Cavs/Bulls 4: The Death of Noah

• ytownfootball

  

  Lol...foot, we don't need him against Chicago.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  RedBlackAttack wrote:
  Do you really think that Z, Varejao, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, or JJ Hickson would do a better job than Shaq against Howard? I need you to answer that question.

  Hahahha...where you been RBA?
• Footwedge

  RedBlackAttack wrote:

  Footwedge wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote: Shaq was brought to Cleveland with Orlando in mind... Let's face it. Minimal production against the Bulls isn't much of a surprise, because they really don't have a real center for him to match up with. Shaq will be hugely important against the Magic, if that series comes off. His ability to go against Howard without forcing us to send an extra defender could be the difference in the series. He doesn't have to outplay Howard. All he has to do is make life a little more difficult for him and maybe force him into some early foul trouble.
  
  Orlando's success against Cleveland last year was based around the fact that the Cavs had no one on the roster who could even come close to matching up with Howard. This meant that we had to have two and three defenders around the basket at all times to make up for the times when Z was driven past or Varejao was overpowered. Thus, they had shooters wide open on the perimeter.
  
  When we didn't send those extra defenders and we stayed at home on their deadly shooters, Howard killed us. That will not happen this year. I'm not predicting an absolute victory over them if it is the ECF matchup, because Orlando is very good. But, they will not make it look as easy as they did last year. They will have to beat the Cavs by outplaying them, not by exploiting those huge matchup problems.

  LOL. Word for word from Danny Ferry and all the lemmings. Shaq has played poorly all year at both ends of the court. It's not his fault, he's just gone over the hill.
  
  If Shaq can't guard the weaker centers, how in the hell will be guard the best center?
  
  The Cavs can still win the title, but if and only if Brownie shitcans the Shaq on Howard nonsense.

  What an absurd point of view. Is Shaq the player that he was four years ago? No. Does he still matchup well with Howard? Yes.
  
  In fact, he is probably the best in the league at limiting Howard around the basket. Just because he has regressed as a player and he isn't what he was even during the Heat's run doesn't mean that he adds nothing of value.
  
  Do you really think that Z, Varejao, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, or JJ Hickson would do a better job than Shaq against Howard? I need you to answer that question.

  m
  The team will do a lot better when Hickson is on the court versus having Shaq on the court against the agic. Iit's a no brainer. Shaq is too slow and can't shoot anymore. Moreover, the team crawls to a standstill when they feed him the ball.
  
  It's a proven stat that then team does not perform as well with him on the court.
  
  Dwight Howard will destroy Shaq in the playoffs. The media frenzied "feel good story" that Shaq will stop Howard is a joke. Ain't happenin.
• RedBlackAttack

  

  SQ_Crazies wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote:
  Do you really think that Z, Varejao, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, or JJ Hickson would do a better job than Shaq against Howard? I need you to answer that question.

  Hahahha...where you been RBA?

  I'm always around, man.
  
  I asked this in the other thread, but no one responded... Is Skyhook still around?
• ytownfootball

  

  RedBlackAttack wrote:

  SQ_Crazies wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote:
  Do you really think that Z, Varejao, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, or JJ Hickson would do a better job than Shaq against Howard? I need you to answer that question.

  Hahahha...where you been RBA?

  I'm always around, man.
  
  I asked this in the other thread, but no one responded... Is Skyhook still around?

  He was...but I asked him point blank one day about why he just posted to be a dick when we all knew he had the ability to post intelligently on basketball and he just quit...haven't seen him since.
• RedBlackAttack

  

  Footwedge wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote:

  Footwedge wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote: Shaq was brought to Cleveland with Orlando in mind... Let's face it. Minimal production against the Bulls isn't much of a surprise, because they really don't have a real center for him to match up with. Shaq will be hugely important against the Magic, if that series comes off. His ability to go against Howard without forcing us to send an extra defender could be the difference in the series. He doesn't have to outplay Howard. All he has to do is make life a little more difficult for him and maybe force him into some early foul trouble.
  
  Orlando's success against Cleveland last year was based around the fact that the Cavs had no one on the roster who could even come close to matching up with Howard. This meant that we had to have two and three defenders around the basket at all times to make up for the times when Z was driven past or Varejao was overpowered. Thus, they had shooters wide open on the perimeter.
  
