Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

• BoatShoes

  Belly35;453969 wrote:Please lets put in the same/same arena:
  Three planes load with Muslins, hijacked by racial Christians (can’t think of anyone Christian group that has an interest in 40 virgins, except for 13 year old boys in a youth group) crashes into said building of same/same. Would that Country, Muslims and Islam permit the building of a First Christ of Christ, Non-Denomination Church or Zion Lutheran to be built anywhere? Or would all those Christian Missionary workers within the country be stone to death….

  
  So are you suggesting we should act like the people in this other country who haven't been liberalized enough to appreciate the virtues of religious freedom and liberty and general and stone non-violent muslim missionaries and not allow them to build their churches here?
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  Belly35;453969 wrote:Please lets put in the same/same arena:
  Three planes load with Muslins, hijacked by racial Christians (can’t think of anyone Christian group that has an interest in 40 virgins, except for 13 year old boys in a youth group) crashes into said building of same/same. Would that Country, Muslims and Islam permit the building of a First Christ of Christ, Non-Denomination Church or Zion Lutheran to be built anywhere? Or would all those Christian Missionary workers within the country be stone to death….

  
  Belly, does this country you speak of claim to offer freedom of religion? And wouldn't you say that NOT allowing a church to be built in this said country because of the actions of a handful of religious fanatics would go against everything the country stood for to begin with?
• Belly35

  

  When (some people) spews out the words religions freedom, political correctness to avoid the simplest of what is right …Common Sense
  I am not advocating that we lower our value, morals and freedom to the standard of other countries. I’m advocating that we raise our Standard to an even higher level of Common Sense and the writing of our founding fathers and the Constitution of the United States.
  Islam is not just a religion. It is an entire political, cultural and monetary system designed around “their” so called religion. Islam and its various advocacy groups are trying to garner sympathy and support from Americans who do not fully understand this agenda that hates Christians and has no tolerances for any other religion. Many of you simply dismiss issues surrounding Islam thinking that Muslims are simply exercising freedom of “their” the key word “their” religious rights under the 1st Amendment. This is not true. Islam is abusing and perverting the rights afforded to religions under the 1st Amendment. Should a Culture (not a religion) that hate Christianity be give the freedom under the United State Constitution?
• jhay78

  

  ptown_trojans_1;453908 wrote:This pretty much sums up my view in a sense. It is so stupid, pointless and counterproductive to our strategy.
  http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/08/16/you_know_what_let_the_terrorists_win

  
  I really don't see this as a foreign policy issue, although it will possibly have some (minimal) ramifications.
  
  From the article:
  

  The truth is that Al Qaeda has been seriously weakened, and that the effect of this kind of debate on the attitude of possible AQ sympathizers is marginal.

  If that's true, then why should we care what other nations think about our business?
  
  As to Imam Rauf, when Saudi Arabia allows me to carry a Bible openly, or worship openly at a visible Christian church, or when other Middle Eastern nations allow women to have basic human rights that we champion here in the US, or when Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan/etc./etc. eliminates their systematized persecution of Christians, THEN I will lend some credibility to what this guy says. Until then, I will pay no attention to him lecturing me and America and talking about "building bridges" and "promoting religious tolerance and understanding".
  
  When someone else on this forum acknowledges that of all major religions on the planet Earth today, Islam is the most intolerant of all, then we can engage in somewhat reasonable debate. I think most have gotten past the "they have the right to build the mosque" argument- of course they do. But why and where's the money coming from?
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  Belly35;454059 wrote:When (some people) spews out the words religions freedom, political correctness to avoid the simplest of what is right …Common Sense
  I am not advocating that we lower our value, morals and freedom to the standard of other countries. I’m advocating that we raise our Standard to an even higher level of Common Sense and the writing of our founding fathers and the Constitution of the United States.
  Islam is not just a religion. It is an entire political, cultural and monetary system designed around “their” so called religion. Islam and its various advocacy groups are trying to garner sympathy and support from Americans who do not fully understand this agenda that hates Christians and has no tolerances for any other religion. Many of you simply dismiss issues surrounding Islam thinking that Muslims are simply exercising freedom of “their” the key word “their” religious rights under the 1st Amendment. This is not true. Islam is abusing and perverting the rights afforded to religions under the 1st Amendment. Should a Culture (not a religion) that hate Christianity be give the freedom under the United State Constitution?

