posted by justincredible

But, in your opinion, if heroin were legalized, these good, law-abiding citizens are going to rush to the store to try it?

No. I believe many would abstain as it's engrained to not do so.

But I do believe down the road it would set up more people to do as whom didn't grow upwith it being illegal.

About prohibition......doesn't work as when you take away somethinf thatwas legal it would be a disaster.

With that said though.....likely less societal problems if alcohol had never been invented.   Alcoholics like sportslady would be a disaster but overall society woild be better without drugs..and alcohol.

For those that might disagree, here is a little thought experiment. Which scenario is preferable?

Scenario 1:

Heroin is illegal, with a major stigma attached to its use/abuse. Bob Addict is hooked due to prescription opioids he was prescribed after surgery. Due to the legality of it, Bob is afraid to seek help as he fears he'll go to prison. With the rising cost of opioids he's moved on to heroin, bought from a shady dealer (that doesn't card, by the way) and laced with who knows what. First responders may or may not be exposed to incredibly dangerous substances like fentanyl when responding to overdoses.

Scenario 2:

Heroin is legal. While the stigma might still be there, it's greatly reduced, and those addicted aren't afraid of going to prison while attempting to seek help. Clinics are available to administer pure, medical grade heroin with a plan to wean the user off of it. The need for shady dealers is greatly reduced. The danger of a substance like fentanyl is greatly reduced. First responders see reduced risks.

posted by justincredible

Scenario 2:

Heroin is legal. While the stigma might still be there, it's greatly reduced, and those addicted aren't afraid of going to prison while attempting to seek help. Clinics are available to administer pure, medical grade heroin with a plan to wean the user off of it. The need for shady dealers is greatly reduced. The danger of a substance like fentanyl is greatly reduced. First responders see reduced risks.

Uhhh... If heroin is legal, why wouldn't opiates in general be legal? I'm not aguing that I dont agree with you. just sayin...

posted by justincredible

For those that might disagree, here is a little thought experiment. Which scenario is preferable?

Scenario 1:

Heroin is illegal, with a major stigma attached to its use/abuse. Bob Addict is hooked due to prescription opioids he was prescribed after surgery. Due to the legality of it, Bob is afraid to seek help as he fears he'll go to prison. With the rising cost of opioids he's moved on to heroin, bought from a shady dealer (that doesn't card, by the way) and laced with who knows what. First responders may or may not be exposed to incredibly dangerous substances like fentanyl when responding to overdoses.

Scenario 2:

Heroin is legal. While the stigma might still be there, it's greatly reduced, and those addicted aren't afraid of going to prison while attempting to seek help. Clinics are available to administer pure, medical grade heroin with a plan to wean the user off of it. The need for shady dealers is greatly reduced. The danger of a substance like fentanyl is greatly reduced. First responders see reduced risks.

I'm on board with the latter part of your second option for treatments but if it's legal why woild they be going to prison?  Cornfused a bit.

posted by salto

They may be "racist" by your belief but they are not hate groups, unlike many white "racist" groups.

 

It's not about belief. Any time that you segregate you or other people by color/ethnicity, it's a racist maneuver. 

posted by justincredible

Scenario 2:

Heroin is legal. While the stigma might still be there, it's greatly reduced, and those addicted aren't afraid of going to prison while attempting to seek help. Clinics are available to administer pure, medical grade heroin with a plan to wean the user off of it. The need for shady dealers is greatly reduced. The danger of a substance like fentanyl is greatly reduced. First responders see reduced risks.

We already have methadone clinics. And the users don't go to prison, just because they're addicted.

posted by thavoice

I'm on board with the latter part of your second option for treatments but if it's legal why woild they be going to prison?  Cornfused a bit.

It's legal, so there are no fears of prison time. Is my wording wrong?

posted by CenterBHSFan

We already have methadone clinics. And the users don't go to prison, just because they're addicted.

I guess I knew these existed, but didn't connect them together. Perhaps my scenarios need work, but |'m still of the opinion that legalizing it:

1. Will not increase use.
2. Will reduce the stigma associated with it, making it more likely those addicted will seek help.
3. Will make the jobs of first responders a little bit safer.
4. Will decrease the potential profit for dealers, making it a less desirable line of work.

posted by Devils Advocate

Uhhh... If heroin is legal, why wouldn't opiates in general be legal? I'm not aguing that I dont agree with you. just sayin...

I'm not sure the legality of opiates in general changes anything I've said. They are legal (with prescription) now, right? That wouldn't change.

posted by justincredible

It's legal, so there are no fears of prison time. Is my wording wrong?

 

No.  I'm just retarded.

In a perfect world maybe but those hooked generally don't have the most coherent mind. They can get help now for their addictions but the problem is most dont.  

posted by thavoice

No.  I'm just retarded.

In a perfect world maybe but those hooked generally don't have the most coherent mind. They can get help now for their addictions but the problem is most dont.  

I agree that, if it were legalized, some still wouldn't get help. And I'm not saying this is going to completely solve the crisis. But it's certainly going to improve the situation.

posted by justincredible

I agree that, if it were legalized, some still wouldn't get help. And I'm not saying this is going to completely solve the crisis. But it's certainly going to improve the situation.

I don't know man. 

I think down the road usage increases because it is legal.  Again, likely not people like us who have grown up with it illegal but down the road.

posted by thavoice

I don't know man. 

I think down the road usage increases because it is legal.  Again, likely not people like us who have grown up with it illegal but down the road.

In my scenario, where it's legal, that doesn't mean you can just buy a vial of heroin in a vending machine or over-the-counter at CVS. 

posted by justincredible

I agree that, if it were legalized, some still wouldn't get help. And I'm not saying this is going to completely solve the crisis. But it's certainly going to improve the situation.

I agree.  The war on drugs has not done much good for us except to keep our prisons full.  Most of the "crime" associated with the drug trade is around the manufacturing and distribution.  Taking those things away from criminals would be huge.  It doesn't condone drug abuse, just like alcohol being legal doesn't mean alcoholism is the goal for everyone.  But trying to stop people who are determined to put drugs into their bodies is an exercise in futility.  

posted by iclfan2

Well good thing there aren't white racist groups in congress. 

A racist is our countries President, which is even worse.  

posted by Spock

The US apends about 80% of education revenue on the bottom 20% of students.  After JH.....a lot of these kids should be pushed in vocational areas.  College isn't for everyone.

Trade/skill schools are way undervalued.    

posted by salto

A racist is our countries President, which is even worse.  

Obama hasn't been president for over a year now.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Reruns of Brady Bunch >>> Winter Olympics

AC/DC should have stopped in 1995

Rolling Stones should have stopped in 1985

The Jerky Boys are kind of stupid except for the very first time you hear them.  That first listen is possibly the hardest laughing I've ever done.

 

"Pablo honey, come to Florida!"

posted by justincredible

Scenario 2:

Heroin is legal. While the stigma might still be there, it's greatly reduced, and those addicted aren't afraid of going to prison while attempting to seek help. Clinics are available to administer pure, medical grade heroin with a plan to wean the user off of it. The need for shady dealers is greatly reduced. The danger of a substance like fentanyl is greatly reduced. First responders see reduced risks.

I'm not convinced the thought of jail time is deterring a lot of people from getting help, but who can say for sure. I'd guess that addicts don't seek out help because: A) costs B) don't think they can be fixed C) don't want to be fixed. 

It's not uncommon for someone to overdose and require intervention from the police, first responders, or even being admitted to the hospital -- only to do it all over again repeatedly, sometimes within the same day. 

But I do agree the system isn't working, and legalizing marijuana may help. 

posted by salto

Trade/skill schools are way undervalued.    

Seriously.  All these mediocre people getting mediocre business degrees to make $30k a year.....meanwhile a guy goes and learns to be a plumber, makes $75 an hour with no student debt.

posted by friendfromlowry

I'm not convinced the thought of jail time is deterring a lot of people from getting help, but who can say for sure. I'd guess that addicts don't seek out help because: A) costs B) don't think they can be fixed C) don't want to be fixed. 

You're right, jail probably doesn't factor in to the equation for a lot of people. I'll agree with cost being a big factor. If we diverted every dollar we are currently spending on the drug war into treatment facilities we would all but eliminate the opioid issue. But we don't, because we're afraid of what someone might do using a drug the likely already use regardless of its legal status.

posted by justincredible

I guess I knew these existed, but didn't connect them together. Perhaps my scenarios need work, but |'m still of the opinion that legalizing it:

1. Will not increase use.
2. Will reduce the stigma associated with it, making it more likely those addicted will seek help.
3. Will make the jobs of first responders a little bit safer.
4. Will decrease the potential profit for dealers, making it a less desirable line of work.

Except for #2, which I have sincere doubts about, I agree with your premise. 

But addiction will always happen. Just in the past 200 years we've had not only alcohol but other things such as opium, laudanum. Nowdays it can be anything, even something as innocuous as cell phones. We're addictive bastards.

Bugs was a tranny

posted by Laley23

Hear me out.

• Never got dirty on the streets like Avon, Marlo, Omar etc
• Went behind his bosses back to have D killed
• Fucked D girl after he had him killed
• Got taken to the woodshed on a Blackfoot deal for $250k by Clay Davis
• Ratted out Avon, who to be fair, was making bad choices. But the rating out stemmed more from Stringers business failing
• Tried to have Omar killed on Sunday Truce day

Like I said, it’s controversial, but he had some bitch ass moves, and all in all, was only smart in the operations of the game. No business sense. Only knew how to make it tough for cops to pin anything on him and Avon.

I thought he definitely had his flaws, major flaws.  Like he was in the wrong game.  I don't disagree with you, not sure I agree thou.

posted by justincredible

You're right, jail probably doesn't factor in to the equation for a lot of people. I'll agree with cost being a big factor. If we diverted every dollar we are currently spending on the drug war into treatment facilities we would all but eliminate the opioid issue. But we don't, because we're afraid of what someone might do using a drug the likely already use regardless of its legal status.

A lot of people don't seek help because they are afraid that they will lose custody of their children. If drugs were legalized, that threat would go away.