posted by justincredible

Your rights are inherent in your being. Doesn't matter if you believe in God or not. The point is, they absolutely CANNOT come from man, else they would not be rights. 

Maybe you should clarify things a bit for me because I'm either over-thinking or under-thinking things and with it being Sunday, I'm not overly keen on thinking at the moment.

Other than "living" what rights are inherent in my being? Way I see it, throughout history, ever since there have been -- I can't even say governments; just any sort of civilization with certain people/factions being leaders, those people have determined things like rights for their followers, typically using might of some sort to enforce their views. With the occasional rebellion when the people get fed up with how those leaders are doing their thing, potentially leading to new leaders and new standards for rights.

You can take our Constitution and all the rights to free speech, bearing arms and all that, but while a "god" might be invoked in that document, the rights therein were given by the people who had a hand in penning it. And when you look at that document over time, with the amendments made, it's obvious that through time, there have been different views having a say in changing things -- in particular the "no drinking" amendment followed by the "okay, drinking's cool again" one AND the ones that have opened up voting to people who couldn't initially.

I guess, in short, while I agree that we shouldn't depend on the shifting whims of government to tell us what our rights are, isn't that how it's been throughout history ever since the beginning of civilization? Or is there something really obvious that I'm missing in the point you're making due to over/under-thinking?

The Constitution did not, and does not, grant rights. It is meant to prevent government from infringing on our rights to life, liberty, and property. I would say that smart people during the Enlightenment period realized that human history up to that point had been brutal and oppressive and wanted to change course. Because, again, if government decides what rights you have, you do not have any. You have privileges that the government can decide to take away at any point for any reason they see fit. Totalitarianism is bad, in short.

posted by Heretic
while I agree that we shouldn't depend on the shifting whims of government to tell us what our rights are, isn't that how it's been throughout history ever since the beginning of civilization? Or is there something really obvious that I'm missing in the point you're making due to over/under-thinking?

I think inherently, at the foundation, is the concept that everyone has the right to do whatever they please, so long as that doesn't affect someone else.  Govt, when it carries out the will of the people, is concerned primarily with restricting or limiting rights which can be detrimental to either the individual or community.

For example, everyone has the right to breathe the air.  It's free and plentiful.  When you pollute my air, it becomes a potential issue.  But what if that pollution is to heat your home and cook your food?

More or less talking about "natural rights".  Now take property, for instance, as an unnatural right.  Although talking more about land than shelter.  IMO, simply owning land is not a productive or value added use that should impose a claim of ownership on the resources.  The deer that wanders onto your property is not really your deer, and someone who might kill that deer for food hasn't stolen something from you.  Not according to property rights, but I'm talking natural rights.

Laken Riley gets murdered in Georgia by an illegal immigrant (caught and released). No one gives a shit bc she isn’t black. Yet half the country cries about Saint George Floyd. Clowns. But y’all tell me the parties are the same. They aren’t.

posted by iclfan2

Laken Riley gets murdered in Georgia by an illegal immigrant (caught and released). No one gives a shit bc she isn’t black. Yet half the country cries about Saint George Floyd. Clowns. But y’all tell me the parties are the same. They aren’t.

Sure they are.  Anecdotal stories like this that get people outraged are tragic.  But the fact of the matter is you’ll be outraged by something else a year from now and will forget to give a shit about this.  In the meantime, neither party gives two fucks about what’s good for anyone.  They cater to the outrage you’re feeling in the moment only as a means to an end.  Donald Trump, Joe Biden - they want one thing: power.  They could give two shits about what they have to “believe” in or say to obtain it.  The respective things they happen to be saying today are simply things that have shown beneficial to their continual quest to lord power over others.

posted by justincredible

The Constitution did not, and does not, grant rights. It is meant to prevent government from infringing on our rights to life, liberty, and property. I would say that smart people during the Enlightenment period realized that human history up to that point had been brutal and oppressive and wanted to change course. Because, again, if government decides what rights you have, you do not have any. You have privileges that the government can decide to take away at any point for any reason they see fit. Totalitarianism is bad, in short.

However at some point “god” said black people did not qualify as real people which was decided by “men”? 

Who decides what god wants?

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Sure they are.  Anecdotal stories like this that get people outraged are tragic.  But the fact of the matter is you’ll be outraged by something else a year from now and will forget to give a shit about this.  In the meantime, neither party gives two fucks about what’s good for anyone.  They cater to the outrage you’re feeling in the moment only as a means to an end.  Donald Trump, Joe Biden - they want one thing: power.  They could give two shits about what they have to “believe” in or say to obtain it.  The respective things they happen to be saying today are simply things that have shown beneficial to their continual quest to lord power over others.

Shutting down the border is a simple difference. One did it, one didn’t. The numbers show this. 

posted by iclfan2

Shutting down the border is a simple difference. One did it, one didn’t. The numbers show this. 

He didn’t “shut it down” by any stretch.  No one in the history of man has been successful at that.  Trump threw more resources at it - I’ll give you that.  But like anything, these don’t occur in a vacuum.  It happened to the detriment of other things.  

If that’s the one issue that has you most upset, then by all means, vote for Trump.  He’ll do a better job addressing your grievance in this area than Biden will.  Of that i have no doubt. 

