a refutation of jhay's point.
  
  If you were arguing that all of us should eat pork out of spite, the argument would be apt - not that I agree with it. I love me some nice Buzz and Ned's! HMMMMMMMM!

  
  Agreed, pork rules! (sorry Websurfinbird, I know it's not kosher, but man is it tasty ....)
• BoatShoes

  wkfan;455093 wrote:Yes, it shoud be stopped........by the sensitivities of the organization who is proposing building it.

  
  Suppose they're just insensitive to something they don't consider themselves involved in....suppose they say, "No, we want to build it anyways, we just want to worship Allah at this piece of property we have. We don't feel like a few evil terrorists had anything to do with us."
  
  What if they just don't care about us being sensitive? Should it be stopped against their will?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  BigAppleBuckeye;455109 wrote:Agreed, pork rules! (sorry Websurfinbird, I know it's not kosher, but man is it tasty ....)

  
  You got to set her straight man, one of my favorite memories working in the city was during a summer outing - the more senior associate next to my office was (obviously, non-observant) Jewish, people in the group were enjoying the pre-meal tastings at the Boathouse. We had some very tasty bacon-wrapped scallops - guy (after more than a few drinks) drew attention to himself saying, "This is what you call a bad Jew" in front of everyone and ate the scallop. It was funny, but not that controversial, I can count the number of people that kept Kosher I knew on one hand.
• Belly35

  

  Religion of Islam …..is not a religion, not mention in the Qur’an as a religion no where to be found ……Liars
  Deen is mention but taken as a comprehensive system of life and not a religion
  
  Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 19), what can be translated as, "The deen before Allah (accepted by Allah) is Islam". He also says in surat Al-Mae’dah, (Verse 3), what can be translated as, "Today, I have completed your deen, and have completed my bliss upon you and accepted for you Islam as a deen." He also says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 85), what can be translated as, "Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers."
  The word deen and the word Islam were mentioned in these verses and in many others in the Qur’an. These two words are two of the most important words in the life of the Muslims, because the guidance, success in this life and in the Hereafter depends on two things: Understanding the meaning of these two words (deen and Islam), and applying this meaning in life.
  Our understanding for these two words got weak because of our weakness in the Arabic language with which Qur’an was revealed. As a result, we repeat these two words (deen and Islam) with the tongues without understanding them except for a few people who could understand them as they should be understood. So, it is impossible to apply their meanings in our lives, despite our insistence on belonging to the deen and specifically to Islam.
  What is the meaning of the word deen and the word Islam?
  To answer this question, it is a must that we refer to the Arabic language dictionaries which still keep the meaning of how the Arabs used to understand the word deen and the word Islam when Qur’an was being revealed. In that period of time, there was no problem with understanding these two words by the Arabs from whom the companions of the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) came. That generation that transformed the understanding for these two words into reality in their individual and collective lives. As a result, this understanding led them to the guidance, the guidance of Islam. This change was the greatest change in the long history of mankind.
  The concept of deen: The word deen is used in the Arabic language to give different meanings, most importantly are:
  1. Subjugation, Authority, Ruling and Having Charge
  A. He subjugated people to obey. Subjugated here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen.
  B. He has authority over him. Has authority here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen. In this context, the saying of the prophet (S.A.W.) reveals this meaning, "The intelligent person is the one who has authority over himself and works for the Hereafter" This means that the intelligent person is the one who has subjugated himself and made himself obedient to Allah. In this context, also, the past participle would be subjugated, ruled and submitted. For example, Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Waqe’ah, (Verse 86 & 87), what can be translated as, "If you are not subjugated, then return it if you are truthful". This means, if you are not forced by the will of Allah in the issues of death and life, then return the soul to the body after it has left it due to death.
  2. Obedience and Submission due to Subjugation:
  3. The Method and the Habit:
  4. Punishment, Reward and Judgment: The Arabs had a saying, which implies the following: you are treated the same way you treat others.
  These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word deen in the Qur’an where it implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts:
  1. The rulership and the authority belong to Allah (S.W.T.).
  2. The obedience and submission to this rulership and authority by those who embraced this deen.
  3. The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) established by this authority (Allah).
  4. The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those that followed the system and submitted to it and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.
  Based on this definition of deen, we can summarize that deen is a submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.
  After understanding this definition of the Arabic word deen, we realize that it is wrong to translate it to the English with the word "religion". Furthermore we do not need anyone to come up with a definition for the word deen
  
  
  Wake the Fuck-up Liberal and America or this is what your faith will be………Under the No Religion of Islam…
  
  When a Muslim declares that Islam is a religion of peace, he/she is either ignorant of the Koran (Qur'an), or is deceitfully thinking of this "peace", as it extends only to those within the Muslim Community. The deceit is that they will not tell you exactly what they mean. According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture
  them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His
  messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "openended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.
  
  Surah 47:4 says:
  
  Fa'idha Laqitumu Al-Ladhina Kafaru Fadarba Ar-Riqabi Hattaá 'Idha 'Athkhantumuhum Fashuddu Al-Wathaqa Fa'imma Mannaan Ba`du Wa 'Imma Fida'an Hattaá Tada`a Al-Harbu 'Awzaraha Dhalika WaLaw Yasha'u Allahu Lantasara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`dakum Biba`din Wa Al-Ladhina Qutilu
  Fi Sabili Allahi Falan Yudilla 'A`malahum
  
  which means
  
  Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you
  fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. Many Quran translators have tried to soften the meaning in their translation by adding the words “in war” in brackets after the word “Unbelievers” but they are NOT there in the original Arabic text.
  
  Religion of Pease … both a lie