Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

• jhay78

  

  Glory Days;456868 wrote:a few things i would like to point out:
  
  muslim americans were killed on 9/11.
  this "hallowed ground" the mosque is being built on was an old Burlington Coat Factory.
  there is a mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero that no one cared about, but 2 blocks, well shit, now your too close.
  there is also a mosque in the pentagon(or a place to atleast practice islam, same thing to me), no one has raised a fuss about that yet.
  and how is building this mosque near ground zero going to make it anymore "terrorist like" or dangerous than if it was being built a 1,000 miles away?

  
  Great. Why do they want to build there, and who is paying for it? The answers tell you a lot about Islam.
  
  Great article by Andew McCarthy (WARNING: CONSERVATIVE) that articulates what I've been trying to say a few times in this thread:
  
  http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/243899/tolerant-pose-andrew-c-mccarthy
  

  You can’t aspire to religious freedom by turning a blind eye to the reality of sharia.

  I expressed that about Imam Rauf.
  

  Mosque proponents like the Manhattan Institute’s Josh Barro scoff at discomfiting comparisons between religious liberty in the United States and in Saudi Arabia. For them, the prospect of a mosque at Ground Zero is our “opportunity to show how we are better than Saudis.” That misses the point in two ways. First, we don’t need to show that we are better than the Saudis. We permit thousands of Muslim houses of worship in our nation, Muslims are celebrated in our public life, and our military has done more to protect and defend Muslims — including in Saudi Arabia — than any fighting force in history. Every objective person already knows that, and anybody who purports to need convincing will never be convinced.

  Refutes a lot of posts on this thread.
  

  Second and more significant, the comparison of what is permitted in Manhattan and what is permitted in Mecca is not about the Saudis: It is about Islam. Saudi Arabia does not have any law but sharia. Non-Muslims are discriminated against in the kingdom, not because that’s how the Saudis want it. They are discriminated against because that is how the Koran says it must be.
  
  Sura 9:29, the verse of the Koran that immediately follows the commandment to exclude non-Muslims from holy sites, instructs: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the people of the Book [i.e., Jews and Christians], until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
  
  The jizya is a poll-tax imposed on dhimmis. Those are non-Muslims permitted to live in Islamic territories. The concept is that all the world will eventually be under the thumb of sharia authorities, with dhimmis tolerated so long as they accept their subordinate legal and social status (“and feel themselves subdued&#8221. The alternative for dhimmis is war or death.
  
  Nevertheless, Muslims understand that this global mission cannot be completed in a day. In an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia, where they are in a position to impose sharia in full, that is exactly what they do. In other places, the degree of imposition depends on relative Islamic strength, and it increases as that strength increases. Thus, the standard Muslim position on &#8220alestine,” where Islamic strength is growing but not yet dominant: Muslims are to be permitted to live freely within the Jewish state, but all Jews must be purged from Palestinian territories. Again, that’s not an al-Qaeda position; it’s the mainstream Islamic view. To the extent there is a mainstream dissenting view, it is that the Jewish state should be annihilated immediately — not that the two sides should live in reciprocally tolerant harmony.
  
  In the United States, there is no threat to religious liberty . . . except where there are high concentrations of Muslims. Not high concentrations of al-Qaeda sympathizers — high concentrations of Muslims. As Muslims have flocked to Dearborn, Mich., for example, Henry Ford’s hometown has become infamous for its support of Hezbollah. Recently, four Christian missionaries were arrested by Dearborn police for the crime of handing out copies of St. John’s gospel on a public street outside an Arab festival. The police called it disturbing the peace. But the peace was disturbed only due to the foreboding sense that Muslims might take riotous offense, because sharia forbids the preaching of religions other than Islam.
  

  Bottom line.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Glory Days;456868 wrote:a few things i would like to point out:
  
  muslim americans were killed on 9/11.
  this "hallowed ground" the mosque is being built on was an old Burlington Coat Factory.
  there is a mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero that no one cared about, but 2 blocks, well shit, now your too close.
  there is also a mosque in the pentagon(or a place to atleast practice islam, same thing to me), no one has raised a fuss about that yet.
  and how is building this mosque near ground zero going to make it anymore "terrorist like" or dangerous than if it was being built a 1,000 miles away?

  
  You're making arguments against something I haven't seen stated on here. People on here want the thing scrapped because it's INSENSITIVE and PROVOCATIVE and UNNECESSARY.
  
  As for using the military as a good example...LOL. This is the same group that promoted and ignored a Muslim extremist in their own ranks (because of political correctness and fear of reprisals from said policies) until he finally took a weapon and massacred a bunch of soldiers being processed to go overseas. It would appear the military's judgment on this issue is about as flawed as it comes.
  
  If Muslims are as compassionate and caring about the victims of 9-11 as they claim to be, then why propose building this structure in the first place? And now that the public response has been very critical, why not simply back off?
• BoatShoes

  Writerbuckeye;457105 wrote:You're making arguments against something I haven't seen stated on here. People on here want the thing scrapped because it's INSENSITIVE and PROVOCATIVE and UNNECESSARY.
  
  As for using the military as a good example...LOL. This is the same group that promoted and ignored a Muslim extremist in their own ranks (because of political correctness and fear of reprisals from said policies) until he finally took a weapon and massacred a bunch of soldiers being processed to go overseas. It would appear the military's judgment on this issue is about as flawed as it comes.
  
  If Muslims are as compassionate and caring about the victims of 9-11 as they claim to be, then why propose building this structure in the first place? And now that the public response has been very critical, why not simply back off?

  
  But what if people are unjustifiably being offended and making unsound inductive inferences relating these particular muslims to the muslims that performed the 9/11 attacks? If you're offended based upon an unjustified belief why should someone go out of their way to avoid offending you? It doesn't necessarily follow that those muslims building this mosque don't feel compassion for people killed by others who perverted their religion?
  
  I mean, I guess I just don't see why people are offended; A non-terrorist muslim building a Mosque and attempting to use property for its highest and best use. It'd be like me not wanting a black family to move in next to me because a black kid killed my wife.....a totally illogical inference grounded in the worst kinds of human instincts and supported by the worst kinds of epistemic justification.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  BoatShoes;457120 wrote:But what if people are unjustifiably being offended and making unsound inductive inferences relating these particular muslims to the muslims that performed the 9/11 attacks? If you're offended based upon an unjustified belief why should someone go out of their way to avoid offending you? It doesn't necessarily follow that those muslims building this mosque don't feel compassion for people killed by others who perverted their religion?
  
  I mean, I guess I just don't see why people are offended; A non-terrorist muslim building a Mosque and attempting to use property for its highest and best use. It'd be like me not wanting a black family to move in next to me because a black kid killed my wife.....a totally illogical inference grounded in the worst kinds of human instincts and supported by the worst kinds of epistemic justification.

  Bravo! ... couldn't have said it better myself BoatShoes. Alas, it seems like all this "debating" is really going nowhere. Listening to some of the comments, not necessarily on this site but in other media outlets, I just shake my head and can't believe this is 2010 America.
• Prescott

  But what if people are unjustifiably being offended and making unsound inductive inferences relating these particular muslims to the muslims that performed the 9/11 attacks?

  It doesn't matter if these people are UNJUSTIFIABLY being offended. In their eyes it is a reality and their reality is all that matters. If these Muslims were the tolerant people they claim to be, they would back off and work on educating those who protest this mosque.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Please tell me just who gets to decide if the feelings of the family members objecting to this are justified or not? Or anyone else for that matter.
  
  Who gets to be the great arbiter of hurt feelings, respect and common sense?
  
  I'm guessing it'll have to a someone well indoctrinated into the PC mentality.
• BoatShoes

  Prescott;457218 wrote:It doesn't matter if these people are UNJUSTIFIABLY being offended. In their eyes it is a reality and their reality is all that matters. If these Muslims were the tolerant people they claim to be, they would back off and work on educating those who protest this mosque.

