The Shrinking Middle Class and Perhaps a Manic Appeal to my Conservative Friends.

• sjmvsfscs08

  believer;436077 wrote:I was with you until I read this. The government is not - nor should it be - in the business of creating jobs. The best way for the government to create private sector employment is by getting the hell out of the way.

  
  Let me rephrase, "I simply think the roll of the government, domestically, is to create an environment in which permanent jobs are created via the private sector. People are content when they have a job." Basically, get the fuck out of the way. Low taxes, small government, efficient and sensible regulation.
• majorspark

  

  Paladin;435957 wrote:You business owners think you can BS the world with that garbage.

  Allow me to give you a little BS from a business owner's perspective. Both my parents were high school dropouts. They divorced when I was 10. I lived with my Dad. He was laid off from his job in the coal mines for a good portion of my high school years. He worked his ass off to keep us afloat. When I graduated high school he had nothing to give to me financially. I was on my own.
  
  In my first year of college I cleaned shitters in office buildings from 5pm to when I got done, usually between 11pm and 12pm, to limit the loans I needed to take to get through school. My 2nd year I took a full time night job in a factory to help pay my way through school. That 2nd year I worked full time and carried a full time schedule in college. Because of personal responsibilities the next few years I worked full time and cut my school back to part time. Except for a semester or two where I carried a full time school load out of necessity in order to meet a graduation goal. In all this I found a way to graduate with honors.
  
  Prior to graduation I was able to attain a promotion into the engineering department. They took me on as a jr draftsman. My wages were basically the same as when I worked on the floor. It was the mid 90's and I was making less than 25k. I lost the OT but gained experience.
  
  I tried to get financial assistance for my education from my place of employment but they refused. The engineering manager was sympathetic and allowed me to slip away one semester to catch a class three times a week so I could finish up and meet my graduation requirements. He knew I would work extra hours to catch up. I never let the man down. I can't thank him enough.
  
  Once I gained experience in the manufacturing environment the entrepreneurial spirit in me began to flourish. I found an idea and risked my personal and family's capital to pursue it. It became a hellish experience for my family and myself at times.
  
  I have worked at times for nearly 40 hours strait to get orders out (not all physical). Do any of the bureaucrats in Washington know what that is like? Does anyone know what happens to your body when you push it to that extreme? Your body will shut you down. You lose your mental capacity. When your body shuts down you will drop right where you are at. I have curled up many times on my shop floor right on top of my product.
  
  Along the way I provided jobs for people. During hard times at the beginning I paid their wages out of my own personal funds. Several times my wife had to take the walk of shame at the grocery store because the funds were not available on the debit card. Not easy on a marriage. I sat in front of a bankruptcy lawyer contemplating my failure.
  
  I refused to declare bankruptcy. I refused to accept failure. Today my business generates profit. All my debts are paid, business and personal (except for my house and a small personal loan).
  
  The very idea that some of my fellow countrymen would not categorize me as a "working" American because I have achieved some level of success or that I would attempt to BS the world with garbage because of my political ideology makes me want to puke.
• believer

  

  majorspark;436420 wrote:The very idea that some of my fellow countrymen would not categorize me as a "working" American because I have achieved some level of success or that I would attempt to BS the world with garbage because of my political ideology makes me want to puke.

  Great testimony, Major.
  
  For some of your fellow countrymen, you made the cardinal sin of having labored, sacrificed, and finally made a profit.
  
  To them you make too much money, so you are now "rich." Your profits should be confiscated for redistribution to pay the health care for - oh I dunno - illegal immigrants. For the lefties you're now heartless, greedy, racist, and sexist subject to government over-regulation, "progressive" taxes, and the prospect of BHO's upcoming cap & trade scheme. Because of your personal labor and sacrifice, you were able to create a few jobs which now makes you a greedy capitalist. Therefore Big Labor will soon pass out union cards to your employees so you will start treating the employees fairly.
  
  See how that works?
  

  sjmvsfscs08;436416 wrote:Let me rephrase, "I simply think the roll of the government, domestically, is to create an environment in which permanent jobs are created via the private sector. People are content when they have a job." Basically, get the fuck out of the way. Low taxes, small government, efficient and sensible regulation.

