Is it time for private schools to have theyre own playoffs in football

• Thinthickbigred

  skank;887380 wrote:Other notable, "traveling all-star teams",
  
  Ignatius
  St. Edward
  Moeller
  St. Xavier
  Elder
  Mooney
  Ursuline
  
  Notice a trend yet?

  Very true
• 5knots

  

  I apologize if it has been discussed already, but I am not reading through 105 pages to find out. Has anyone heard of the possible proposal of putting all the privates in their own region of the six divisions? In other words, each division would now have the state divided into 3 public regions and 1 private statewide region. Therefore, the final four every year would have 3 public and 1 private in each of the six divisions. I like the idea a lot. The argument would be travel especially for the privates, but it only really effects that first week of the playoffs...after that everything is a neutral site. thoughts anyone?
• Al Bundy

  5knots;887715 wrote:I apologize if it has been discussed already, but I am not reading through 105 pages to find out. Has anyone heard of the possible proposal of putting all the privates in their own region of the six divisions? In other words, each division would now have the state divided into 3 public regions and 1 private statewide region. Therefore, the final four every year would have 3 public and 1 private in each of the six divisions. I like the idea a lot. The argument would be travel especially for the privates, but it only really effects that first week of the playoffs...after that everything is a neutral site. thoughts anyone?

  How would that work in D1 where you have a very small number of private schools? If you kept it at 8 teams per region, would they all qualify for the playoffs?
• sherm03

  

  5knots;887715 wrote:I apologize if it has been discussed already, but I am not reading through 105 pages to find out. Has anyone heard of the possible proposal of putting all the privates in their own region of the six divisions? In other words, each division would now have the state divided into 3 public regions and 1 private statewide region. Therefore, the final four every year would have 3 public and 1 private in each of the six divisions. I like the idea a lot. The argument would be travel especially for the privates, but it only really effects that first week of the playoffs...after that everything is a neutral site. thoughts anyone?

  As has been said with just about every proposal...the private school people don't care. Put them wherever you want, and those kids will strap it up and play. If that's what it would take to get the whiners to quit whining, so be it.
  
  But personally, I don't like it. D3 has something like 15 private schools in the whole division. So that would mean over half of the private schools would make the playoffs every year in that division. Potentially, a team could have a losing record and make it into the playoffs. I don't like that one bit.
  
  As far as the travel, it would still be an issue. A regional final between Youngstown Mooney and Cincinnati Archbishop McNicholas would be a possibility, where teams and fans would be traveling 2 1/2 hours instead of a regional final between Youngstown Mooney and Steubenville where teams and fans would be traveling an hour tops.
  
  But traveling doesn't really affect the private schools anyways. Most private schools have to go all over the state to fill their schedule (and in most cases outside of the state and STILL don't fill the schedule) every year anyway. So doing that for the playoffs wouldn't be that big of a deal.
• 5knots

  

  My understanding is that they take the privates and divide them up from top to bottom. ends up being about a 16 team region in each division. so some that are not DI would obviously move up if their are truly only 8 right now.
• 5knots

  

  sherm03;887748 wrote:As has been said with just about every proposal...the private school people don't care. Put them wherever you want, and those kids will strap it up and play. If that's what it would take to get the whiners to quit whining, so be it.
  
  But personally, I don't like it. D3 has something like 15 private schools in the whole division. So that would mean over half of the private schools would make the playoffs every year in that division. Potentially, a team could have a losing record and make it into the playoffs. I don't like that one bit.
  
  As far as the travel, it would still be an issue. A regional final between Youngstown Mooney and Cincinnati Archbishop McNicholas would be a possibility, where teams and fans would be traveling 2 1/2 hours instead of a regional final between Youngstown Mooney and Steubenville where teams and fans would be traveling an hour tops.
  
  But traveling doesn't really affect the private schools anyways. Most private schools have to go all over the state to fill their schedule (and in most cases outside of the state and STILL don't fill the schedule) every year anyway. So doing that for the playoffs wouldn't be that big of a deal.

