2011 Wayne County Athletic League Football

• thedemoralizer7

  Rittman
  
  Jesse Richards- Ohio Northern
  Adam Jones- Ohio Northern
  Brandon Bauman- Muskingum
  Trevor Sahagian- Westminster
• OQB

  

  ^Good stuff!
• Mr. Russell

  

  Interesting reading this week.
• tsst_fballfan

  

  O-Trap;965237 wrote:To what do you attribute this idea? Orrville's talent pool isn't that much deeper in number (male student count). Their players usually aren't grossly larger or faster. Is there some other X-factor about happening to grow up in the Orrville school district as opposed to a block away in the Smithville or Dalton school districts?
  
  If not, one might say coaching. However, I'd be interested in the defense for that as well, as every year seems to bring Orrville faithful saying they lost games they should have won ... even this year's fans seem to think their team has Jekyll/Hyde tendencies.
  
  I think that some of this notion stems from a mystique surrounding a local team that seems to do pretty well against schools in larger divisions. However, I think there's more parity between non-polar divisions than many think.
  
  Saying all that, Orrville does have a very proud tradition. They're easily the most playoff-seasoned team, historically. They've had legendary coaches, and they were even the program that built a starting OSU quarterback (regardless of where he spent the end of his HS career).
  
  I'm hoping for a good game, and I think that's what we're going to get.

  Simply my opinion. I have watched all of the teams over the years. Orrville in general (not always) plays better football over all. The pool size and coaching are close enough to make little difference, I agree. I cannot pin point a standout reason.
  
  Maybe this is a good recent example.
  
  06 Orrville 8-2 goes three rounds deep in playoffs
  09 Orrville 7-3 goes three rounds deep in playoffs
  10 Orrville 7-3 goes four rounds deep in playoffs
  03 Orrville 6-4 made the playoffs
  04 Orrville 7-3 made the playoffs
  05 Orrville 6-4 made the playoffs
  
  During a similar time period in the entire WCAL (not counting elite 10-0 or 9-1 teams) there were five 8-2 teams and two 7-3 teams that made the playoffs and zero 6-4 teams. Only two of the 8-2 teams made it two rounds deep. The average margin of loss of the seven WCAL playoff teams mentioned, almost 26 points.
  
  My point is that seemingly only the best WCAL teams (9-1, 10-0 teams) are really great teams. Whereas for example the 10 Orrville 7-3 team went four rounds deep in the playoffs including beating a 10-1 private school and a 12-0 Genoa school.
  
  Also should note the 02 Orrville team mentioned had a schedule of eight teams that were 6-4 or better including 3 playoff teams, it also included three D1 teams and three D2 teams. Probably the only WCAL teams that would have fared better that year with that schedule would have been the state runner-up Smithies and maybe the 9-1 Bulldogs. But again those were elite WCAL teams not average.
  
  I too am hoping for a good game and I think it should be but it is a top WCAL team and an average Orrville team. Again this is just my opinion having seen many games.
• tsst_fballfan

  

  O-Trap;965470 wrote:Smithville:
  Drew Beichler: Baldwin-Wallace
  Kevin Beichler: Walsh
  Kyle Kauffman: none that I know of, but I can't say whether he got offers
  Ben Olsen: Baldwin-Wallace
  Ryan Ferguson: Baldwin-Wallace
  Tommy Sines: Mount Union
  Seth Ream: Ohio University
  Gabe Middleton: College of Wooster (thought I believe he had an offer from Yale)
  I think Paul Kelby or Zach Douglass from this year's team has a BigTen D1 offer, but don't quote me.
  There are probably others I'm forgetting.
  (I know several of the above opted for smaller schools so they could play as underclassmen, as well as a bunch who were given offers, but opted not to play.)