  
  So if I'm unjustifiably offended by a muslim family moving next door to me because a totally unrelated muslim harmed my family; the muslim family moving next door to me is intolerant and lacks compassion if they don't refuse to move into the house next door to mine?
  
  You think people ought to adapt to unreasonable sensitivities and realities??? Their reality is all that matters? That'd be like saying it's ok to be racist without justification because it's their reality and that people should, if they're any kind of good people at all, change their behavior in reaction to those racist sensitivities.
• jhay78

  

  BoatShoes;457120 wrote:But what if people are unjustifiably being offended and making unsound inductive inferences relating these particular muslims to the muslims that performed the 9/11 attacks? If you're offended based upon an unjustified belief why should someone go out of their way to avoid offending you? It doesn't necessarily follow that those muslims building this mosque don't feel compassion for people killed by others who perverted their religion?
  
  I mean, I guess I just don't see why people are offended; A non-terrorist muslim building a Mosque and attempting to use property for its highest and best use. It'd be like me not wanting a black family to move in next to me because a black kid killed my wife.....a totally illogical inference grounded in the worst kinds of human instincts and supported by the worst kinds of epistemic justification.

  
  That's the issue- it's not simply building a mosque and community center to serve the Manhatten community. Why was it called "Cordoba House" originally? The whole concept gives one the idea of Muslim triumph, even though the individuals connected with it have denounced the acts of 9/11.
  

  “Cordoba” is not a name that evokes peaceful coexistence of Islam and the West . . .
  A mosque at Ground Zero is something intelligent people can dispute honestly and in good faith. But honesty is essential, and it would be dishonest to dismiss the implications of proposing to name it Cordoba House

  http://www.urbanelephants.com/index.php/component/content/article/64/2700.html
  
  http://www.doveworld.org/blog/islams-agenda-mosque-building
  
  The above article was from May, and puts it a little more bluntly, but with good arguments.
• Bigdogg

  BigAppleBuckeye;457127 wrote:Bravo! ... couldn't have said it better myself BoatShoes. Alas, it seems like all this "debating" is really going nowhere. Listening to some of the comments, not necessarily on this site but in other media outlets, I just shake my head and can't believe this is 2010 America.

  
  I agree it feels more like Kristallnacht.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  Really credible links there.
  
  Cordoba is also a reference to when it was one of the great cultural centers of the entire world. Just brush up on cultural history of Andalusia.
• Prescott

  You think people ought to adapt to unreasonable sensitivities and realities???

  I think the Muslims who want to build this mosque could do a greater good by accepting the "UNREASONABLE" sensitivities and realities of this specific situation.
• cbus4life

  ptown_trojans_1;457260 wrote:Really credible links there.
  
  Cordoba is also a reference to when it was one of the great cultural centers of the entire world. Just brush up on cultural history of Andalusia.

  
  Yep. The name "Cordoba" certainly doesn't have all the dire implications many are trying to make it seem like it does. It doesn't evoke the "garden of eden" either, so the name is pretty much a non-issue, IMO. Another pointless thing to discuss.
• Glory Days

  

  Writerbuckeye;457105 wrote:You're making arguments against something I haven't seen stated on here. People on here want the thing scrapped because it's INSENSITIVE and PROVOCATIVE and UNNECESSARY.
  
  As for using the military as a good example...LOL. This is the same group that promoted and ignored a Muslim extremist in their own ranks (because of political correctness and fear of reprisals from said policies) until he finally took a weapon and massacred a bunch of soldiers being processed to go overseas. It would appear the military's judgment on this issue is about as flawed as it comes.
  
  If Muslims are as compassionate and caring about the victims of 9-11 as they claim to be, then why propose building this structure in the first place? And now that the public response has been very critical, why not simply back off?

  insensitive to who? are people that stupid they group all muslims together? that is their problem then they are so ignorant, not the mosque's problem. define unnecessary. how many catholic churches are there in NYC? too many? i am sure no one says they are unnecessary when another one goes up. when does it stop? what about businesses and privately owned residences near ground zero? should they all be moved out too? evil terrorists actions can easily be discussed inside them too.
  