  So in this proposal Mooney and Big Red square off in the state semis or finals instead. I like it.
• 5knots

  

  Al Bundy;887743 wrote:How would that work in D1 where you have a very small number of private schools? If you kept it at 8 teams per region, would they all qualify for the playoffs?

  About 16 privates per region and 20-22 publics per region. I don't care who makes the private playoffs, I just like the idea they send 1 rep to the final four or about 25% which is closer to what they represent statewide.
• sherm03

  

  5knots;887772 wrote:My understanding is that they take the privates and divide them up from top to bottom. ends up being about a 16 team region in each division. so some that are not DI would obviously move up if their are truly only 8 right now.

  So this proposal is just a convoluted multiplier then?
  
  Gotcha.
• 5knots

  

  You say you just want to strap it up and play....you say if you want to be the best then beat the best....then when an idea comes up that seems very fair, you want to call it a multiplier? There are roughly 75-80 private schools. You divide them up into six divisions and each division sends their best to the final four. If you are the best then get thru your region and strap it up in the final four. Who's whining now?
• sherm03

  

  5knots;888184 wrote:You say you just want to strap it up and play....you say if you want to be the best then beat the best....then when an idea comes up that seems very fair, you want to call it a multiplier? There are roughly 75-80 private schools. You divide them up into six divisions and each division sends their best to the final four. If you are the best then get thru your region and strap it up in the final four. Who's whining now?

  I'm not whining at all. I just think it's funny that this is just a convoluted multiplier, and a way to segregate the private schools at the same time. It's humorous that the only thing people can come up with to "make things fair" is to take the best teams and move them up and out.
  
  Let's further your idea. Take all the statewide open enrollment teams, divide them up into six divisions, and give them their own region. Then take all the adjacent open enrollment schools and do the same. And then take the closed enrollment schools and they can have their own region too.
  
  Then when the same teams are still winning, and someone can complain and want things changed again.
• Al Bundy

  sherm03;888410 wrote:I'm not whining at all. I just think it's funny that this is just a convoluted multiplier, and a way to segregate the private schools at the same time. It's humorous that the only thing people can come up with to "make things fair" is to take the best teams and move them up and out.
  
  Let's further your idea. Take all the statewide open enrollment teams, divide them up into six divisions, and give them their own region. Then take all the adjacent open enrollment schools and do the same. And then take the closed enrollment schools and they can have their own region too.
  
  Then when the same teams are still winning, and someone can complain and want things changed again.

  Just go to 700 divisions and give everyone a trophy.
• sherm03

  

  Al Bundy;888514 wrote:Just go to 700 divisions and give everyone a trophy.

  Very true.
  
  I mean, if it's "fair" to put the private schools into their own region, wouldn't the thought process follow that statewide OE should have their own region and adjacent OE have their own region, and non-OE would have their own region?
  
  I guess I just never understood why people think private schools have this huge advantage because they "pull from all over," but OE schools do the exact same thing and that is not an issue.
• jake1971

  Just how prevalent is open enrollment anyway? From what I read on this thread it happens alot in this state. From what I understand a kid from Maria Stein Marion Local would rather play jacks or hopscotch rather than go to a different school, like St. Henry for example, and visa versa.
• Al Bundy

  jake1971;888617 wrote:Just how prevalent is open enrollment anyway? From what I read on this thread it happens alot in this state. From what I understand a kid from Maria Stein Marion Local would rather play jacks or hopscotch rather than go to a different school, like St. Henry for example, and visa versa.