  Mike Howell: D1 FCS Lehigh (but I think he transfered after his freshman year)
• RedRider1

  

  tsst_fballfan;965205 wrote:I agree but those would be the anomoly not the rule. Trust me there is nothing I would like to see more than a Rider-Smithie game every year in which the Green machine won. But the reality is that Orrville's average 6-4 to 8-2 teams are better than the top of the WCAL MOST years. This game will be a great example. This is an average at best Orrville team, in contrast this is probably one of the best Norwayne teams in the past two decades, but this game is still a toss up. If this were the 06 Rider team it would not be a close game. IMHO

  I disagree with the one bolded sentence...This is an above average Orrville team...at worst...with a chance to be one of the greats if they can make another deep run.
• THE4RINGZ

  

  tsst_fballfan;966311 wrote:Mike Howell: D1 FCS Lehigh (but I think he transfered after his freshman year)

  
  Michael Howell is now playing at ONU
• 5knots

  

  RedRider1;966319 wrote:I disagree with the one bolded sentence...This is an above average Orrville team...at worst...with a chance to be one of the greats if they can make another deep run.

  Interesting chatter and nice to see all the history of the WCAL fellas and where they played. Thanks for the info.
  
  I find it interesting that to be considered an above average Orrville team they need to make a deep playoff run or bust. tough crowd on here, haha. It's OK....I'm probably in that group as well.
• thePITman

  

  RedRider1;966319 wrote:I disagree with the one bolded sentence...This is an above average Orrville team...at worst...with a chance to be one of the greats if they can make another deep run.

  I was thinking the same thing.
• Diehard Rider Fan

  O-Trap;965237 wrote:To what do you attribute this idea? Orrville's talent pool isn't that much deeper in number (male student count). Their players usually aren't grossly larger or faster. Is there some other X-factor about happening to grow up in the Orrville school district as opposed to a block away in the Smithville or Dalton school districts?
  
  If not, one might say coaching. However, I'd be interested in the defense for that as well, as every year seems to bring Orrville faithful saying they lost games they should have won ... even this year's fans seem to think their team has Jekyll/Hyde tendencies.
  
  I think that some of this notion stems from a mystique surrounding a local team that seems to do pretty well against schools in larger divisions. However, I think there's more parity between non-polar divisions than many think.
  
  Saying all that, Orrville does have a very proud tradition. They're easily the most playoff-seasoned team, historically. They've had legendary coaches, and they were even the program that built a starting OSU quarterback (regardless of where he spent the end of his HS career).
  
  I'm hoping for a good game, and I think that's what we're going to get.

  All I would say regarding this is that if you think that the Red Rider program is just fortunate to have 3 of the right kind of coaches come along and/or we're good when we happen to have a good group of athletes come along then we are without a doubt the most blessed football program maybe anywhere. You don't become a top tier public school program in one of richest football states in the country by it just happening to fall into place. We have had excellent coaches, no question, but there is something very different about the work & preparation that starts at a very young age here that makes all the difference in the world. I'm not trying to get on a high horse here, I just want to make sure that its understood that the Riders aren't a perennial playoff team by happenstance.
• tsst_fballfan

  

  RedRider1;966319 wrote:I disagree with the one bolded sentence...This is an above average Orrville team...at worst...with a chance to be one of the greats if they can make another deep run.

  I have seen flashes of greatness but overall more inconsistant play this year. I will defer to your indepth knowledge of the team though if you think they are above average. It sounds like we are not far off in description though still hovering around average at present. Time will tell. BTW I like the blog.
  
  
  This will be a fun game for me as I have no dog in the fight so good football by either or both teams is a win for me. Good luck to both teams.
• O-Trap

  

  tsst_fballfan;966299 wrote:Simply my opinion. I have watched all of the teams over the years. Orrville in general (not always) plays better football over all. The pool size and coaching are close enough to make little difference, I agree. I cannot pin point a standout reason.

  
  
  This is sort of my reasoning for thinking that the parity is closer than many think. I've gotten to watch them as well over the years (other than the 1998 State Championship game, I started watching them when Zwick was a sophomore, so if you're going back further, I have no frame of reference), and I've even known many of their players. Good, hard-working kids, many of them were. Similar in size, athleticism, and attitude as my Smithies had always been.
  
  

  tsst_fballfan;966299 wrote:Maybe this is a good recent example.
  
  06 Orrville 8-2 goes three rounds deep in playoffs
  09 Orrville 7-3 goes three rounds deep in playoffs
  10 Orrville 7-3 goes four rounds deep in playoffs
  03 Orrville 6-4 made the playoffs
  04 Orrville 7-3 made the playoffs
  05 Orrville 6-4 made the playoffs
  
  During a similar time period in the entire WCAL (not counting elite 10-0 or 9-1 teams) there were five 8-2 teams and two 7-3 teams that made the playoffs and zero 6-4 teams. Only two of the 8-2 teams made it two rounds deep. The average margin of loss of the seven WCAL playoff teams mentioned, almost 26 points.