That is if you’re not murdered by a crazed illegal alien between now and Election Day  

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

He didn’t “shut it down” by any stretch.  No one in the history of man has been successful at that.  Trump threw more resources at it - I’ll give you that.  But like anything, these don’t occur in a vacuum.  It happened to the detriment of other things.  

If that’s the one issue that has you most upset, then by all means, vote for Trump.  He’ll do a better job addressing your grievance in this area than Biden will.  Of that i have no doubt. 

That is if you’re not murdered by a crazed illegal alien between now and Election Day  

I’ll let you know if I die before then. It’s a simple thing that can be minimized, and Biden didn’t  and then tried to blame the right (there is no detriment to blocking the border, but ok!). There are plenty of other reasons I won’t vote for that, but it’s easy shit like slowing the border that should have been done. I’m pretty sure you know what party is giving no bail or whatever in the name of equity too. 

posted by geeblock

Who decides what god wants?

The government, obviously.

posted by geeblock

However at some point “god” said black people did not qualify as real people which was decided by “men”? 

Is this a question or a statement?

Guys, the Declaration of Independence is good, actually. It's not that hard.

Don't believe in God? That's fine, I'm not sure I do either. I'm not an athiest, and I'll still go to church with family every few years, but I don't consider myself a Christian. I am open to the idea of a God. I'm also open to the idea of the simulation theory. Whatever.

If you think it's all a bunch of shit then think of you "Creator" as your mom, you family line, or just the fact that you exist in life and were thus "created" from nothing and now here you are. Were you born free or were you born a subject of the whims of your government? 

Are we seriously going to be bringing up slavery abolition incrementalism and the 2/3 compromise *again*?

Like those things weren't explained in minute detail countless times already?

Are we going to pretend that we don't have a clue again, all for the sake of appeasing feelings of events that none of us have personally lived through or witnessed in real time? 

Well, alright then. I suppose it won't hurt all that much and it will give this site a bump in traffic. 

In before " I don't know what you're talking about, I was just saying _______."

The point really has very little to do with slavery but rather that fact that the concept of “god” or religion in general is an interpretation from men. God will never talk to you, he didn’t write the bible, therefore all you have is the interpretation of god by men or government in this case. The Bible was translated many times by men so it really can’t be from god if that makes sense? 

At some point religion was used to say that black people were inferior was just one example of how men use god or religion for their own objectives. 

I will add what you wrote again as usual has very little to do with the conversation. Sometimes I wonder if you even actually read my posts or just google some response that is just slightly related. It’s not that I don’t understand what you are saying it’s just that it has nothing to do with the conversation or the point and I often don’t know why u said it 

I’m assuming a lot here but I’m going to assume that Justin hasn’t personally talked to god to know his wishes 

Yeah, that's enough of this conversation for me. Enjoy your day. 

Hmm ok I don’t think I said anything out of line or was saying anyone was right or wrong. Just stating from my perspective that what we know of god has came from men so it’s hard to be governed by god and not men 

Apparently, Christianity is the only religion.  Also, Jesus was a racist.

Learn something new every day.  Our children are in good hands.

posted by gut

Apparently, Christianity is the only religion.  Also, Jesus was a racist.

Learn something new every day.  Our children are in good hands.

Nailed it!

posted by iclfan2

Laken Riley gets murdered in Georgia by an illegal immigrant (caught and released). No one gives a shit bc she isn’t black. Yet half the country cries about Saint George Floyd. Clowns. But y’all tell me the parties are the same. They aren’t.

Nah, the other side just pretends a stupid rioting twat like that Babbitt chick was a "patriot" who was martyred for the cause or whatever.

posted by jmog

I think it sets a difficult precedent for sure, especially for cost/liability insurance for IVF facilities.

That being said...

The left argument for abortion is that it is ALWAYS the mother's choice, basically her choice if its a human/person or not. 

If  you don't buy this, that the woman chooses if the fetus is a human or not. Understand that in most states the woman can choose to kill the fetus (abortion) but if she WANTS the child and someone assaults her and the fetus dies, the assailant can be charged with homicide or manslaughter of the fetus.

So when the mother wants the fetus, it is counted as a human/person, when the mother doesn't want it, then it is not a human person.

In this Alabama case, the mother wanted those embryos, the IVF place (accident or negligence) allowed for them to be destroyed. So its the mother's choice if they were human/persons or not right?

I know that sounds like an asinine argument, but that just follows the "pro-choice" logic to the end.

I agree that the IVF facility should be held liable given this circumstance.

However, your last few sentences is what worries me. The issues on where life begins and when it is viable are religious, moral, ethical, and scientific questions. 

It is not a matter of government. I think many of here would agree with that. The last thing we want is one particular religious view dictating when life begins for all. 

posted by justincredible

Yeah, that's enough of this conversation for me. Enjoy your day. 

I got ya Justin. I agree with you know the foundation of this country and the concept of a higher power or God. 

The whole Christian National is taking one particular religious view and having it dominate over all others

That goes against what you are talking about. 

David Fench had a good take on it today. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/opinion/christian-nationalism.html?smid=nytcore-android-share