  OK thanks for clarifying. lol
• general94

  Good testimony majorspark. Should be required reading for every Lib.
  
  Also, I am to a bit confused by some of the "figures" at the beginning of this topic.
  
  So, the number of millionares increased over the last few years. How is this bad for the middle class? To me it shows that even with how fucked up everything is right now, this is still the country with the most oppurtunity if someone wants to work hard. Let me get this straight, we should be pissed because a good number of people moved into the upper class from the middle class????? I would think this should be celebrated. Imagine how many more of the populace could advance if we returned to pro-growth policies. Hell, we are still creating millionares, even with the government basically doing everything in its power to redistribute wealth and create a socialist state.
• general94

  Who pays income taxes and how much?
  Tax Year 2007:
  Source: IRS
  Top 1% - 40.42%
  Top 5% - 60.63%
  Top 10% - 71.22%
  Top 25% - 86.59%
  Top 50% - 97.11%
  Bottom 50% - 2.89%
• HitsRus

  

  Well it really isn't that hard to see.....just follow the financial rewards. There are financial incentives to be rich. There are financial rewards to be poor. To be middle class is to be taxed and taxed and taxed.
  
  

  You business owners think you can BS the world with that garbage

  Save your anti business rhetoric. You obviously have no clue that a business owner is an unpaid tax collector for the government. With a gun to its head, and at great cost to itself and it's customers, it levies taxes upon its workers and it's products. It collects them, documents them, bundles them...and then ships them in a neat little package to Washington, Columbus and various taxing agencies, where it can be distributed to wherever votes need to be purchased. There is one politcal party that is particularly adept at this. It is the natural enemy of the bourgeoise. It's insidious goal is to tax the productive and redistribute it to the non productive. The more it can ensnare in its web of dependency, the better for the party. More dependence means more votes for itself. That its supporters would decry the 'shrinking middle class' underscores its deceptiveness, for its very policy is to eliminate it. Demonize the 'rich'....its good for votes.
  
  What happenned to the American dream? ....Work hard, so that you and your posterity will have a better life.
  Eh, work hard, so you can be taxed. Or don't work and the government will send you a check. Shouldn't it be a goal to be rich?....not easier to be poor?
• Bigdogg

  Here are your fellow Republican teammates. If you think they give a shit about the middle class you are crazy.
  
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/29/AR2010072906345.html?hpid=topnews
• CenterBHSFan

  

  HitsRus;436476 wrote:What happenned to the American dream? ....Work hard, so that you and your posterity will have a better life.
  Eh, work hard, so you can be taxed. Or don't work and the government will send you a check. Shouldn't it be a goal to be rich?....not easier to be poor?

  
  Excellent philosophical question, and really deserves its own thread! I think it would be a great discussion, in and of itself.
• gut

  HitsRus;436344 wrote: The biggest single threat to the middle class is taxes and bloated government.

  
  That's a great point. I often talk about inflation and point out how a little inflation is good for economic growth. When people start complaining about energy prices, I point out how this is offset by lower prices/more value in other areas such as electronics or housing. Of course, CPI measures EXCLUDE taxes, so you're point about being nickled and dimed is spot-on. If the actual taxes we paid was cut by 5%, people could maintain their lifestyles and be saving 5% of their income, which would be significant.
  
  Add to bloated govt the out-of-control wages and benefits they are receiving. Used to be govt jobs paid less than the private sector, 2/3 or less (but made up for it with generous pensions).....Now they make MORE than the private sector and still have the nice pension. Working for the govt is a great gig these days, if you can get it.
• derek bomar

  

  let's be honest...it's cuz he's black ain't it? (sarcasm alert)
• isadore

  HitsRus wrote:What happenned to the American dream? ....Work hard, so that you and your posterity will have a better life. Eh, work hard, so you can be taxed. Or don't work and the government will send you a check. Shouldn't it be a goal to be rich?....not easier to be poor?