  
  
  Actually, the 2005 Dalton team made it in as the #5 seed at 6-4. (Link) I believe they also just missed at 5-5 in maybe 2006 (finished 9th).
  
  It makes sense, though, because Dalton is smaller than the rest of the league, and the first level points that the rest of the league garners are unusually high for a normal D6 team. Orrville benefits the same way. They, like Dalton, are the smallest fish in the pond, so they can stand to lose a few and still make the playoffs and be battle tested compared to the other like-sized schools once they get to the playoffs.
  
  I do get your point. It's just that with the Harbin system, it's really not that difficult to see the difference. A WCAL team that would be 9-1 could still have the same amount of talent and garner the same number of Harbin points if they went to a conference where several of the opponents are bigger (and are, therefore, scheduling larger opponents which benefits the second level of a small team who beats them).
  
  THAT is definitely one big, tangible advantage I'd give to Orrville (just like Dalton). They prepare well for the playoffs, because they play in a conference that is full of bigger schools. Bigger doesn't always mean better, of course, but a larger talent pool DOES tend to bring stiffer competition eventually (you'll get at least a couple good games). They can still make it in at 7-3 or even a little lower because of the second level points available to them.
  
  

  tsst_fballfan;966299 wrote:My point is that seemingly only the best WCAL teams (9-1, 10-0 teams) are really great teams. Whereas for example the 10 Orrville 7-3 team went four rounds deep in the playoffs including beating a 10-1 private school and a 12-0 Genoa school.

  
  
  You put this same Orrville team in the WCAL and they probably become one of those 10-0 or 9-1 teams. The strength of schedule changes, but not necessarily the team's talent.
  
  However, I say again that Orrville's schedule does, for the most part, equip them well in the playoffs.
  
  

  tsst_fballfan;966299 wrote: Also should note the 02 Orrville team mentioned had a schedule of eight teams that were 6-4 or better including 3 playoff teams, it also included three D1 teams and three D2 teams. Probably the only WCAL teams that would have fared better that year with that schedule would have been the state runner-up Smithies and maybe the 9-1 Bulldogs. But again those were elite WCAL teams not average.

  
  
  Sure, and that Orrville team probably would have been among them.
  
  I'm certainly not saying that Orrville would be an average team perennially. I think they would be one of the top programs. I don't think they're necessarily a leg above the entire WCAL on any given year, though. I guess that's my point.
  
  

  tsst_fballfan;966299 wrote: I too am hoping for a good game and I think it should be but it is a top WCAL team and an average Orrville team. Again this is just my opinion having seen many games.

  
  I've seen some average football teams out of Orrville. Average teams at Orrville don't make the playoffs at the #2 seed, because their schedule would cause an average Orrville team to lose more games than that.
  
  This isn't the best Orrville team I've ever seen or anything (that'd be the state champ team in 1998).
  

  tsst_fballfan;966311 wrote:Mike Howell: D1 FCS Lehigh (but I think he transfered after his freshman year)

  
  Ah, it's hard to keep track of everyone from Smithville who ends up going on to play elsewhere. Good for him!
  

  thePITman;966397 wrote:I was thinking the same thing.

  Yeah, same here.
• tsst_fballfan

  

  O-Trap;966646 wrote:This is sort of my reasoning for thinking that the parity is closer than many think. I've gotten to watch them as well over the years (other than the 1998 State Championship game, I started watching them when Zwick was a sophomore, so if you're going back further, I have no frame of reference), and I've even known many of their players. Good, hard-working kids, many of them were. Similar in size, athleticism, and attitude as my Smithies had always been.
  
  [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
  
  Actually, the 2005 Dalton team made it in as the #5 seed at 6-4. (Link) I believe they also just missed at 5-5 in maybe 2006 (finished 9th).
  
  It makes sense, though, because Dalton is smaller than the rest of the league, and the first level points that the rest of the league garners are unusually high for a normal D6 team. Orrville benefits the same way. They, like Dalton, are the smallest fish in the pond, so they can stand to lose a few and still make the playoffs and be battle tested compared to the other like-sized schools once they get to the playoffs.
  
