The Shrinking Middle Class and Perhaps a Manic Appeal to my Conservative Friends.

• Writerbuckeye

  

  Kudos to both of you on your answers to Footwedge and Isadore. You took their arguments and sliced and diced them better than any Ginzu knife has done a tomato during one of those infomercials.
  
  Let me just add one tiny bit on the whole idea that "rightwingers" obviously hate the poor vs. those on the other side of the spectrum.
  
  If this is true, why do surveys consistently show conservatives giving far more of their income to help the poor than those who consider themselves liberal?
  
  Some of the dollar amounts that have been released via income tax forms for certain liberals, like Joe Biden, have been downright embarrassing. He averaged something like $370 in annual giving over a 10 year period. I'm retired and on a fixed income and give far more than that each year to just one charity (I have several favorite charities)...and my giving is hardly extensive simply because I can't afford to give as much as I'd like.
  
  Just because you advocate the government strong-arming money from one group and giving it to another -- does NOT mean you care more about the poor than "right wingers". It just means you like the idea of class warfare through taxation.
  
  http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html
• Footwedge

  queencitybuckeye;438215 wrote:It can be inferred quite easily and accurately. When one sells a business and goes back to work for someone else, their salary will be in line with what they were making on their own. To pretend otherwise defies logic.

  So, if I was making 200K a year being self employed in a very specialized field, and then was forced out due to severe heath issues from continuous product exposure, it's only logical that I could find an alternative career, of which I wasn't the owner, knew nothing about the new industry, and then stepping right in and make 200K a year?
  
  Nice shot. Tee it back up. No mulligan for you. You're hitting your third off the tee.
  

  Speaks to the credibility of your claimed expertise in knowing how big companies operate. You were a non-entity. You do not know.

  I'll be happy to debate you on the day to day, month to month, and year to year operations of huge mega corporations. I worked for 4 of them, and also worked for one very large, privately owned company. I'm sure that I know a helluva lot more about them then you do.
  
  

  No, I attacked the fact that your income proves conclusively that your claims of knowing what was happening in these large companies is untruthful. At that income level, you were a cubicle drone and have no inside knowledge of said businesses.

  LOL. The last so called cubicle I worked in was in 1983. That was so far back, they didn't even separate workers into cubicles. One 15 x 30 room, with both of is looking at each other from across the room.
  

  Actually, income and intelligence have a high positive correlation in the studies made, but that's somewhat off-topic (a favorite trick of yours once simple lying is no longer effective).

  Ad hominem attacks are your favorite. The only time you pop into a debate is to attack the poster. Very seldom have you ever shared your self describing brilliance (you must be brilliant given the fact that you make oh so much money LMFAO.) I have never lied on these boards...not even one time. Every fact that I post I can verify with posted links from neutral sources. The problem with you...you can't accept your preconceptions of the way things are....and then having those preconceptions being proven false.
  

  The facts are that you are making claims to have expertise that your self-admitted background prove conclusively that you do not have.

  Tell you what there Cletus, show one example in which my posts show an erroneous fact. Over 3000 posts now. Go search. You won't because you cant, I never lie, and I never post facts that I can't link proof sources.
  
  
  
  I'd be proud to claim MB as a relative. As to Wall Street, as best I can tell, there isn't one in Charlotte. I do own some really cool ties, although I rarely wear one.[/QUOTE]
• isadore

  major sparks wrote:This post possess no logical arguments and no facts. This post is nothing but pure unadulterated political demagoguery. There are other posters on this forum that many times disagree with my political ideology. Boatshoes, Footwedge, Iggypride00, come to mind. None of them to my recollection have ever resorted to baseless accusations of racism, bigotry, homophobia, or your latest, lack of compassion for the needy. They have at times made logical arguments of their position. Ones that make me think. Because of their reasoning I have a greater understanding of their arguments. Sometimes I agree with them but many times I disagree with them, I do however most times have respect for their opinions.
  
  I think I will respond to this post in pieces so you can't avoid certain questions and hide behind a litany of political demagoguery.