  The American dream, make life more painful for the poor. Let them be homeless, without medical treatment, without food. Now that will be a motivator. Starving Ameicans, is that your dream for our country?
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Yeah, that's what he said, Isadore. God I never cease to be amazed at how the left can twist anything -- even the American dream -- into semi-Marxist rhetoric.
• Paladin

  All done ? Heard sob stories before. Some businessmen are to be commended. But frankly, heres the facts of life ( and we used to run a business, so I've rubbed elbows with you "honest" gentlemen )-- a business is run FOR PROFIT. And theres nothing wrong with that. People are hired to HELP you MAKE THAT PROFIT. They are often also hired to relieve you of the TIME required to run a business. In short, the only reason people are hired is to increase profits , make more money or give you time you don't have to be on the job. Now if you wanna pat yourself on the back about being great humanitarians, I'll just recount the 9 million jobs shipped overseas for cheaper labor that translates to higher profit margins for those "struggling businessmen".
  
  Most businessmen don't lack for effort. They fail because they don't execute well either in goods or services or make strategic mistakes about location of business or misjudge the other competition. And , the incomes are not well known by the public of you poor struggling businessmen. I have both relatives & friends who run small businesses and CLEAR $250K, $300K, $400K. I know self working businessmen who actually struggle but clear over $100k. The classic of businessmen is that they try to cover their income with "horror" stories of taxes, govt oversite,etc. Lots of D businessmen exist and cope quite well with those "problems" that the R businessmen spend hours each day LYING about and plotting with their party to remove oversite protecting us from their fraud & abuse in the pursuit of more profit or scamming the public about their poor tax problem.. The act is old and folks are wise to your scams.
• queencitybuckeye

  "used to run a business" = failure. You've either admitted to not knowing how to run a business or you are a liar.
• queencitybuckeye

  There are a lot of functional illiterates on this board claiming to have their own business.
• fish82

  

  Paladin;436692 wrote:All done ? Heard sob stories before. Some businessmen are to be commended. But frankly, heres the facts of life ( and we used to run a business, so I've rubbed elbows with you "honest" gentlemen )-- a business is run FOR PROFIT. And theres nothing wrong with that. People are hired to HELP you MAKE THAT PROFIT. They are often also hired to relieve you of the TIME required to run a business. In short, the only reason people are hired is to increase profits , make more money or give you time you don't have to be on the job. Now if you wanna pat yourself on the back about being great humanitarians, I'll just recount the 9 million jobs shipped overseas for cheaper labor that translates to higher profit margins for those "struggling businessmen".
  
  Most businessmen don't lack for effort. They fail because they don't execute well either in goods or services or make strategic mistakes about location of business or misjudge the other competition. And , the incomes are not well known by the public of you poor struggling businessmen. I have both relatives & friends who run small businesses and CLEAR $250K, $300K, $400K. I know self working businessmen who actually struggle but clear over $100k. The classic of businessmen is that they try to cover their income with "horror" stories of taxes, govt oversite,etc. Lots of D businessmen exist and cope quite well with those "problems" that the R businessmen spend hours each day LYING about and plotting with their party to remove oversite protecting us from their fraud & abuse in the pursuit of more profit or scamming the public about their poor tax problem.. The act is old and folks are wise to your scams.

  
  Cool story, bro. :rolleyes:
• general94

  I like that one too. So, let me get this straight.
  
  some profits = good as long as the Libs don't think you are making an "excessive profit" because then it will be confiscated and given to an unproductive member of society
  
  increase in profits = always bad, means you are screwing someone.
  
  Republican Business Owners = pieces of shit that should be executed
  
  Democratic Business Owners = endangered species, pillars of the community, would never dream of cheating on their taxes, or screwing anybody like those evil Republican bastards do.
  
  Federal Governmnent = God, Jesus Christ, Allah, Buddah, Jehovah
• isadore

  ^^^^^^
  yes those unproductive members of sociiety, the old, the handicapped, the children, the damned parasites. why don't they just die and decrease the excess population. although their might be a place for those six year olds on the assembly line and in the coal mines, no reason not to stimulate their work ethic at 10 cents an hours.
• Paladin

  ^^^^^^ Hilarious !!
  
  But a certain bit of truth
• majorspark

  

  Bigdogg;436539 wrote:Here are your fellow Republican teammates. If you think they give a shit about the middle class you are crazy.
  
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/29/AR2010072906345.html?hpid=topnews

  Lets not leave out our democrat teamates.
  http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2010-04-20-goldman-sachs-donations_N.htm
  
  Then there is Charlie Rangel, former chairman of the house ways and means committee. You know that committee where all tax law is born. Well he failed to declare all of his income and evaded the tax laws he helped doll out on the masses.
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/22/AR2010072204704.html
  
  And who is paying Charlie's legal bills? If you answerd corporate and union PACs and lobbyists, you would be correct. Right out of his campaign cash. Will this champion of the middle class go to jai? Nope. Will he be kicked out of office? Unlikely. Charlie will get a slap on the wrist. And who will he owe his job?
  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/K-Street-goes-to-the-defense-of-Charlie-Rangel-1004040-99363214.html
  
  Oh and lets not forget John "F-ing" Kerry. He docks his yacht in Rhode Island in order to avoid paying roughly $500,000 in taxes in his home state. It appears though now that this has come out in the press, he may be having a change of heart.
  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/23/john-kerry-saves-500000-b_n_656985.html
  
  I will tell you what most of these clowns give a shit about. Preserving their political power and enriching themselves.
• general94

  isadore;436824 wrote:^^^^^^
  yes those unproductive members of sociiety, the old, the handicapped, the children, the damned parasites. why don't they just die and decrease the excess population. although their might be a place for those six year olds on the assembly line and in the coal mines, no reason not to stimulate their work ethic at 10 cents an hours.

  
  You surely don't think I am referring to the above mentioned people as unproductive. Should I be more specific?
  
  unproductive members of society = ADULTS who ARE of age and capable of working (or producing) but choose not to, and live their life sucking off the government tit.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  And I get frustrated and wonder why the democratic party is where it is today, and makes the choices that they do...
• majorspark

  

  general94;436908 wrote:You surely don't think I am referring to the above mentioned people as unproductive. Should I be more specific?
  
  unproductive members of society = ADULTS who ARE of age and capable of working (or producing) but choose not to, and live their life sucking off the government tit.

  He knows. Its called political demagoguery.
• general94

  Just remember majorspark. Those poor destitute Dumbocrats you talk about are for the "working man" John Kerry has a yacht???? GASP!!!! Surely he must donate it on the weekends so all of the "working people" he represents get a chance to be on something bigger than a 14ft. fishing boat. Come on John, spread the wealth a bit.
• sjmvsfscs08

  general94;436908 wrote:unproductive members of society = ADULTS who ARE of age and capable of working (or producing) but choose not to, and live their life sucking off the government tit.

  
  I coached football and track at an inner-city school last year. So few kids' parents had jobs it was insane. Now I come from a family that didn't have financial constraints. My dad owned a pavement company, my mom was a school administrator and owned a company and an industrial park, my sister owned an organic farm, etc., so I was rather oblivious people could live without hard work and sacrifice. I met a society, if you will, of people who literally lived off the government. Not the "oh shit the times are rough I need temporary assistance," it's the "I want to trade my food stamps for cocaine" lifestyle; and it was deplorable. I'd have to drive around the ghetto at 6:00am picking kids up for track meets and there would be families with 4 kids and the AC turned on to 62 degrees and what satellite on the roof and xboxs and LCD televisions. I know how much that cost. Literally all of their stuff came from money from the government. These people actually had a mindset that the government owed them stuff. I can't help but think of JFK's great quote, "My fellow Americans: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." These people don't have a fucking clue. I would walk through the hallways and see 3-4 pregnant girls and the principal would say "yeah, they get pregnant and try to convince the government their baby is retarded so they get a bigger check."
  
  Fucking sick. If you people think Republicans hate the poor, you're just wrong. I help the poor more often than plenty of the fucks on Capitol hill. I simply ask that, when handing out freebies to the poor it is done with the mindset of Luke 12:48, "to whom much is given, much will be expected." If you're on welfare, it should be uncomfortable and you should be working to get off it. Drug test their asses ad nauseum too.
  
  America has become weak; too many politicians are willing to appease for votes. It's disgusting.