  Prescott;457218 wrote:It doesn't matter if these people are UNJUSTIFIABLY being offended. In their eyes it is a reality and their reality is all that matters. If these Muslims were the tolerant people they claim to be, they would back off and work on educating those who protest this mosque.

  
  so what you are saying is you arent tolerant of other people's beliefs since you wont back down and let them build a mosque there?
• Jason Bourne

  

  I haven't taken the time to read all the posts on this thread so forgive me if it's already been mentioned:
  
  It seems to me that a good number of people (at least some I've read and listened to) are more upset at the double standard that appears to be there.
  
  On the one hand, the cry of seperation of church and state gets yelled to anyone or any group that hints at God in the public arena and then nothing when a press conference is given to discuss the building of the mosque.
  
  I have a feeling if this press conference were to be given 5 years ago with a different president, it would be all about how the president is trampling over the establishment clause of the 1st amendment!
  
  The bottom line is few know the true motives for the building. I will agree that it is poor taste. But I certainly will not deny their right to purchase land and build there. I suppose that right (of denying the build) would lay on the folks of that city. Kind of like Wal Marts not being built in an area because the people simply do not want it.
• majorspark

  

  Bigdogg;457255 wrote:I agree it feels more like Kristallnacht.

  
  What an ignorant statement. You need to learn a little history.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  majorspark;457365 wrote:What an ignorant statement. You need to learn a little history.

  
  Don't you know...anyone of a conservative nature who doesn't blindly accept any other culture and what it wants to do is a Nazi.
  
  I swear it's one of the favorite talking points of liberals.
  
  I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring it up.
• HitsRus

  

  Please tell me just who gets to decide if the feelings of the family members objecting to this are justified or not? Or anyone else for that matter.
  
  Who gets to be the great arbiter of hurt feelings, respect and common sense?
  
  I'm guessing it'll have to a someone well indoctrinated into the PC mentality.

  +3
• jhay78

  

  ptown_trojans_1;457260 wrote:Really credible links there.
  
  Cordoba is also a reference to when it was one of the great cultural centers of the entire world. Just brush up on cultural history of Andalusia.

  
  I know, I know- I was in a hurry
  

  cbus4life;457285 wrote:Yep. The name "Cordoba" certainly doesn't have all the dire implications many are trying to make it seem like it does. It doesn't evoke the "garden of eden" either, so the name is pretty much a non-issue, IMO. Another pointless thing to discuss.

  
  If it's so innocent, why isn't the proposed mosque called Cordoba anymore?
• Prescott

  so what you are saying is you arent tolerant of other people's beliefs since you wont back down and let them build a mosque there?

  Personally, I don't care where the mosque is built. I am just saying that, given the state of mind of many Americans concerning this proposed location, the Muslims could do more good for themselves and the perception of their religion by backing off.
• Ankle Breaker

  

  I just feel the Muslims are being insensitive and "in your face" about building a mosque at this location. Do they have the right, by law, to build this near Ground Zero? Yes. Should they? IMO, no. Send out a message of peace, not confrontation. If some radical Christians flew a plane into the capital of Saudi Arabia and some of their brethren wanted to build a Baptist church a couple blocks away sometime in the next few years, I'd say, "C'mon fellas - what are you thinking?"
  
  Most who pray these mosques are probably sincere, peaceful folk. The problem lies in the few radicals who have entered this country as sleepers with ulterior motives and we've all seen what even 19 of these nuts can do. I don't dislike them, I just have been given many, many reasons to distrust them. If you trust them all, well, good for you - you are as naive as a three year old kid. We know the radicals have been here in the US and ARE here now.
  
  Yes, Muslims have some rights but what about the rights of the American people? We should be able to hop on a plane without being concerned about a fellow passenger trying to take the plane down, ride the subway without any concern for nerve gas being released or having a dirty bomb set off in a densely populated area. (the list is much longer than that).
  
  Some of you need to worry more about the rights of the innocent targets in this country and be more sensitive to those who lost love ones on 9/11.
• cbus4life

  Writerbuckeye;457373 wrote:Don't you know...anyone of a conservative nature who doesn't blindly accept any other culture and what it wants to do is a Nazi.
  
  I swear it's one of the favorite talking points of liberals.
  
  I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring it up.

  
  Rofl.
  
  I think both sides are pretty much the same in regards to using the "nazi" slur.
  
  I've seen it plenty by both groups on here, as well as out in the "real world." It is pretty much common knowledge that the "nazi" name-calling isn't more prevalent with any one group.
  
  Both sides, hell, everyone in the entire universe, love to throw out the word "Nazi" when they're doing poorly in a debate, and really have no idea what else to say.
  
  I've seen it with the loons on the left in regards to Bush, and now i seen it with the loons on the right in regards to Obama.
  
  And, as Godwins law dictates, when you use it, you automatically lose the argument.
  
  I agree with you that it is absolutely idiotic, but i'm always disturbed that you can't seem to see that idiocy, in regards to matters like this, isn't confined to one side or another.
  
  On here, without a doubt, it is a favorite of both groups.
  
  It was used a lot by conservatives at the beginning of Obama's term, because they didn't have any real ammo to throw at him. Now that they do have ammo, they don't need to resort to it, and the libs have started throwing it out more and have picked up the slack, because it is pretty much impossible to defend Obama on lots of things right now. Always a tool for the side that is upset and angry but doesn't have any real facts and the like to use in a debate.
• Glory Days

  

  Ankle Breaker;457557 wrote:I just feel the Muslims are being insensitive and "in your face" about building a mosque at this location. Do they have the right, by law, to build this near Ground Zero? Yes. Should they? IMO, no. Send out a message of peace, not confrontation. If some radical Christians flew a plane into the capital of Saudi Arabia and some of their brethren wanted to build a Baptist church a couple blocks away sometime in the next few years, I'd say, "C'mon fellas - what are you thinking?"
  
  Most who pray these mosques are probably sincere, peaceful folk. The problem lies in the few radicals who have entered this country as sleepers with ulterior motives and we've all seen what even 19 of these nuts can do. I don't dislike them, I just have been given many, many reasons to distrust them. If you trust them all, well, good for you - you are as naive as a three year old kid. We know the radicals have been here in the US and ARE here now.

  Ok so what? If there are already a bunch of mosque in NYC, this one single mosque isnt going to create more terrorists by itself. And if there were muslims in NYC that wanted to be a terrorist, they could just goto the mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero. Not building this mosque isnt going to stop terrorism.
  

  Ankle Breaker;457557 wrote: Yes, Muslims have some rights but what about the rights of the American people? We should be able to hop on a plane without being concerned about a fellow passenger trying to take the plane down, ride the subway without any concern for nerve gas being released or having a dirty bomb set off in a densely populated area. (the list is much longer than that).

  So Muslims arent americans? And muslims should be able to walk around this country without having people be suspicious of them everywhere they go. They shouldn’t have to worry about people eye balling them when they get on a plane. (the list is much longer than that).
  

  Ankle Breaker;457557 wrote: Some of you need to worry more about the rights of the innocent targets in this country and be more sensitive to those who lost love ones on 9/11.

  do you mean also being sensitive to the families of the 27 muslim people that died in the world trade centers?
• Ankle Breaker

  

  You're billiant, Glory Days. Who caused the families of the 27 muslims to die? Of course they should be sympathetic to those people but even you should be able to see that those 27 muslims were not the target. Take off your blinders.
• Bigdogg

  Ankle Breaker;457713 wrote:You're billiant, Glory Days. Who caused the families of the 27 muslims to die? Of course they should be sympathetic to those people but even you should be able to see that those 27 muslims were not the target. Take off your blinders.

  
  Terrorist who happen to believe in something that is rejected by 99% of the people of a certain faith.
• Bigdogg

  majorspark;457365 wrote:What an ignorant statement. You need to learn a little history.

  
  Why don't you educate all of us on here with your superior knowledge then?