  Factual you and sjm opinions on the poor are largely in agreement,
  He has taken a view anecdotes and used it to justify a program of depravation for the poor.
  Sales taxes are regressive. Income tax could be truly progressive .
  You are a religious zealot.
  You do advocate punitive policies toward the poor.
  I do admire many of ideas in the New Testament, especially the Book of Matthew.
  Private charity, local and state aid have failed to aid the poor in real times of need.
  Historically Southern states have been recalcitrant in providing aid to blacks at time of need.
  All my statements about you are based on fact.
  I am real you have found some friends on here. Everybody needs a buddy.
• isadore

  majorspark;438169 wrote:A religious zealot. Laughable. I will give you a challenge. Search my posts, find where I have personally and directly brought my religious beliefs into an argument other than responding to a poster that did so himself. Like you did in this argument. I sure can't recall a time.
  
  Remember when we butted heads over the abortion issue. Did I bring my religious beliefs into the argument? Did I cite any scripture supporting my argument? You know the answer is no.
  
  You brought religion it to this argument. You cited scripture. I refuted it. You have no logical argument so now I am a religious zealot. How foolish.

  Whether you lecture on human depravity, a recurrent theme with you and quite popular among religious zealots, or completely unbidden in anyway quote from your favorite song based on as you point out is taken from “Priciples (sic) taken from the book of Ecclesiastes,’ (239# gay pride thread)or as you lecture your children on fornication outside marriage based on what the Bible says. (145# gay pride thread).
  It is nice that you push the Reverend Mike Huckabees fair tax idea.
• isadore

  majorspark;438189 wrote:Isadore I will give you one more chance to answer Hits question. Your dodging has answered it thus far for us. But come on, I am curious to any logical arguments against it.
  
  Do you understand the concept, that business does not 'pay' tax...that it passes it on to it's consumers, who pay for the tax in the increased cost. The business then collects it for the government? Yes or no?... or if you disagree with that assertion, tell me what you disagree with?
  
  The equation is simple. Cost of bringing product to market + Profit + Tax on profit = Cost of product. The bottom line is I have to make a profit. Whether the cost of bringing my product to market is a raw material, insurance, legal, taxes, etc. There is no difference.

  Business can be made to pay taxes, we have used price controls before in this country. But we can get much of the same effect by raising the taxes on stock dividends and capital gains.
• isadore

  major sparks wrote:I prefer the states and the people handle the day to day care of our needy citizens. In the case of a national emergency I am not against federal intervention. I prefer that the power be granted to the feds through the amendment process. A declaration of state of economic emergency by the president and approval by congress seems reasonable to me.
  
  You bring up the past failures of some of our southern states as a reason to distrust them. Yet you ignore the Federal governments past deprivation of the needs of our Native American brothers. Both levels of government have committed wrongs on their fellow man. Both levels of government today have progresses from that.

  
  Luckily we do not have to mess around with the amendment process for a power the federal government already has. And it has been put to could use again and again as state and local governments prove unable to handle the needs of their people in almost any emergency situation.
  And to see if we have progressed past discrimination playing a role in aid, we will have to see if the Rand Pauls of our world rise to power.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  isadore;438341 wrote:Business can be made to pay taxes, we have used price controls before in this country. But we can get much of the same effect by raising the taxes on stock dividends and capital gains.

  
  That will do wonders for capital investment. It is difficult enough for small and growing businesses to get funding currently. How is increasing the cost going to aid growth?
• isadore

  “baseless accusation of”…..”lack of compassion for the needy.”

  majorspark;438188 wrote:Do you know how foolish you look? You just made the exclamation point on political demagoguery. Because I had the audacity to require that an able bodied person receiving aid from the state be required to give a small percentage of community service for every dollar they receive in aid, instead of unproductively sitting on their ass. I want them to be on chain gangs slaving for the state.

  majorspark;438186 wrote:Damn right. We should provide those in need with the basic necessities of life. Food clothing and shelter. In that respect as little as possible. Not cell phones, cable/satellite TV, internet, xbox, flat screen TV, etc.