  Around 75% of the districts in Ohio offer enrollment. In the big picture, the number of kids who switch schools with open enrollment to play football is very small. However, the number of kids who transfer to private to schools to play football is also extremely small. Most of the kids who play football at private schools have been at that private school their entire high school career. I am a fan of an open enrollment school. Over the years, we have had a few football players come in during their high school career who played football. In the Youngstown area people complain about Ursuline and Mooney getting transfers, but the overwhelming majority of the players have been at those schools their entire high school career. The two biggest whiners on this site are fans of open enrollment public high schools who have both accepted more transfers than Ursuline or Mooney.
• Sykotyk

  

  Al Bundy;888661 wrote:Around 75% of the districts in Ohio offer enrollment. In the big picture, the number of kids who switch schools with open enrollment to play football is very small. However, the number of kids who transfer to private to schools to play football is also extremely small. Most of the kids who play football at private schools have been at that private school their entire high school career. I am a fan of an open enrollment school. Over the years, we have had a few football players come in during their high school career who played football. In the Youngstown area people complain about Ursuline and Mooney getting transfers, but the overwhelming majority of the players have been at those schools their entire high school career. The two biggest whiners on this site are fans of open enrollment public high schools who have both accepted more transfers than Ursuline or Mooney.

  True, but if a star player transfers for the purpose of playing for a better team, it makes the new team markedly better and the prior team markedly worse. Secondly, if they're transferring to a smaller private school, the smaller private school will still stay small.
  
  A small public school can't just kick out the dead weight and keep the B or better students. They can't kick out delinquents. A private school has the luxury of only taking good students that add positively to the school and not detract from it. That right there is the advantage. It may not even be a conscious effort by the school to get an advantage. But it still provides an advantage.
  
  If any public school could just count their good students for enrollment and kick out the rest the schools would be much smaller and then the private advantage would be near non-existent. Students leave the bad public schools because the 'dead weight' as I call it have overrun that particular school. And the more the good students leave the worse the public school appears to be. Such as the situation in Youngstown. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. School is bad and gives out vouchers. The good students go to the private schools who want to. The bad students can't move because no school would want them to drag them down to their level. Therefore, the percentage of bad students at the public rises, necessitating even more 'corrective actions' against the public school. Meanwhile, the private school looks great because they skimmed off the best.
  
  That's why the big city schools _rarely_ do well compared to their catholic school neighbors in almost any aspect from academics, athletics, scholarships, GPA, college enrollment, etc. Cincinnati: the best schools are catholic, Columbus the best schools are catholic, Cleveland the best schools are catholic, Youngstown, the best schools are catholic. In the smaller communities with less crime, higher literacy, better available jobs, less blight, etc the catholic schools don't do as well compared to publics. The smaller the community, the better it tends to run a public school and more desire from the student body to stay in that school than jump to private. Also, in many places there isn't a reasonable option for a private school and the public is all you have without exorbitant travel.
  
  As for OE, it can bring better students in, but it can't get the bad students out. So, it's the regular enrollment in the city plus the few extra you can bring in from other districts. You're still not reducing your overall number unless you have extenuating circumstances that make your school the sinking ship that the good students are trying to flee. In which case it's unlikely that you'll be attracting any outside students to offset the total lost.
  
  
  
  I still say the best idea for counting enrollment:
  
  First, every multi-high school district must draw sub-district lines so the number of students in each high school is roughly equated with the number of ALL STUDENTS in the new sub-districts. Every single-high school district simply counts ALL STUDENTS in their district (per sport, it would be males in grades 9-11, etc).
  
  Second, every non-public school gets 'anchored' to the district or sub-district in which their physical high school building resides in.
  
  Third, each high school counts x1 each student they get from within their district or sub-district. Each high school counts x2 each student they get from outside their district or sub-district.
  
  Fourth, for each student in the district or sub-district that a school loses to ANY other school they -1x
  
  For instance:
  
  Sub-district A has 589 male students 9-11 this year assigned to High School A. Subtotal is 589 enrollment.
  Now, they bring in 58 out-of-sub-district students to add 58x2=116 to the total. Subtotal is now 705 enrollment.
  Now, 137 male students 9-11 do not attend High School A, but either attend private or another public elsewhere -1x137=-137. Total is now 568
  
  Catholic School B resides in Sub-district A which has 589 male students 9-11 this year assigned to High School A. Subtotal is 589.
  Now, they bring in 131 out-of-sub-district students to add 131x2=262 to the total. Subtotal is now 851.
  Now, of the 589, 473 students in the sub-district do not attend Catholic School B (either attending HS-A or an outside school), -1x473=-473. Total is now 378
  
  The breakdown is:
  
  HS-A has 452 in sub-district and 58 from outside the sub-district for a total of 510 actual students.
  CS-B has 116 in sub-district and 131 from outside the sub-district for a total of 247 atual students.
  