  When we didn't send those extra defenders and we stayed at home on their deadly shooters, Howard killed us. That will not happen this year. I'm not predicting an absolute victory over them if it is the ECF matchup, because Orlando is very good. But, they will not make it look as easy as they did last year. They will have to beat the Cavs by outplaying them, not by exploiting those huge matchup problems.

  LOL. Word for word from Danny Ferry and all the lemmings. Shaq has played poorly all year at both ends of the court. It's not his fault, he's just gone over the hill.
  
  If Shaq can't guard the weaker centers, how in the hell will be guard the best center?
  
  The Cavs can still win the title, but if and only if Brownie shitcans the Shaq on Howard nonsense.

  What an absurd point of view. Is Shaq the player that he was four years ago? No. Does he still matchup well with Howard? Yes.
  
  In fact, he is probably the best in the league at limiting Howard around the basket. Just because he has regressed as a player and he isn't what he was even during the Heat's run doesn't mean that he adds nothing of value.
  
  Do you really think that Z, Varejao, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, or JJ Hickson would do a better job than Shaq against Howard? I need you to answer that question.

  m
  The team will do a lot better when Hickson is on the court versus having Shaq on the court against the agic. Iit's a no brainer. Shaq is too slow and can't shoot anymore. Moreover, the team crawls to a standstill when they feed him the ball.
  
  It's a proven stat that then team does not perform as well with him on the court.
  
  Dwight Howard will destroy Shaq in the playoffs. The media frenzied "feel good story" that Shaq will stop Howard is a joke. Ain't happenin.

  The Cavs played a slow-it-down, halfcourt game long before Shaq showed up. That is Mike Brown's style and it is also the style of play that generally wins in the playoffs.
  
  Shaq could never 'shoot,' btw. He doesn't need to 'shoot.' The team has enough shooters and scorers.
  
  Howard is a center that relies heavily on his physical tools around the basket, so Shaq's limitations when he is pulled away from the basket will be a moot point. Literally all of Howard's production comes from within 5 feet of the basket.
  
  JJ Hickson CANNOT defend Howard. Neither can Z or Varejao. In fact, the guy with the most success defensively against DHo last year was Ben Wallace.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  That's what always frustrated me about him too. He added to the conversation when he wanted to, but for whatever reason sometimes he was just an epic moron.
• Footwedge

  Mr. 300 wrote: I think it's official. Footwedge has replaced me as the most hated man on Cavs threads.

  People just want to argue with me, even though the facts bear me out. I can pretty much guarantee you that most people reading this thread that are full blown Cav fans whole heartedly agree with me on this.
  
  They don't listen to the sugar coated media, but instead watch the games with a close eye and then confirm shaq's horror shows by visiting the box scores.
  
  The great news is...regarding the Cavs winning the title.... both our coach and Lebron agree with me on this subject....and have made the proper adjustments to give us the best chance to win.
  
  So when they bitch at me, they are by default, bitching at both Brownie and Lebron.
• ytownfootball

  

  He knows his shit, just chooses not to discuss shit with any amount of intelligence.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  Dude, problem is you said the facts supported your argument about Jamison as well. Your argument was "fact" based. We told you your facts were bullshit then and we're basically saying the same thing now. You post relevant stats and don't get why no one sees that. The thing is, we do see that--they are relevant, but we don't make the same mistake you do. Ignoring more important stats.
• RedBlackAttack

  

  ytownfootball wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote:

  SQ_Crazies wrote:

  RedBlackAttack wrote:
  Do you really think that Z, Varejao, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, or JJ Hickson would do a better job than Shaq against Howard? I need you to answer that question.

  Hahahha...where you been RBA?

  I'm always around, man.
  
  I asked this in the other thread, but no one responded... Is Skyhook still around?

  He was...but I asked him point blank one day about why he just posted to be a dick when we all knew he had the ability to post intelligently on basketball and he just quit...haven't seen him since.

  SQ_Crazies wrote: That's what always frustrated me about him too. He added to the conversation when he wanted to, but for whatever reason sometimes he was just an epic moron.

  Man... He and I had some epic confrontations on the old site. I was hoping that he was still around. If you are out there, Skyhook... Come back. I need someone to beat up on.
  
  Footwedge,
  I have no reason to disagree with you. I'm not a blind Cavaliers' fan. I realized the team's limitations last season and openly discussed them prior to our loss to the Magic when it seemed most Cleveland people were sold that we were going to win it all.
  
  I just think that you happen to be dead wrong on this particular issue and it will be proven to you. This isn't a case of me listening to and being brainwashed by the Cleveland media.
  