  Lets give them the minimum possible for them to survive and then lets work them for that. And I said you lacked compassion. How could I be so wrong. No cell phone, lets cut them off from the world. And we sure would not want their kids to be able to watch basic cable. That will spoil them.
  Maybe hair shirts, or signs they can where around their neck saying I am not a productive member of society while they are doing required labor for the state. With millions of people losing their jobs after a lifetime of work, it sure will do a lot of good to then humiliate. How about a little Christian or even humanist charity, I guess not. Allowing these people who are receiving funds from the state, any self respect is a little too much to ask.
• sjmvsfscs08

  I'm still waiting for you to answer my question.
  
  Furthermore, and perhaps I'm mistaken, but I'd like you to point out exactly where I state we should cut benefits to the poor. I have merely asked if it were at all possible that people could be gaming the system and certain political groups would benefit from it.
  
  Also if you want to respond to what my Europeans have said, that'd be super too. But please, if you use the word anecdotal, I might just fall asleep reading more of your posts.
• isadore

  sjmvsfscs08 wrote: 
  This is just laughable. For starters, you didn't anser my question:
  If anecdotal evidence (some call it witnessing) is such a joke, why do people ever testify in front of Congress? Why do we listen to what anyone has to say who disagrees with us (because the CBO didn't churn out those numbers?)? Why do we interview anyone, ever? It's pretty funny how anecdotal evidence via The Jungle helped spurn social programs and business safety and cleanliness standards. But oh wait, my year's worth of experience working in the poorest section of Toledo is moot because.....I'm still wiating.
  I taught the kids. I met their families. I drove them to and from school. I witnessed how they live and the culture of poverty. Am I denying poverty exists? Fuck no. Are there people who are dirt poor who need help? Absolutely. But ask yourself a question, should welfare be comfortable? If your answer is "yes," why would you ever desire to get off welfare? Many, many people don't. If your answer is "no," you're obviously a social Darwinist and should go fuck yourself.
  
  Another question, is it at all possible welfare has been designed or ignored so people can take advantage of it? Would it behoove the government to get people to stay on welfare, to essentially stay in their miserable conditions? It's an interesting question. If I'm in the business of alleviating poverty, if I get more people out of it, I become less important don't I? Is it at all possible that's how some in the government treat welfare? If it at all possible the government blames hardworking and successful people, and blames the other party to garner votes from the poor? Is it at all possible that the same party who pledges to be on the side of the poor people would want them to stay poor so they can always have them on their side?
  
  "Poor people have been voting Democrat for the last fifty years, and they're still poor." - Charles Barkley.
  
  The man has a point. Perhaps some politicians want people to be poor, so they make it just comfortable enough for people not to get unruly and yet stay in their conditions. Maybe some politicians need the poor to need them. It's like that Cheap Trick song:
  
  
  
  How ironic the band is Cheap Trick, because maybe it's possible it's all just a "cheap trick" to get votes via growing dependence on the government.
  
  Allow me to use one of your favorite tools, called "Show What is Happening in Europe."
  
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8707652.stm
  http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510

  People testify, some testimony brings light, some only heat. Your testimony is of the second variety, meant to feed the prejudices about welfare queens and justify cutting the pittance we provide the poor. The observation of the semi-privileged on the conduct of the poor, looking down your nose at them, so superior to them and the choices they make. They get so little and you want to deprive them of that.
  At least Upton Sinclair had sympathy for his the victims of industrialism, all we get from you is condemnation and self righteous superiortiy
  You seem quite ready to take the roof over children’s heads, the clothes off their back and the food out of their mouths in order to punish their parents or parent for not using the small amount their given in a way you approve.
  50 years they may have stayed poor, but they didn’t starve to death because someone cut their benefits.
  Of course you seem a little inconsistent on one hand bitching about their jumbo tx and air conditioning and then going on about how miserable their conditions are. Is it so bad as we go through the hottest summer in recorded history that these folks and their children have air conditioning, I guess it is for you.
  And what source do drop on us “The Brussel’s Journal, the Voice of Conservatism in Europe” with information from Bruegel, an extreme right wing think tank.
  Duncan Smith, former reactionary leader of the Conservative party, on the warpath to fight Britain’s budget deficit on the back of the poor.
  Why use European sources when we can go more local for source.
  This program was on NBC Dateline last Sunday about poverty in Southeastern Ohio
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38382773/ns/dateline_nbc-america_now
  People really suffering, you might enjoy it yourself. You can watch and nickel and dime these folks about some of the choices they made. Poor like the rest of us make some bad choices. You can watch them and feel so completely superior to them.
• isadore

  general94;438216 wrote:I don't need to respond anymore on this topic anymore. Majorspark and sjmvsfscs08 have both hit grand slams.

  
  tweedle dee's reaction to what tweedle dum I and II had to say. He of course nods his head approvingly.
• isadore

  believer;438235 wrote:Majorspark, My hat is off to you. You have eloquently and succinctly stated your case against arguably the most rhetorically adept ultra-liberal on this forum. I'm with General94...there's nothing left to be said here.

  
  I would tend to disagree.
  As a former bobcat, you maybe interested in this. The Dateline Program was about the poor in Athens County and the surrounding area. On one side you can see how rough it is for the poor. On the other, if you are looking for reasons to run them down, you can find them.
• majorspark

  

  isadore;438338 wrote:Whether you lecture on human depravity, a recurrent theme with you and quite popular among religious zealots,

  You got me here. Commenting on thousands of years of humans killing, maiming, enslaving and stealing from each other makes me a religious zealot? Now that is some funny stuff right there. You can't make this shit up. Isn't it you that lectures about the depravity of our human brothers in the south? So much so that they can't be trusted with more rights to rule themselves.
  

  isadore;438338 wrote: or completely unbidden in anyway quote from your favorite song based on as you point out is taken from &#8220riciples (sic) taken from the book of Ecclesiastes,’

  What can I say. I noted that one of my favorite songs was taken from principles in the book of Ecclesiastes.
  

  isadore;438338 wrote:(239# gay pride thread)or as you lecture your children on fornication outside marriage based on what the Bible says. (145# gay pride thread).

  And It was a direct response to a poster who brought the bible into the discussion and asked what poster is going to tell his children.
  

  isadore;438338 wrote:It is nice that you push the Reverend Mike Huckabees fair tax idea.

  Now this is a gem. Because the Reverend Mike Huckabee supports the fair tax and I support the fair tax it is no wonder I am religious zealot. I sure you and the reverends Al and Jesse see eye to eye on a few things.
  
  The fair tax idea isn't Huckabee's invention. It was developed by a group called Americans for Fair Taxation, and it has already been written into a bill sponsored by Georgia congressman John Linder. I support it because I think it would help the middle class and bring jobs back in to the USA and take power out of the elitists hands.
  
  But keep trying chief. I am always up for a good laugh.
• sjmvsfscs08

  isadore;438385 wrote: This program was on NBC Dateline last Sunday about poverty in Southeastern Ohio
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38382773/ns/dateline_nbc-america_now

  
  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Was that not just one anecdotal account? Isn't it thus worthless?
  
  Lyndon Johnson's plans failed miserably. He was a Democrat, and shouldn't you know it....the same people are still poor, if not poorer. The region has always been, and always will be, poor. They live in Appalachia, it's literally a region with no future. When I watch that video I don't feel superior, I simply see a population that should GET THE FUCK OUT OF APPALACHIA. The United States is the land of opportunity, but there is no opportunity in the shithole known as Appalachia. Their living conditions are miserable, and they should be helped, but Jesus Christ you don't need to pass 10th grade to see how terrible of a situation the whole region is in.
  
  Or maybe, you do need to pass 10th grade, because she didn't. She chose the very smart path of dropping out of high school to start a family and "live on the farm." Boy that's very bright. Statistics show (how un-anecdotal of me) teenage mothers and high school dropouts are destined for a life of poverty.
  
  
  Before you continue to assume I'm some rich guy hating the poor while I sip tea and crumpets, you should probably know your enemy.
  
  My family has been living in the same town for four generations in rural NW Ohio. My great-grandfather started a concrete company, which turned into an asphalt company in 1912. He worked his ass off managing the tiny company his entire life. He was a farmer before then, and a farmer during it too. When he wasn't on the fields he was laying asphalt for Ohio's first roads. When the great depression struck, he gave most of his farm away. He built houses in town for dirt cheap and gave land away to those who needed it. He donated land to the local high school, the local Catholic and Methodist churches, and hundreds upon hundreds of people. He used his concrete company and sons to build their houses and sold them for pennies on the dollar. If that's not helping the poor....you're the blind one.
  
  His son graduated through the local high school and joined the Navy. Served in World War II, earned a Purple Heart, and had fourteen kids to work the small farm and company. I remember hearing about how they'd have to eat tomato skin sandwiches and such because there would be so little food available per person because they had to sell it to make ends meet. But they pressed on. Thirteen of the fourteen kids graduated from high school, all of them from private Catholic schools in Toledo. My dad graduated from Toledo St. Francis in 1962. He had to walk and hitch hike every day to school to get his education. No buses, no ride. By the time his younger brothers and sisters were entering Cardinal Stritch High School, business was better and they were able to not only send their children to school, but they paid for the migrant workers' children to go to Cardinal Stritch too. Is that not helping the poor? Jake Sanchez, a poor migrant worker who worked his entire childhood on our farm (like my aunts and uncles), had his education because of my grandparents. His determination and work ethic paid off. He went 27-1 his senior year of wrestling and EARNED a wrestling scholarship to Marshall. A few years ago he sold his computer company, which he started himself, for $36,000,000. He is now a massive benefactor of Latino scholarships. Hardwork earned him the American dream. My dad and his brothers held the national record for most Eagle Scouts from the same family, eight, for decades. I mean come on it's a fucking institution based on helping and serving others.
  
  As for my dad, he made it through St. Francis and was able, thanks to Army ROTC, to continue his education at Xavier. After college he served two tours in Vietnam as a forward observer (one more tour than he had to). Two bronze stars and years of walking through Agent Orange later, he returned to manage the previously mentioned company. He worked fourteen-hour days to run the company and/or farm. In 2000, thanks to serving our country in Vietnam and working his entire like tirelessly, got leukemia and died three months after my tenth birthday. Selling the company and life insurance allowed for me and my four brothers and sisters to got to private school and earn an education. "Earn an education" is key, and actually learned in school unlike so many others. I was the leading scorer on the quiz bowl team with 135 points, second place was 47. I EARNED a full ride to the University of Toledo, and I earned the 50% ride Ohio State was willing to give me to transfer in. I technically currently have a 4.0 at Ohio State, which I have earned.
  
  I don't think you have a fucking clue what hard work, or to willingness to actually earn something, is. Of course, it's much easier to point the finger at someone and say they hate the poor than to turn around and see the millions of people who live off the government with no real plan of changing that. Was I talking about Appalachia earlier? Hell no. I was referring to the poor in the cities who game the system on a consistent basis. Government housing, government food, government aid for children, government stipends. How blatantly can I put it, it's no temporary, it's a fucking lifestyle.
  
  But don't trust me:
  
  [video=vimeo;7961197][/video]
  
  [video=youtube;t3e41prVDv4][/video]
  
  [video=youtube36x8rTb3jI][/video]
  
  You want a path out of poverty, join the military and/or open a school book.
  
  I think it's funny Democrats will regulate the shit out of business (rightfully so to a certain extent) yet when it comes to welfare regulation is the devil. Why can't we have drug testing? Why can't we schedule mandatory tutoring so kids aren't failing school? Why can't we mandate job applications must be sent out to receive aid, so we at least know they're looking. Why don't we have a program which actually helps get people out of poverty?!
  
  Simply put, I don't hate the poor, I hate the poor who remain poor after they're giving assistance because it's comfortable.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "When I watch that video I don't feel superior, I simply see a population that should GET THE FUCK OUT OF APPALACHIA. "
  
  I see a problem that has been going on for decades. Those are the fattest bunch of hungry people I've ever seen, and it is like that around my parents' old place. Our old farm is surrounded by trailer after trailer of folks that have got used to being reliant on anyone else but themselves, and to be honest we've probably added to the problem with charity. If they asked for furniture, it was provided by us or the local churches. If it was food, plenty of food would be donated.
  
  I've spent more time in the last few weeks in Ohio than I have in the previous 10 years, and there is a problem, but it isn't hunger. Wasn't Huntington, WV called the "fattest city in America" recently?
  
  I don't understand how Ann Curry and NBC can run a story about this and not see their own footage that shows that the vast majority of people are OVERWEIGHT?
  
  We are truly living in strange times.
• isadore

  majorspark;438426 wrote:You got me here. Commenting on thousands of years of humans killing, maiming, enslaving and stealing from each other makes me a religious zealot? Now that is some funny stuff right there. You can't make this shit up. Isn't it you that lectures about the depravity of our human brothers in the south? So much so that they can't be trusted with more rights to rule themselves.
  
  
  
  What can I say. I noted that one of my favorite songs was taken from principles in the book of Ecclesiastes.
  
  And It was a direct response to a poster who brought the bible into the discussion and asked what poster is going to tell his children.
  
  Now this is a gem. Because the Reverend Mike Huckabee supports the fair tax and I support the fair tax it is no wonder I am religious zealot. I sure you and the reverends Al and Jesse see eye to eye on a few things.
  
  The fair tax idea isn't Huckabee's invention. It was developed by a group called Americans for Fair Taxation, and it has already been written into a bill sponsored by Georgia congressman John Linder. I support it because I think it would help the middle class and bring jobs back in to the USA and take power out of the elitists hands.
  
  But keep trying chief. I am always up for a good laugh.

  The examples are there to show you have shown the attributes of religious zealot shown in your views on the social issues of the day. But it is so much more than just that. Your continuing strident advocacy of the states rights doctrine that has caused produced a civil war and causes untold oppression of minorities in our nation’s history.
  And again we get another of these views from the fringe. The Fair Tax, plagiarized the followers of L. Ron Hubbard. “
  “Scientology's Fair Tax Plot
  The New Republic: Plan Backed By Mike Huckabee Has Roots With L. Ron Hubbard
  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/07/opinion/main3241621.shtml
  
  The article is by Bruce Bartlett, an Treasury official in the first Bush Administration. In the article he does a really great job of showing why Fair Tax can not work.
• isadore

  Manhattan Buckeye;438498 wrote:"When I watch that video I don't feel superior, I simply see a population that should GET THE FUCK OUT OF APPALACHIA. "
  
  I see a problem that has been going on for decades. Those are the fattest bunch of hungry people I've ever seen, and it is like that around my parents' old place. Our old farm is surrounded by trailer after trailer of folks that have got used to being reliant on anyone else but themselves, and to be honest we've probably added to the problem with charity. If they asked for furniture, it was provided by us or the local churches. If it was food, plenty of food would be donated.
  
  I've spent more time in the last few weeks in Ohio than I have in the previous 10 years, and there is a problem, but it isn't hunger. Wasn't Huntington, WV called the "fattest city in America" recently?
  
  I don't understand how Ann Curry and NBC can run a story about this and not see their own footage that shows that the vast majority of people are OVERWEIGHT?
  
  We are truly living in strange times.

  duh, because the diet food pantries and food stamps are able to provide is on that is heavy on starch. It is the cheapest of foods and that is why some of them are fat. Poor nutrition based on financial need.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  No, they are fatasses that don't work out. Bananas are cheap. Tomatoes are cheap. Even lean meats can be had inexpensively. Even better $35 buys a pair of running shoes that will work.
  
  I grew up outside Huntington. There isn't a Gold's Gym or anything like that remotely close. It is a pathetic part of the country, and coddling and feeding their misery (pun sort of intended) isn't going to work.
  
  They are poor, but NO ONE is starving. It is a lack of self-respect and community respect. And it is again pathetic, I'm damn near ashamed that I'm from that area. We are in a race to the bottom on dependence.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  By the way notice in the video that poor kid #1 is drinking a Pepsi (not a Diet Pepsi, not a Big K Cola, but a regular Pepsi) and poor kid #2 is drinking a Sobe water, which WE don't buy unless it is on sale.
• isadore

  sjmvsfscs08 wrote: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Was that not just one anecdotal account? Isn't it thus worthless?
  
  Lyndon Johnson's plans failed miserably. He was a Democrat, and shouldn't you know it....the same people are still poor, if not poorer. The region has always been, and always will be, poor. They live in Appalachia, it's literally a region with no future. When I watch that video I don't feel superior, I simply see a population that should GET THE FUCK OUT OF APPALACHIA. The United States is the land of opportunity, but there is no opportunity in the shithole known as Appalachia. Their living conditions are miserable, and they should be helped, but Jesus Christ you don't need to pass 10th grade to see how terrible of a situation the whole region is in.
  
  Or maybe, you do need to pass 10th grade, because she didn't. She chose the very smart path of dropping out of high school to start a family and "live on the farm." Boy that's very bright. Statistics show (how un-anecdotal of me) teenage mothers and high school dropouts are destined for a life of poverty.
  
  
  Before you continue to assume I'm some rich guy hating the poor while I sip tea and crumpets, you should probably know your enemy.
  
  My family has been living in the same town for four generations in rural NW Ohio. My great-grandfather started a concrete company, which turned into an asphalt company in 1912. He worked his ass off managing the tiny company his entire life. He was a farmer before then, and a farmer during it too. When he wasn't on the fields he was laying asphalt for Ohio's first roads. When the great depression struck, he gave most of his farm away. He built houses in town for dirt cheap and gave land away to those who needed it. He donated land to the local high school, the local Catholic and Methodist churches, and hundreds upon hundreds of people. He used his concrete company and sons to build their houses and sold them for pennies on the dollar. If that's not helping the poor....you're the blind one.
  
  His son graduated through the local high school and joined the Navy. Served in World War II, earned a Purple Heart, and had fourteen kids to work the small farm and company. I remember hearing about how they'd have to eat tomato skin sandwiches and such because there would be so little food available per person because they had to sell it to make ends meet. But they pressed on. Thirteen of the fourteen kids graduated from high school, all of them from private Catholic schools in Toledo. My dad graduated from Toledo St. Francis in 1962. He had to walk and hitch hike every day to school to get his education. No buses, no ride. By the time his younger brothers and sisters were entering Cardinal Stritch High School, business was better and they were able to not only send their children to school, but they paid for the migrant workers' children to go to Cardinal Stritch too. Is that not helping the poor? Jake Sanchez, a poor migrant worker who worked his entire childhood on our farm (like my aunts and uncles), had his education because of my grandparents. His determination and work ethic paid off. He went 27-1 his senior year of wrestling and EARNED a wrestling scholarship to Marshall. A few years ago he sold his computer company, which he started himself, for $36,000,000. He is now a massive benefactor of Latino scholarships. Hardwork earned him the American dream. My dad and his brothers held the national record for most Eagle Scouts from the same family, eight, for decades. I mean come on it's a fucking institution based on helping and serving others.
  