  Their enrollment total reflect where they're getting their students from. Whether they're the ones they're stuck with or ones they've attracted (i.e., good students from out of the district). If a catholic school truly is drawing from their minimal geographic base, their number won't rise. If they draw from all over, each student from far away counts x2. And this would go for any OE school equally as well. If you draw in 50 OE 9-11 male students, they count double for your enrollment total.
• sherm03

  

  Sykotyk,
  I really do like your proposal. I think that's the best one I've heard on the subject. I know you mentioned something similar to that before the season started, and I remembered liking it then, too. And I don't know one person who would be upset with that. The only problem that I would see coming from that proposal is that nothing so far affects D1, and that's what a lot of people have a problem with.
  
  I do have an issue with some of your points though. Now I'm not sure how the Cleveland, or Cincinnati high schools do it. But in Youngstown, there are no kids that are getting turned away. If a trouble-maker from a Youngstown city school gets a voucher, he WILL be at Mooney or Ursuline if he chose to. And as for not having to keep those kids, that's true. A private school can expel a student and not have to worry about seeing him again. However, I have never seen it happen. My parents graduated from Mooney, my brother graduated from Mooney, I graduated from Mooney, I have two sisters that graduated from Mooney, and a sister that is at Mooney now. During that time, not one single student was expelled from Mooney.
  
  I think the thoughts of how private schools are run and "controlled" are wildly exaggerated. People have to realize that these schools don't have the luxury of public tax dollars to fund the school. They rely on the tuition (or money they get from the voucher system) to pay salaries and keep the lights on. The choice to expel a student means no more money coming in for that student. So it's a decision that a lot of administrators don't want to make. On top of that, the mission of the Catholic schools is to educate ALL students. Teachers, counselors, and administrators will work with a problem student to try to straighten him out for a long period of time instead of just cutting him from the school at the first sign of trouble.
• skank

  

  Rocket08;887454 wrote:Ya
  
  All State Championship teams
  
  Jealous much?
  
  Your riddles are funny

  
  
  Yep, all state championship teams....I see you have figured out, "the trend".
• Al Bundy

  sherm03;888736 wrote:Sykotyk,
  I really do like your proposal. I think that's the best one I've heard on the subject. I know you mentioned something similar to that before the season started, and I remembered liking it then, too. And I don't know one person who would be upset with that. The only problem that I would see coming from that proposal is that nothing so far affects D1, and that's what a lot of people have a problem with.
  
  I do have an issue with some of your points though. Now I'm not sure how the Cleveland, or Cincinnati high schools do it. But in Youngstown, there are no kids that are getting turned away. If a trouble-maker from a Youngstown city school gets a voucher, he WILL be at Mooney or Ursuline if he chose to. And as for not having to keep those kids, that's true. A private school can expel a student and not have to worry about seeing him again. However, I have never seen it happen. My parents graduated from Mooney, my brother graduated from Mooney, I graduated from Mooney, I have two sisters that graduated from Mooney, and a sister that is at Mooney now. During that time, not one single student was expelled from Mooney.
  
  I think the thoughts of how private schools are run and "controlled" are wildly exaggerated. People have to realize that these schools don't have the luxury of public tax dollars to fund the school. They rely on the tuition (or money they get from the voucher system) to pay salaries and keep the lights on. The choice to expel a student means no more money coming in for that student. So it's a decision that a lot of administrators don't want to make. On top of that, the mission of the Catholic schools is to educate ALL students. Teachers, counselors, and administrators will work with a problem student to try to straighten him out for a long period of time instead of just cutting him from the school at the first sign of trouble.