  
  Now, it comes out. As someone who has studied in the Middle East, spoke Arabic and read both the English and Arabic version of the Qur'an, I completely disagree with your notion of Islam.
  
  I'd also throw the common sense argument right back at you with the words of George Washington, wrote on this day in 1790 about the Jews in America:

  It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

  http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm006.html
• CenterBHSFan

  

  BAB, I might have missed it, but... what's your viewpoints?
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  CenterBHSFan;454098 wrote:BAB, I might have missed it, but... what's your viewpoints?

  
  haha, I assume your question was tongue-in-cheek?
  
  PS, I am enjoying this debate. There is obviously no black and white answer, and even in some of these points that in principal I disagree with, I do find nuggets of info that make me say "hmm, haven't thought of that."
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  BigAppleBuckeye;453308 wrote:For the record, I am totally ok with a mosque being built downtown. Many Muslims died that day as well, and the day we prevent religious freedom is the day NONE of us are Americans any longer.

  
  PS Center, just in case, this is my stance, in a quick summary
• HitsRus

  

  They will say that it is "not what really happened so it's moot" because they don't see the value in hypotheticals to determine what their true positions are. If had to guess, I doubt you'd see many people protesting that Trinity Church should be ripped down...they just think Islam is fundamentally different than Christianity and cannot get past the invalid inference from terrorists to Islam.

  The hypothetical is completely invalid because we are not at war with radical catholics who ruthlessly attacked us destroying lives and billions of dollars of property. If we were, and there was the remotest of chances that a building could be used to provide cover to other radicals who might contemplate a silmilar attack, then my answer would be the same. No, No, No...on a number of levels....and I'm a practicing Catholic too.
  
  
  Just like me...some peace loving muslims have expressed their concern( several links posted on this thread)...and just like the community organizer, others on this thread have chosen to ignore those warnings.
  
  The problem really is the hubris of those who ignore the warnings of non radical Islam itself. So confident are they in the 'superiority' of their reasoning they cannot concieve of the idea that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily hold the same values, and hence leave themselves vulnerable. American principle of 'religious freedom' are wonderful and hold much value...TO AMERICANS. Adhering to American ideals is great, but we are at war here with a deceitful and ruthless enemy. It's great to hold to values and ideals, but it is not so great to be stupid and allow even the remotest of possibilty that those ideals be used against us.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  HitsRus;454137 wrote:The hypothetical is completely invalid because we are not at war with radical catholics who ruthlessly attacked us destroying lives and billions of dollars of property. If we were, and there was the remotest of chances that a building could be used to provide cover to other radicals who might contemplate a silmilar attack, then my answer would be the same. No, No, No...on a number of levels....and I'm a practicing Catholic too.
  
  
  Just like me...some peace loving muslims have expressed their concern( several links posted on this thread)...and just like the community organizer, others on this thread have chosen to ignore those warnings.
  
  The problem really is the hubris of those who ignore the warnings of non radical Islam itself. So confident are they in the 'superiority' of their reasoning they cannot concieve of the idea that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily hold the same values, and hence leave themselves vulnerable. American principle of 'religious freedom' are wonderful and hold much value...TO AMERICANS. Adhering to American ideals is great, but we are at war here with a deceitful and ruthless enemy. It's great to hold to values and ideals, but it is not so great to be stupid and allow even the remotest of possibilty that those ideals be used against us.

  
  Pretty good post overall, but I disagree with that last part: are you saying that you are not American if you live in the country and want to be a practicing, observant Muslim? My apologies if I am misunderstanding, but I am getting a sense from several threads here that people believe if you are not a Christian, you are not an American. Am I off base? (and I apologize if I am misreading this)
• I Wear Pants

  There have been several posts insinuating that somehow Muslims cannot be Americans. Which is disheartening. Hopefully I was merely interpreting things wrong or they didn't mean to word it that way.
• gibby08

  

  This is being built 3 blocks away. It's not like they are trying to build it ON Ground Zero(which no one would support)
  
  And for Belly to suggest that Islam is not a real religion is just simply ignorant
• jhay78

  

  How about a litmus test, which will solve the debate once and for all? One word is all that is needed.
  
  "Mr. Imam Rauf, is Hamas a terrorist organization?"
  
  "Yes"
  
  "Ding ding ding! You may proceed unharassed in building your mosque/cultural center."
  
  Of course, Imam Rauf will never admit such (because to do so would be to speak the truth and offend Hamas, among others). Until he acknowledges Hamas as a blatant terrorist organization (identified as such by our State Dept.), then I don't trust what he has to say. I think there are ulterior motives and Americans deserve to know them and where the funding is coming from.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I've mentioned this before in a roundabout way, but I'll say it again, just for clarification purposes
  
  It's amazing how prickly people become when anything can be construed to be offensive to Muslims or the religion of Islam in general; they are quick to be "all over it", defensively trying to point out how very wrong it is to cast aspersions.
  
  But by the same token, it's pretty much blase and trendy to disparage Christianity in general and those ^^ same people will say nothing in defense of the religion or the people who follow it.
  
  It's like people are bending themselves over backwards and inside out to put on a show of how PC they are.
  WTF???
  
  Again, I don't give a damn, really, about the proposed mosque. It's very close to ground zero, but not actually considered part of it. Yes, I wonder about what's behind of it all, and perhaps we'll find out those things like who's financing it.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  CenterBHSFan;454295 wrote:I've mentioned this before in a roundabout way, but I'll say it again, just for clarification purposes
  
  It's amazing how prickly people become when anything can be construed to be offensive to Muslims or the religion of Islam in general; they are quick to be "all over it", defensively trying to point out how very wrong it is to cast aspersions.
  
  But by the same token, it's pretty much blase and trendy to disparage Christianity in general and those ^^ same people will say nothing in defense of the religion or the people who follow it.
  
  It's like people are bending themselves over backwards and inside out to put on a show of how PC they are.
  WTF???
  
  Again, I don't give a damn, really, about the proposed mosque. It's very close to ground zero, but not actually considered part of it. Yes, I wonder about what's behind of it all, and perhaps we'll find out those things like who's financing it.

  
  The "party of tolerance" tolerates just about everything but Christianity.
  
  A standing ovation for your post. It was excellent and on the mark.
  
  Another aspect that nobody promoting or defending this answers: If Islam is such a loving and sympathetic religion ... why propose this in the first place when you KNOW it will have this reaction. Why not, out of respect for those who died, simply stay quietly in the background?
  
  Again, this makes me believe there are other, more nefarious, factors at work here.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  CenterBHSFan;454295 wrote:I've mentioned this before in a roundabout way, but I'll say it again, just for clarification purposes
  
  It's amazing how prickly people become when anything can be construed to be offensive to Muslims or the religion of Islam in general; they are quick to be "all over it", defensively trying to point out how very wrong it is to cast aspersions.
  
  But by the same token, it's pretty much blase and trendy to disparage Christianity in general and those ^^ same people will say nothing in defense of the religion or the people who follow it.
  
  It's like people are bending themselves over backwards and inside out to put on a show of how PC they are.
  WTF???
  
  Again, I don't give a damn, really, about the proposed mosque. It's very close to ground zero, but not actually considered part of it. Yes, I wonder about what's behind of it all, and perhaps we'll find out those things like who's financing it.

  
  Hi Center ... first off, I think you are one of the better posters on this site, and I enjoy your contributions. That being said, not sure if you comment was directed at me, but I don't disparage Christianity, I just wondered why some apparent Christians on this site seem to think that you are not American if you don't worship Jesus, that's all.
• Belly35

  

  Wow! Your Undocumented Incompetent Public Servant even call it ground zero ...... ooouch not only can’t he run a country he is piss poor at geography
  
  Quick note: Islam forbids its adherents to follow "man-made" laws and that would include our US Constitution and its Bill of Rights. Islamic "ummah" if given an opportunity would seek sharia system to its followers even in western democracies as evidenced in Canada, UK, France and Netherlands to name a few all supposedly on a "voluntary" basis. Somehow, the sharia stuff happens to pertain to womens' rights in these countries.
  So Gibby you want to take away the right of women in this great American Country?
  
  'Ideology of Pakistan', Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab mentioned that 'Nowhere in the Qur'an or Ahadeeth, you will find Islam being mentioned as a religion. It is always mentioned as Deen. Deen means a complete way of life, whereas religion is a set of laws limited to worshipping etc.'
• CenterBHSFan

  

  BigAppleBuckeye;454123 wrote:haha, I assume your question was tongue-in-cheek?
  
  PS, I am enjoying this debate. There is obviously no black and white answer, and even in some of these points that in principal I disagree with, I do find nuggets of info that make me say "hmm, haven't thought of that."

  BigAppleBuckeye;454126 wrote:PS Center, just in case, this is my stance, in a quick summary

  
  I understood what you were saying!
• Belly35

  

  gibby08;454173 wrote:This is being built 3 blocks away. It's not like they are trying to build it ON Ground Zero(which no one would support)
  
  And for Belly to suggest that Islam is not a real religion is just simply ignorant

  
  Wow! Your Undocumented Incompetent Public Servant even called it ground zero ...... ooouch not only can’t he run a country he is piss poor at geography
  
  Quick note: Islam forbids its adherents to follow "man-made" laws and that would include our US Constitution and its Bill of Rights. Islamic "ummah" if given an opportunity would seek sharia system to its followers even in western democracies as evidenced in Canada, UK, France and Netherlands to name a few all supposedly on a "voluntary" basis. Somehow, the sharia stuff happens to pertain to womens' rights in these countries.
  So Gibby you want to take away the right of women in this great American Country?
  
  'Ideology of Pakistan', Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab mentioned that 'Nowhere in the Qur'an or Ahadeeth, you will find Islam being mentioned as a religion. It is always mentioned as Deen. Deen means a complete way of life, whereas religion is a set of laws limited to worshipping etc.'
• CenterBHSFan

  

  BigAppleBuckeye;454303 wrote:Hi Center ... first off, I think you are one of the better posters on this site, and I enjoy your contributions. That being said, not sure if you comment was directed at me, but I don't disparage Christianity, I just wondered why some apparent Christians on this site seem to think that you are not American if you don't worship Jesus, that's all.

  Nope. I have no beef with ya. I don't really have a beef with any one in particular. Although I do get irritated from time to time haha!
  
  BTW, my previous answer to you locked up and I got the hourglass thingie for a few minutes. So that might have left you wondering a little, too. Not sure if it was OC or just my computer. Oh well.
• HitsRus

  

  There have been several posts insinuating that somehow Muslims cannot be Americans. Which is disheartening. Hopefully I was merely interpreting things wrong or they didn't mean to word it that way.

  Certainly you did not infer that from my post. I quite clearly stated that as a practicing American Catholic, if we were at war with "radical Catholicism" I would be opposed to building anything that might have the remotest possibility of being used by a radical element that I don't agree with.
  
  Several non radical muslims have expressed concerns themselves, and I would think any AMERICAN muslim would be at least understanding as to why such a project in the heart of the most important financial district in the country (an area that has already been attacked) would not be a good idea.
  Truly, no one's religious freedom is being denied, as I'm sure there are other worship areas nearby. Arbitrary zoning laws exist everywhere, so it is certainly the city's right to deny permission.
  
  Since some have introduced 'hypotheticals' into this discussion....
  
  If this was a Catholic church that was proposed to be built...and the city denied it citing that it was a business district or some other arbitrary reason, would you demand it be allowed on 'religious freedom' grounds? Ha ha....now doesn't that sound ridiculous?...Yet this is the very thing that some of our leaders are doing! There are plenty of good reasons to deny the mosque a permit to build...not the least of which is the fact that we are in a de facto state of war with some of that group's radical members.
  This is not a religious freedom issue...it is a zoning issue. That those in charge of our country are actually involved makes me question their priorities ...as well as their competence and sanity.
• BRF

  

  Nice post, Hits! Bang...on the head. Now some might wonder why I just pop in and say that I agree with this guy or disagree with that guy. But I post mostly from my "crackberry" and that makes it difficult to go into it deeper, AND I know that making a statement of how you feel about things should be made WITHOUT the hopes of changing our opponent's stances. SO, I just rely on my buds like Hits and belly to provide how I feel. They pretty much say it all for me. We'll just sit around the campfire and tell you all how it is in America. And it's the truth. Thank you for reading.
• I Wear Pants

  HitsRus;454382 wrote:Certainly you did not infer that from my post. I quite clearly stated that as a practicing American Catholic, if we were at war with "radical Catholicism" I would be opposed to building anything that might have the remotest possibility of being used by a radical element that I don't agree with.
  
  Several non radical muslims have expressed concerns themselves, and I would think any AMERICAN muslim would be at least understanding as to why such a project in the heart of the most important financial district in the country (an area that has already been attacked) would not be a good idea.
  Truly, no one's religious freedom is being denied, as I'm sure there are other worship areas nearby. Arbitrary zoning laws exist everywhere, so it is certainly the city's right to deny permission.
  
  Since some have introduced 'hypotheticals' into this discussion....
  
  If this was a Catholic church that was proposed to be built...and the city denied it citing that it was a business district or some other arbitrary reason, would you demand it be allowed on 'religious freedom' grounds? Ha ha....now doesn't that sound ridiculous?...Yet this is the very thing that some of our leaders are doing! There are plenty of good reasons to deny the mosque a permit to build...not the least of which is the fact that we are in a de facto state of war with some of that group's radical members.
  This is not a religious freedom issue...it is a zoning issue. That those in charge of our country are actually involved makes me question their priorities ...as well as their competence and sanity.

  I didn't mean you Hits.
  
  And as I read back over this today I think I may have been misinterpreting things. Which is why I laid out the possibility for that in the first place. Just because I read something one way doesn't mean that's the way it was meant or that I'll read it that way later.
  
  It isn't even a Mosque though.
  
  Also, I would have the same opinion if this was a Catholic church trying to get built. Probably would be more in support of it seeing as I'm Catholic.
• jhay78

  

  HitsRus;454382 wrote: This is not a religious freedom issue...it is a zoning issue. That those in charge of our country are actually involved makes me question their priorities ...as well as their competence and sanity.

  
  Great overall post- this part hit the nail on the head. This is why I'm so upset with Obama, because he keeps (dishonestly) painting it as a religious freedom issue.
  
  I noticed in his very first comments on the issue (maybe others noticed as well), he seemed to get pretty snippy toward the end, where he said "Muslims have the freedom to worship like everyone else", with extra emphasis on the "everyone else". It almost seemed like he took it personally and went a little overboard (much like the Cambridge police/ black professor indicent). Just a little random thing I noticed, as I've heard that quote probably 20 times by now.
• BRF

  

  I am a member of my town's Planning Commission. I can tell you that this project would be rejected......but I don't want to say any more than that because some would consider it mean..