  I felt that Shaq was the answer to beating a Howard-led team before the trade was even made.
• se-alum

  

  Footwedge wrote:

  se-alum wrote:

  SQ_Crazies wrote: How do you expect him to be in the +20's like the other guys when he plays 17 minutes.
  
  Varejao didn't play well at all, was +14.
  
  Like I've always tried to tell you, +/- is a pointless stat on a one game basis. Noah had 21 and 20 and was -23. What does that say about your little theory?

  This is all that needs to be said about the ridiculous +/- stat.

  So Lebron having the best +/- for the year is irrelevant? Look, I agree it's not the best indicator for any particular game, but when the discrepancy is consistant throughout the whole season, then one can draw conclusions.
  
  Secondly, Shaq's fg numbers, free throw numbers, turnover numbers are also very poor. Are they also irrelevant?
  
  He's had his minutes slashed to the bone. Why is that?
  Happy that Brownie's the coach instead of the chatter posters.

  All it means is LeBron played on the best team in the regular season. There are way too many variables that go into +/-. So many different lineups involved, that it can hardly be a viable stat.
• ytownfootball

  

  Footwedge wrote:

  Mr. 300 wrote: I think it's official. Footwedge has replaced me as the most hated man on Cavs threads.

  People just want to argue with me, even though the facts bear me out. I can pretty much guarantee you that most people reading this thread that are full blown Cav fans whole heartedly agree with me on this.
  
  They don't listen to the sugar coated media, but instead watch the games with a close eye and then confirm shaq's horror shows by visiting the box scores.
  
  The great news is...regarding the Cavs winning the title.... both our coach and Lebron agree with me on this subject....and have made the proper adjustments to give us the best chance to win.
  
  So when they bitch at me, they are by default, bitching at both Brownie and Lebron.

  God you're fucking deluded. We agree the Shaq of today isn't the Shaq of four years ago. You insist that he isn't to further your notion that this years team isn't as good as last years. You've come to your senses on Jamigoat...but if you give in on Shaq...you're staring EPIC FAIL right in the face and you can't deal with that on some personal level.
  
  Get over it.
• devil1197

  Wedge, just like your facts against Jamison were supporting your argument?
  
  Its your fucking opinion that you are trying to pass off as facts.
  
  If you want to continue to think you're hot shit, take up my bet so we don't have to listen to your shit during the Finals.
• Footwedge

  RedBlackAttack wrote:
  
  
  
  The Cavs played a slow-it-down, halfcourt game long before Shaq showed up. That is Mike Brown's style and it is also the style of play that generally wins in the playoffs.

  The Cavs DO NOT play the samed way offensiveky when shaq's on the floor. I should stop right here...because obviously you don't pat very close attention. But I'll explain anyway. When Shaq's on the court, they dump it in to him almost every time down the court on the low bglock. It os slow, and percentage wise, not good basketball..and hurts our offense. Do we also dumo it down to JJ? How about Andy? No we don't. We run backscreens and cuts and high pick and rolls.
  
  Again...don't take my word for it...look up the numbers.
  

  Shaq could never 'shoot,' btw. He doesn't need to 'shoot.' The team has enough shooters and scorers.

  
  
  Never shoots? Gimme a break. He shoots a lot...and has been missing a lot. when he's on the court, the team is very ineffective on the offensive side of the court.
  

  Howard is a center that relies heavily on his physical tools around the basket, so Shaq's limitations when he is pulled away from the basket will be a moot point. Literally all of Howard's production comes from within 5 feet of the basket.

  
  

  Hickson CANNOT defend Howard. Neither can Z or Varejao. In fact, the guy with the most success defensively against DHo last year was Ben Wallace.

  Ben Wallace was a much better defender last year than Shaq is this year. And Wallace had his problems as well. Just because Shaq weighs a ton, doesn't mean shit, Howard will outquick him to the hole any time he wants.
  
  I'm not saying that JJ will stop him every time, but he will be a lot better than the turtle will be. And with Hickson on the court, the offense will not suffer nearly as much.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  Yeah because those numbers you wanted us to look up really show that Howard just got whatever he wanted against Shaq this year...and didn't last year against Ben Wallace....fail, again.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  Not to mention the fact that this is a team game, and Shaq's presence alone helps us defensively because he clogs the lane and it takes a great move to get around him because of his size. Helps our perimeter defenders rotate better because he can hold it down by himself. It's not all about stopping Dwight Howard. It's about beating the Magic.
• Footwedge

  ytownfootball wrote:

  Footwedge wrote:

  Mr. 300 wrote: I think it's official. Footwedge has replaced me as the most hated man on Cavs threads.

  People just want to argue with me, even though the facts bear me out. I can pretty much guarantee you that most people reading this thread that are full blown Cav fans whole heartedly agree with me on this.
  
  They don't listen to the sugar coated media, but instead watch the games with a close eye and then confirm shaq's horror shows by visiting the box scores.
  
  The great news is...regarding the Cavs winning the title.... both our coach and Lebron agree with me on this subject....and have made the proper adjustments to give us the best chance to win.
  
  So when they bitch at me, they are by default, bitching at both Brownie and Lebron.

  God you're fucking deluded. We agree the Shaq of today isn't the Shaq of four years ago. You insist that he isn't to further your notion that this years team isn't as good as last years. You've come to your senses on Jamigoat...but if you give in on Shaq...you're staring EPIC FAIL right in the face and you can't deal with that on some personal level.
  
  Get over it.

  Last year's team was slightly better than this year's team because of chemistry and overall performance. It's that simple. It doesn't mean that this team won't win it all. But Shaq's addition has not improved this team at all.
  
  The problem with you and the others here....you can't come to the realities of Shaq's poor numbers. The mirage of him "stopping Howard" is tough to swallow. Well too bad. Shaq has been a major disappointment in his play this year. Nobody thought he'd go over the hill like that.
  
  With that said, the Cavs can still win it all.....but they will do it without Shaq stinkin up the court. Both Brownie and LeBron have already figured it out...thank God.
• RedBlackAttack

  

  Footwedge wrote: The Cavs DO NOT play the samed way offensiveky when shaq's on the floor. I should stop right here...because obviously you don't pat very close attention.

  lol
  
  This f#cking guy.
  
  The Cavs will occasionally play a more up-tempo style just to change things up, but the halfcourt, slow-it-down game has been the Cavs' style for years and years... Basically since Mike Brown took over.
  
  In fact, this year, they play more up-tempo than in any year prior under Brown.
  

  Footwedge wrote:When Shaq's on the court, they dump it in to him almost every time down the court on the low bglock. It os slow, and percentage wise, not good basketball..and hurts our offense. Do we also dumo it down to JJ? How about Andy? No we don't. We run backscreens and cuts and high pick and rolls.

  We play through Shaq because he presents matchup problems and he is also an excellent passer. So, we give it to him in the post to force the defense to make a move. Either they come with the double and an extra body and then we move the ball to the open man or he will overpower smaller defenders one-on-one (as you saw against Noah in Game 1).
  
  We don't give the ball to Varejao or JJ in the post because neither of those guys are capable of creating their own shots, let alone creating shots for others.
  
  Hickson can be good when others set him up with easy layups or shots around the rim. Varejao is good on little back door cuts and getting second shots around the basket.
  
  But, both of those guys are incredibly limited offensively and neither of them have ANY semblance of a post game.
  
  

  Footwedge wrote:Again...don't take my word for it...look up the numbers.

  Ok... Let's look at the numbers.
  
  Shaq took seven shots today... SEVEN. And he made three of them.
  
  In Game 3, he took eight shots.
  
  In Game 2, he took FOUR shots.
  
  In Game 1, he took his series high of nine shots, but he also made five of those.
  
  Shoots every time down, you say? What game are you watching?
  

  He shoots a lot...and has been missing a lot.

  Wrong and wrong.
  
  

  Footwedge wrote:I'm not saying that JJ will stop him every time, but he will be a lot better than the turtle will be. And with Hickson on the court, the offense will not suffer nearly as much.

  Hickson is not nearly big enough or strong enough to defend Howard... Ever. That should be blatantly obvious to everyone and anyone.
• devil1197

  Foot, you taking the bet or no?
  
  I highly doubt you will since you are ignoring it.
• Footwedge

  SQ_Crazies wrote: Not to mention the fact that this is a team game, and Shaq's presence alone helps us defensively because he clogs the lane and it takes a great move to get around him because of his size. Helps our perimeter defenders rotate better because he can hold it down by himself. It's not all about stopping Dwight Howard. It's about beating the Magic.

  What an idiotic reply...no surprise there. JJ hickson has playrd much better help side dee than Shaq. Shaq can't move. Rose goes to the hole, and Shaq stands there watching layups.
  
  The +/- over the course of the year has shown that Shaq has been horrible. When the stats are that far eskewed, one has to be an idiot not to understand what's happening.
• ytownfootball

  

  I don't want anybody missing for the finals (if we get there) even if it is Wedge.
• RedBlackAttack

  

  Footwedge wrote:

  SQ_Crazies wrote: Not to mention the fact that this is a team game, and Shaq's presence alone helps us defensively because he clogs the lane and it takes a great move to get around him because of his size. Helps our perimeter defenders rotate better because he can hold it down by himself. It's not all about stopping Dwight Howard. It's about beating the Magic.

  What an idiotic reply...no surprise there. JJ hickson has playrd much better help side dee than Shaq. Shaq can't move. Rose goes to the hole, and Shaq stands there watching layups.
  
  The +/- over the course of the year has shown that Shaq has been horrible. When the stats are that far eskewed, one has to be an idiot not to understand what's happening.

  Glen Davis has been the best player in the league this postseason according to +/-. It is an incredibly flawed statistic.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  Dumbass.
  
  We've been over this. Shaq is playing against Chicago because they're trying to get him going coming off a months rest. We knew they would when we were still in the regular season. He isn't even playing that much as it is. He doesn't match up with them because they don't have a true C. They move around a lot. He matches up with the style that Orlando plays and he allows our perimeter defenders to be able to stay out on the shooters. Hickson does not, he needs a double team to handle Howard. And that is when the Magic start banging threes, just like last year. That's why they're so good, because most teams don't have a guy who can at least slow Howard down on his own. If you do and can stay out on their shooters, they become incredibly ineffective and lost offensively.
• Footwedge

  RedBlackAttack wrote:

  Footwedge wrote: The Cavs DO NOT play the samed way offensiveky when shaq's on the floor. I should stop right here...because obviously you don't pat very close attention.

  lol
  
  This f#cking guy.
  
  The Cavs will occasionally play a more up-tempo style just to change things up, but the halfcourt, slow-it-down game has been the Cavs' style for yeras and years... Basically since Mike Brown took over.
  
  In fact, this year, they play more up-tempo than in any year prior under Brown.
  

  Footwedge wrote:When Shaq's on the court, they dump it in to him almost every time down the court on the low bglock. It os slow, and percentage wise, not good basketball..and hurts our offense. Do we also dumo it down to JJ? How about Andy? No we don't. We run backscreens and cuts and high pick and rolls.

  We play through Shaq because he presents matchup problems and he is also an excellent passer. So, we give it to him in the post to force the defense to make a move. Either they come with the double and an extra body and then we move the ball to the open man or he will overpower smaller defenders one-on-one (as you saw against Noah in Game 1).
  
  We don't give the ball to Varejao or JJ in the post because neither of those guys are capable of creating their own shots, let alone creating shots for others.
  
  Hickson can be good when others set him up with easy layups or shots around the rim. Varejao is good on little back door cuts and getting second shots around the basket.
  
  But, both of those guys are incredibly limited offensively and neither of them have ANY semblance of a post game.
  
  

  Footwedge wrote:Again...don't take my word for it...look up the numbers.

  Ok... Let's look at the numbers.
  
  Shaq took seven shots today... SEVEN. And he made three of them.
  
  In Game 3, he took eight shots.
  
  In Game 2, he took FOUR shots.
  
  In Game 1, he took his series high of nine shots, but he also made five of those.
  
  Shoots every time down, you say? What game are you watching?
  

  He shoots a lot...and has been missing a lot.

  Wrong and wrong.
  
  

  Footwedge wrote:I'm not saying that JJ will stop him every time, but he will be a lot better than the turtle will be. And with Hickson on the court, the offense will not suffer nearly as much.

  Hickson is not nearly big enough or strong enough to defend Howard... Ever. That should be blatantly obvious to everyone and anyone.

  There is so much BS is your response it's hardly worth my time to respond. Shaq's shot numbers were low because Brownie yanked his ass off the court because bioth he and the team were not doing well....at all.
  
  If you can't understand that the team as a whole is playing poorly with him on the court, then there's nothing I can do for you. again...there is a reason shaq isn't playing....the coach has set his ass down. Why is Shaq sitting on the bench so much?
  
  Are you the expert or is Brownie the expert? Are you the expert or is LeBron the expert?...you know LeBron...the guy who stated publicly that Shaq is killing the team?
  
  LOL. So many blind fans...incredible.