  The turning away of students only occurs at schools that have reached their max (mostly D1 schools). Schools such as Ursuline and Mooney are nowhere near maxing out. Each of those schools had nearly 2000 students 40 years ago. Those schools would love to be in a position to be selective, but with the population of the Mahoning Valley school-age population continuing to decline it is extremely unlikely. People like to use a school such as Iggy that is in a position to turn students away and reach the false conclusion that every private school is in a position to do that. With small enrollments, neither Ursuline or Mooney is in a financial position to turn away students.
• Sykotyk

  

  Al Bundy;888873 wrote:The turning away of students only occurs at schools that have reached their max (mostly D1 schools). Schools such as Ursuline and Mooney are nowhere near maxing out. Each of those schools had nearly 2000 students 40 years ago. Those schools would love to be in a position to be selective, but with the population of the Mahoning Valley school-age population continuing to decline it is extremely unlikely. People like to use a school such as Iggy that is in a position to turn students away and reach the false conclusion that every private school is in a position to do that. With small enrollments, neither Ursuline or Mooney is in a financial position to turn away students.

  True, there are reasons a public will take a delinquent. But they only do so to a point. Because it will drag them down, eventually. They also benefit from the delinquents that have no inclination of ever applying for a voucher to attend Ursuline or Mooney. They're so disinterested in school, they don't care to better themselves. Those kids are still required to keep attending their public school. Sure, they can drop out (and probably will eventually), but they're still getting counted for them.
  
  As for D1, it helps the smaller schools in DI because as more teams get higher enrollment totals, the cut off will be higher and higher. Because the enrollment adjustments would be made prior to realignment, not after.
  
  Sykotyk
• aged jock

  "A small public school can't just kick out the dead weight and keep the B or better students. They can't kick out delinquents. A private school has the luxury of only taking good students that add positively to the school and not detract from it. That right there is the advantage. It may not even be a conscious effort by the school to get an advantage. But it still provides an advantage."
  
  Then change the public schools. Make them charge tuition and take whom they want to take and expel whom they want to expel. Public schools are set up that way. Privates are set up their way. Don't make the privates change just because the publics have their own mission and their own rules. If the publics want to forcibly make me pay for the kids in my area to go to school and the tradeoff is that they have to take everyone, that's fine - but it's their decision, not the private schools' decision.
  
  If I want to pay less and go to the gym paid for by my city, rather than LA Fitness, I have every right to do so. But in doing so I give up some benefits. The same for public schools. If I choose to go to LA Fitness and pay the freight, I should be able to get an experience worth the freight that I'm paying.
  
  America used to be a free country. The socialists (private school haters) are trying to turn it into their idea of "fairness". If you want shared misery (or shared mediocrity) then change everything to give the majority what they want. Why should we aspire to something better than the free schools?
• Rocket08

  It seems that many Public School apologists don't have a clue what the mission of their system (public education) is.
  
  From that gathering of students, we build an athletic competition. It's not the other way around. Public school's job is to educate kids. Complaining about the disinterested is a waste of time, it's part of the public school system
  
  I highly doubt that the complainers on here spend 1/100 of the time complaining about the conditions of their school system as they do the record of their football team
  
  And that's the real advantage that the private schools have
• aged jock

  skank;887380 wrote:Other notable, "traveling all-star teams",
  
  Ignatius
  St. Edward
  Moeller
  St. Xavier
  Elder
  Mooney
  Ursuline
  
  Notice a trend yet?

  Colerain
  Steubenville
  Coldwater
  Glenville
  Davidson
  Trotwood
  Massillon
  Princeton
  Western Reserve
  Upper Arlington
  Harding
  McKinley
  Mentor
  Wayne
  Maple Heights
  Ironton
  Big Walnut
  Licking Valley
  Buchtel
  Chagrin Falls
  Marion Local
  St. Henry
  Valley View
  Versailles
  
  Yeah, it's right before our eyes!
• Gardens35

  Fitch just hammered the Catholics. So there.
• Al Bundy

  Gardens35;889590 wrote:Fitch just hammered the Catholics. So there.

  Girard did too, but Girard has a lot of kids on their roster who are Catholic
• Thinthickbigred

  Im glad you consider a bunch of Steubenville kids all stars