  I do get your point. It's just that with the Harbin system, it's really not that difficult to see the difference. A WCAL team that would be 9-1 could still have the same amount of talent and garner the same number of Harbin points if they went to a conference where several of the opponents are bigger (and are, therefore, scheduling larger opponents which benefits the second level of a small team who beats them).
  
  THAT is definitely one big, tangible advantage I'd give to Orrville (just like Dalton). They prepare well for the playoffs, because they play in a conference that is full of bigger schools. Bigger doesn't always mean better, of course, but a larger talent pool DOES tend to bring stiffer competition eventually (you'll get at least a couple good games). They can still make it in at 7-3 or even a little lower because of the second level points available to them.
  
  [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
  
  You put this same Orrville team in the WCAL and they probably become one of those 10-0 or 9-1 teams. The strength of schedule changes, but not necessarily the team's talent.
  
  However, I say again that Orrville's schedule does, for the most part, equip them well in the playoffs.
  
  [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
  
  Sure, and that Orrville team probably would have been among them.
  
  I'm certainly not saying that Orrville would be an average team perennially. I think they would be one of the top programs. I don't think they're necessarily a leg above the entire WCAL on any given year, though. I guess that's my point.
  
  [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
  
  I've seen some average football teams out of Orrville. Average teams at Orrville don't make the playoffs at the #2 seed, because their schedule would cause an average Orrville team to lose more games than that.
  
  This isn't the best Orrville team I've ever seen or anything (that'd be the state champ team in 1998).
  
  
  
  Ah, it's hard to keep track of everyone from Smithville who ends up going on to play elsewhere. Good for him!
  
  
  
  Yeah, same here.

  Good points O-Trap!
• beverboy1

  thats why i like dalton schedule like orrville we play everyone bigger then us. very rare we play a div 6 school. that way we slip up a couple time we still have a shoot at the playoffs.
• Mr Miyagi

  

  For all you WCAL guys....if you see Miyagi at the game, he will have some of his brand new creation.." chicken jerky ".....stop by and ask for a sample and let Miyagi know what you think
  
  ]
• oldsmithie

  UMMMM! Chicken Jerky, sound like the perfect Holiday stocking stuffer! lol.
  I think Orrville figured things out years ago, I remember the Red Rider teams that were the first in the area to qualify for the playoffs. It was harder to get in playoffs, back in the days of A, AA, and AAA. Orrville has always tried to schedual up and take on top notch opponents, and when the Riders went to the spread offense, it made the playing field very level, when taking on a much bigger opponent! Orrville starts early in developing football talent and as you can see, it pays off! It is no accident, that, the Riders turn out very good QB's and wide recievers!
• thePITman

  

  oldsmithie;967504 wrote:It is no accident, that, the Riders turn out very good QB's and wide recievers!

  Or linebackers. Or DB's. Or running backs. Or coaches.
• OQB

  

  What really amazes me too is that we just started a tackle football program 2-3 years ago....before that it was strictly flag football. Now I know some of the kids, like myself went to either Wooster, Waynedale, or Rittman to play peewee, but for the most part the Orrville kids stayed to play flag at the Boys and Girls club.
• Diehard Rider Fan

  I know I'm old-school but I think the flag football program has proven to be more than adequate enough for kids that age.
• Riderfan

  I agree with Diehard about flag football...
• OQB

  

  Diehard Rider Fan;967945 wrote:I know I'm old-school but I think the flag football program has proven to be more than adequate enough for kids that age.

  Riderfan;967980 wrote:I agree with Diehard about flag football...

  
  It's obviously done a great job with getting the kids ready for Jr high ball...just think playing tackle allows you to focus on other things in jr high, instead of teaching entire game to kids. But I would agree the flag football program has been great for the kids.
• Old Rider

  

  ...and the flag football program is still in place at the OABGC and kids can choose between either tackle or flag.
• OQB

  

  Actually I believe the Flag football is for the younger kids (2nd, 3rd, 4th graders) 5th an 6th grade go to tackle.
• THE4RINGZ

  

  Yes 4th, 5th, and 6th graders ar enow playing full contact.
• BRF

  

  THE4RINGZ;968258 wrote:Yes 4th, 5th, and 6th graders ar enow playing full contact.

  Did you hit a bump in the road? :laugh: