The Shrinking Middle Class and Perhaps a Manic Appeal to my Conservative Friends.

• HitsRus

  

  I'll just recount the 9 million jobs shipped overseas for cheaper labor that translates to higher profit margins for those "struggling businessmen".

  First you say that business exists to make a profit and that there is nothing wrong with that....then you follow with the above quote. WELL, HELLO...thanks for making my point. It costs too much to make things here partly because of the government having its hands in everybody's pockets. IF you really owned a business, then you know I am 100% right when I say that government makes business an unpaid tax collector. The very act of hiring someone triggers employment taxes...costs that that business must pass on to its customers. They do not get paid or reimbursed for giving the government its cut. You might say that government and that politcal party who seeks to keep taxing is a modern day version of the the southern plantation slaveholder. Business is forced to work BY LAW without reimbursment, and a portion of the fruits of its labor is TAKEN. Meanwhile others are enslaved in a web of dependency from which their is little hope of escape. (just try----and we'll tax you!)
  
  Someday, when you have an epiphany, you'll realize that the crowning 'achievement' of the Democratic Party is a ponzi scheme. The biggest con of all. If the government was honest and was actually looking out for your best interests, it might have required you to withhold a portion of YOUR earnings for YOUR retirement in a qualified plan . Instead it TAKES a portion of YOUR earnings and GIVES IT TO SOMEONE ELSE. The 7%+ that is TAKEN from your earnings and the 7%+ that your employer matches doesn't go to YOUR retirement...it goes to SOMEONE ELSE. Is their a bigger lie?.... a more hideous deceit?
• IggyPride00

  

  it might have required you to withhold a portion of YOUR earnings for YOUR retirement in a qualified plan .

  "Qualified" is an interesting term. Many of the investment products that went bust the past five years were "AAA" rated and would have been considered "qualified" under any safety metric (hence the reason so many pension funds invested in them). Now we find out years later the fraud that was involved in them even though at the time they were considered the highest, safest quality.
  
  I hate that S.S has turned into a big government slush fund, but I don't disagree with the idea of people having a forced savings account that is not subject to the whims/speculation/manipulation of the market.
  
  Social Security itself has never been the problem, it is that the law was written to allow Democrats/Republicans to spend the surplus all these years that was the problem. Had that not happened, there would be no funding crisis anytime in the foreseeable future. It is because politicians couldn't help themselves but to put the surplus in the general fund to make deficits look smaller that it is having a crisis. People laughed at Al Gore's lock box, but he was on the money in that the money should never have been spent on anything other than benefit payouts.
  
  Social Security is not meant to be someone's entire retirement savings. It at least guarantees (through government force) that you set something aside that will not be subject to any volatility or loss of investment.
  
  If the American people didn't insist on electing crooked politicians who are irresponsible for it, there would be no funding crisis and it wouldn't be a big slush fund. We have ourselves to blame for that, not the Social Security program itself.
• BGFalcons82

  

  HitsRus;436994 wrote:The biggest con of all. If the government was honest and was actually looking out for your best interests, it might have required you to withhold a portion of YOUR earnings for YOUR retirement in a qualified plan . Instead it TAKES a portion of YOUR earnings and GIVES IT TO SOMEONE ELSE. The 7%+ that is TAKEN from your earnings and the 7%+ that your employer matches doesn't go to YOUR retirement...it goes to SOMEONE ELSE. Is their a bigger lie?.... a more hideous deceit?

  
  Not to nitpick here, but it's just 6.2% for Social Security, not 7%. Still a healthy sum.
  
  Imagine if you could keep 12.4% of what you earn in addition to your other 401(K), pension, and/or IRA's. Imagine how much that would be upon your retirement. Imagine if it was in YOUR lockbox and not Obama's. There will be a weaning process of epic proportions before too much longer, as the Ponzi scheme is destined for ultimate failure as it currently is set up.
• Jason Bourne

  

  I think most of us would agree that yes, while it does suck right now, a good number of us are alarmingly concerned about what our children and grandchildren will see. What kind of America will they be living in? To me, it is a frightening thing.
• IggyPride00

  

  Imagine if you could keep 12.4% of what you earn in addition to your other 401(K), pension, and/or IRA's. Imagine how much that would be upon your retirement.

  Imagine how much more epic the financial crisis would have been if many people's last line of defense (their S.S checks) had been subject to the market correction we saw where we lost %50 of its value in 6 months. The panic would be like nothing we've seen before, and would have made what was already a catastrophic situation even worse.
  
  I am a free market guy, but look no further than the devastation many pension funds have seen when they realized the "qualified" "AAA" assets they were buying that were supposed to be of the highest grade investment quality were shams that were constructed to fail. Had the entire nations retirement savings been subjected to that, it would have wrought levels of financial devastation the likes of which we haven't seen.
  
  There is a psychological benefit to seniors knowing that at least they have some security in their retirement that can't be quantified. Not having that would only exacerbate every financial crisis, and destabilize our economy and society even more during down turns. People lose sight of that far too often.
• queencitybuckeye

  IggyPride00;437022 wrote:It at least guarantees (through government force) that you set something aside that will not be subject to any volatility or loss of investment.
  

  
  Inflation guarantees a loss of investment.
• IggyPride00

  

  queencitybuckeye;437041 wrote:Inflation guarantees a loss of investment.

  
  Social Security benefits are adjusted every year to reflect the yearly change in the CPI. If inflation is rampant, the CPI will increase and in turn benefit payments will increase as well.
  
  In 1975 they started adjusting benefits to keep up with inflation.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  Will it be adjusted to keep up with the reality that no one under 40 will ever receive it?
  
  It is a ponzi scheme that young people are on the ass end of.
• believer

  

  isadore;436649 wrote:The American dream, make life more painful for the poor. Let them be homeless, without medical treatment, without food. Now that will be a motivator. Starving Ameicans, is that your dream for our country?

  I saw a couple of starving Americans at the supermarket today. They were lined-up at the checkout counter with a fistful of Food Stamps in-hand and 6 out-of-control starving kids in tow. Apparently that's their idea of the American dream.
  
  Starving Americans? Give me an example of an American who died of starvation in the past 50 years who starved because absolutely no assistance public or private was available to him.
• HitsRus

  

  Not to nitpick here, but it's just 6.2% for Social Security, not 7%. Still a healthy sum.

  
  
  yeah...I was including medicare too.
  
  Nobody said 'qualified' meant risky investments...could have been federally insured savings/CDs...the point is...it should be YOURS.
• IggyPride00

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;437058 wrote:Will it be adjusted to keep up with the reality that no one under 40 will ever receive it?
  
  It is a ponzi scheme that young people are on the ass end of.

  
  As I said earlier, it is our fault we elected and allowed crooked polticians to spend the almost 2.5 trillion dollars in surplus so far that was supposed to be earmarked for when the boomers retired and S.S was paying out more than it was taking in until the demographics caught back up.
  
  That is the problem right now. The S.S trust is going to start trying to redeem the IOU's the government wrote, and the money is not sitting in a bank account as it should be. Instead it would have to come out of general funds, which only makes deficit picture worse in the future.
  
  All of this was thought about ahead of time when it was fixed in the 80's, but our politicians just couldn't help themselves but to funnel the surplus back into general funds to justify new spending or tax cuts, based on whatever their political ideology was.
• majorspark

  

  IggyPride00;437040 wrote:Imagine how much more epic the financial crisis would have been if many people's last line of defense (their S.S checks) had been subject to the market correction we saw where we lost %50 of its value in 6 months. The panic would be like nothing we've seen before, and would have made what was already a catastrophic situation even worse.

  Imagine the crisis when SS runs out of money and has to demand more investment from the labor force. At some point they will refuse to invest anymore. All ponzi schemes have their end. When this one ends there will be hell to pay.
• IggyPride00

  

  Nobody said 'qualified' meant risky investments...could have been federally insured savings/CDs...the point is...it should be YOURS.

  My point was 5 years ago many of the investments that would have been considered bullet-proof in terms of safety turned out to be junk. It was only after they failed that we realized it. The unfortunate fact is that there is no way to guarantee safety without getting the government involved, which is the very problem many would like to avoid. That is the catch-22.
• IggyPride00

  

  majorspark;437076 wrote:Imagine the crisis when SS runs out of money and has to demand more investment from the labor force. At some point they will refuse to invest anymore. All ponzi schemes have their end. When this one ends there will be hell to pay.

  
  Maybe it will be the impetus to finally get the voting public to educate themselves about the bums they are electing and the lies they are allowing them to spew.
  
  Social Security will be bankrupt far sooner than it ever should have been because of our decision to allow our leaders to spend our Social Security money on things other than payee benefits.
  
  That is our fault, not the programs. When Clinton was telling us there was a government surplus, and Bush was using the fact as the basis for a massive tax cut, the reality was we were running a deficit. It showed a surplus because of the S.S surplus, which was done by design because everyone realized 30 years ago that our demographics would make it impossible to be a pay as you go program. The idea was (and it was correct) to build a massive surplus when the boomers were working to sustain the program in the leaner years when they weren't.
  
  Letting the Republicans and Democrats spend the surplus in new programs or use it as the basis for tax cuts knowing the money would be needed was never part of the deal. The problem is we are a public that does not want to get educated about our government, and the politicians know that.
  
  It is only because we are willfully ignorant as an electorate that this has been allowed to spiral into the problem it has become.
• QuakerOats

  HitsRus;436476 wrote:Well it really isn't that hard to see.....just follow the financial rewards. There are financial incentives to be rich. There are financial rewards to be poor. To be middle class is to be taxed and taxed and taxed.
  
  
  
  Save your anti business rhetoric. You obviously have no clue that a business owner is an unpaid tax collector for the government. With a gun to its head, and at great cost to itself and it's customers, it levies taxes upon its workers and it's products. It collects them, documents them, bundles them...and then ships them in a neat little package to Washington, Columbus and various taxing agencies, where it can be distributed to wherever votes need to be purchased. There is one politcal party that is particularly adept at this. It is the natural enemy of the bourgeoise. It's insidious goal is to tax the productive and redistribute it to the non productive. The more it can ensnare in its web of dependency, the better for the party. More dependence means more votes for itself. That its supporters would decry the 'shrinking middle class' underscores its deceptiveness, for its very policy is to eliminate it. Demonize the 'rich'....its good for votes.
  
  What happenned to the American dream? ....Work hard, so that you and your posterity will have a better life.
  Eh, work hard, so you can be taxed. Or don't work and the government will send you a check. Shouldn't it be a goal to be rich?....not easier to be poor?

  Right on, brother!
• QuakerOats

  majorspark;436420 wrote:Allow me to give you a little BS from a business owner's perspective. Both my parents were high school dropouts. They divorced when I was 10. I lived with my Dad. He was laid off from his job in the coal mines for a good portion of my high school years. He worked his ass off to keep us afloat. When I graduated high school he had nothing to give to me financially. I was on my own.
  
  In my first year of college I cleaned shitters in office buildings from 5pm to when I got done, usually between 11pm and 12pm, to limit the loans I needed to take to get through school. My 2nd year I took a full time night job in a factory to help pay my way through school. That 2nd year I worked full time and carried a full time schedule in college. Because of personal responsibilities the next few years I worked full time and cut my school back to part time. Except for a semester or two where I carried a full time school load out of necessity in order to meet a graduation goal. In all this I found a way to graduate with honors.
  
  Prior to graduation I was able to attain a promotion into the engineering department. They took me on as a jr draftsman. My wages were basically the same as when I worked on the floor. It was the mid 90's and I was making less than 25k. I lost the OT but gained experience.
  
  I tried to get financial assistance for my education from my place of employment but they refused. The engineering manager was sympathetic and allowed me to slip away one semester to catch a class three times a week so I could finish up and meet my graduation requirements. He knew I would work extra hours to catch up. I never let the man down. I can't thank him enough.
  
  Once I gained experience in the manufacturing environment the entrepreneurial spirit in me began to flourish. I found an idea and risked my personal and family's capital to pursue it. It became a hellish experience for my family and myself at times.
  
  I have worked at times for nearly 40 hours strait to get orders out (not all physical). Do any of the bureaucrats in Washington know what that is like? Does anyone know what happens to your body when you push it to that extreme? Your body will shut you down. You lose your mental capacity. When your body shuts down you will drop right where you are at. I have curled up many times on my shop floor right on top of my product.
  
  Along the way I provided jobs for people. During hard times at the beginning I paid their wages out of my own personal funds. Several times my wife had to take the walk of shame at the grocery store because the funds were not available on the debit card. Not easy on a marriage. I sat in front of a bankruptcy lawyer contemplating my failure.
  
  I refused to declare bankruptcy. I refused to accept failure. Today my business generates profit. All my debts are paid, business and personal (except for my house and a small personal loan).
  
  The very idea that some of my fellow countrymen would not categorize me as a "working" American because I have achieved some level of success or that I would attempt to BS the world with garbage because of my political ideology makes me want to puke.

  
  Only those who have gone through hell and back can appreciate this ....... thanks for posting this and God Bless always.
• Jason Bourne

  

  MajorSpark: After reading a host of your posts, I think I can safely say we don't see eye to eye on everything. But that last quoted text from QuakerOats sums up why I am able to look past the disagreements and move ahead either beside or behind you. It's that kind of spirit that made this country what it was. And by God, what it will be. Right now, I see something different by a whole bunch of "leaders".
• isadore

  believer;437066 wrote:I saw a couple of starving Americans at the supermarket today. They were lined-up at the checkout counter with a fistful of Food Stamps in-hand and 6 out-of-control starving kids in tow. Apparently that's their idea of the American dream.
  
  Starving Americans? Give me an example of an American who died of starvation in the past 50 years who starved because absolutely no assistance public or private was available to him.

  The safety net put in place over the years has prevented that starvation you so long to see. If you and the General get your way and that safety net is cut, you will get your wish.
• isadore

  general94;436908 wrote:You surely don't think I am referring to the above mentioned people as unproductive. Should I be more specific?
  
  unproductive members of society = ADULTS who ARE of age and capable of working (or producing) but choose not to, and live their life sucking off the government tit.

  so it is not children, it is not old people, it is not the handicapped. Is it the millions of Americans who had their livelihood destroyed by strutural and cyclical trends in our economy. Who now find it impossible to find employment that will pay them at a level to properly support their families. No more unemployment benefits for these "unproductive members of our society sucking off the government tit." We will fix their wagons, a little starvation makes an excellent motivator.
• Con_Alma

  IggyPride00;437022 wrote:"Qualified" is an interesting term. Many of the investment products that went bust the past five years were "AAA" rated and would have been considered "qualified" under any safety metric (hence the reason so many pension funds invested in them). Now we find out years later the fraud that was involved in them even though at the time they were considered the highest, safest quality.
  ...

  When it comes to investment assets 'qualified' and "non-qualified" are generally used to indicate tax deferred or taxable.
  
  Qualified retirement plans are tax deferred retirement assets.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  isadore;437159 wrote:The safety net put in place over the years has prevented that starvation you so long to see. If you and the General get your way and that safety net is cut, you will get your wish.

  
  Isa,
  
  I think you are underestimating the American people in general.
• isadore

  CB I am not underestimating the American people.I believe the majority of them have compassion for their fellow citizens who are in need. There are several on this thread who do not have that same compassion. Their hearts only bleed for themselves and for the travails of the long oppressed wealthy of America.
• general94

  Funny, you actually know nothing about me, but if you want to turn this thread into a personal attack because I have a different political perspective than you, then more power to you. I would expect nothing less from a Liberal who blames society, corporations, and any other bogeyman you can create for the sad state of our country. God forbid we should tell people to look in the mirror. I am far from being rich. I am as middle class as they come, like my parents, grandparents, and everybody else in my immediate and extended family. My only claim to fame is that I was raised with a very strong work ethic, and I am proud to say I have worked my ass off to get where I'm at. I live comfortably because my wife and I choose to get up everyday and go to work and try to do our best for our employer. And you know what? we have both advanced in our respective companies to pretty stable jobs. Not to bad for two people that only have a little more than a high school education.
  
  Unlike you, I do not believe compassion comes in the form of a government check. Why do we still have so much poverty if these great social programs worked? Hell, using your logic LBJ's "Great Society" should have ended poverty 45 years ago. Why is spreading misery around equally considered compassionate?
• cbus4life

  Major, God bless, and you as well General94.
  
  But, don't forget, thousands upon thousands of those on the "left" have done the same thing and are doing the same thing as you folks have done.
  
  Resist the urge to generalize and throw all of us into one "lazy" group.
  
  I take pride in what i've done and accomplished and worked for throughout my life, and have always prided myself on my work ethic.
  
  And i'm also quite far to the left, on the political spectrum.
  
  Both sides have great people who work hard and believe in the American dream and all that. No side has a monopoly on that.
  
  Please don't think we all believe and act as Isa and Gibby.
• HitsRus

  

  The wealthy are not oppressed, but they do provide jobs. Ever get a job from a poor man? They also spend money which provides jobs. Go ahead and tax them...they won't haveas much money to spend so some working class guy gets laid off because not so many people are buying the product he makes. Get it thru your head that it's always the middle class that suffers when taxes are raised...and it doesn't matter who it is levied upon.