  As for my dad, he made it through St. Francis and was able, thanks to Army ROTC, to continue his education at Xavier. After college he served two tours in Vietnam as a forward observer (one more tour than he had to). Two bronze stars and years of walking through Agent Orange later, he returned to manage the previously mentioned company. He worked fourteen-hour days to run the company and/or farm. In 2000, thanks to serving our country in Vietnam and working his entire like tirelessly, got leukemia and died three months after my tenth birthday. Selling the company and life insurance allowed for me and my four brothers and sisters to got to private school and earn an education. "Earn an education" is key, and actually learned in school unlike so many others. I was the leading scorer on the quiz bowl team with 135 points, second place was 47. I EARNED a full ride to the University of Toledo, and I earned the 50% ride Ohio State was willing to give me to transfer in. I technically currently have a 4.0 at Ohio State, which I have earned.
  
  I don't think you have a fucking clue what hard work, or to willingness to actually earn something, is. Of course, it's much easier to point the finger at someone and say they hate the poor than to turn around and see the millions of people who live off the government with no real plan of changing that. Was I talking about Appalachia earlier? Hell no. I was referring to the poor in the cities who game the system on a consistent basis. Government housing, government food, government aid for children, government stipends. How blatantly can I put it, it's no temporary, it's a fucking lifestyle.
  
  But don't trust me:
  
  
  
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3e41prVDv4&feature=player_embedded
  
  
  You want a path out of poverty, join the military and/or open a school book.
  
  I think it's funny Democrats will regulate the shit out of business (rightfully so to a certain extent) yet when it comes to welfare regulation is the devil. Why can't we have drug testing? Why can't we schedule mandatory tutoring so kids aren't failing school? Why can't we mandate job applications must be sent out to receive aid, so we at least know they're looking. Why don't we have a program which actually helps get people out of poverty?!
  
  Simply put, I don't hate the poor, I hate the poor who remain poor after they're giving assistance because it's comfortable.

  
  
  Well sym you have said absolutely nothing to refute my description as semi-privileged. In fact I am considering dropping the semi. So your great grandfather worked hard, your grandfather worked hard, your father worked hard. Great, congratulations, pin a rose on YOU. And you were educated in private school to be quiz bowl champ, wow. You know some people don’t have that background. I guess they should be punished because their great grandfather did not work a full weeks, hell he was kind of a loafer.
  I started working 30 hours a week when I was in 8th grade to begin to earn the money to pay for my college education and continued that effort throughout college. Big deal. I had a 2 parent home and knew where my next meal was coming from even though there were strikes and layoffs for my parents.
  Well I had advantages that many living in poverty did not have and as opposed to you I choose not to look down my nose at them for their condition. I realize that although the New Deal and the Great Society made an effort to help the poor, it has always been under funded and under serviced by an often punitive attitude toward the poor, found for example in the falsely labeled “welfare reform’
  People should move from Appalachia, like there are so many great choices, North Dakota has a great unemployment rate.
  
  That tape gives absolutely no context to that woman or her problems.
  But where you got that tape say a lot more about you chief. You put that tape up and its from Diversity is Crap.com. Wow. Videos labeled ‘n-word gone wild’ except no euphemism and “dirty jews one racist video after another, You are beyond the pale.
• isadore

  Manhattan Buckeye;438515 wrote:By the way notice in the video that poor kid #1 is drinking a Pepsi (not a Diet Pepsi, not a Big K Cola, but a regular Pepsi) and poor kid #2 is drinking a Sobe water, which WE don't buy unless it is on sale.

  
  the nerve of him to drink a pepsi. when he could be lapping water out of a puddle on the roadside. No cost to the community then.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  The nerve to bullox my point, fatass poor kid can drink a Big K for a fraction of the cost. If these people are really poor, they wouldn't be so fat and they'd make sacrifices.
  
  That video angered me because it shows how dependent our 'poor' are and their inability to accept responsibility. Again I grew up there, I know how these folks operate. Care to continue?
  
  They are fat and pathetic, and YOUR link showed it.
  
  Thanks!
• isadore

  your welcome, it must be nice to look down your nose at your roots.
• isadore

  sjm,, your original tape was seen before you edited it out. what kind of sites do you use as sources, wow.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  No but it is nice to take responsibility instead of being a fat waste of space. Those people weren't sympathetic. If you want us to all do be dependent on the government, that's our future. A bunch of fat idiots.