GoT returns Sunday

• Heretic

  

  gut;1869037 wrote:I'm wondering what major issues aren't going to be really addressed. The more they don't answer the less issues it will be when GRRM brings out his next book.
  
  To me, killing Littlefinger is justice and revenge for the guy who put all this in motion - in terms of the first season that story arc, arguably THE story arc, is over. Final season can be all WW, and I'd be satisfied as long as they kill Cersei along the way. Don't really care if it's Jon or Dany on the throne (or someone else). Never cared about Sansa.

  About the only thing about the Littlefinger death I didn't quite get was if there was any actual enmity between Sansa and Arya beforehand, as it leads to sort of a plot hole regardless of which way the truth is.
  
  1. If they had legit issues with each other, then good on Sansa for outsmarting Littlefinger by using his "I just think of the worst and figure out the motive" game against him while he's trying to BS his way into convincing you that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell. But, uh, your little sister was recently threatening to cut off your face. You guys are cool now? Uhhhh...I wouldn't exactly be remotely comfortable hanging out on the ramparts with L'il Miss Stabby having family hour right after that.
  
  2. If they didn't have legit issues with each other, then why was Arya PRIVATELY threatening Sansa? There wasn't anyone else in the room, so you can't really say that they were playing LF at that point. Especially since a lot of the rope he hung himself with came from Bran using his 3 Eye Raven readings to disclose all the stuff he set in motion in the early seasons.
• Laley23

  

  So, did Tyrion double-cross them? They cut out of that scene quickly with Cersei. She lied. Then Tyrion is all sad on the boat and being a creep. I'm not sure he didn't get swayed by Cersei and family talk.
• Laley23

  

  Heretic;1869047 wrote:About the only thing about the Littlefinger death I didn't quite get was if there was any actual enmity between Sansa and Arya beforehand, as it leads to sort of a plot hole regardless of which way the truth is.
  
  1. If they had legit issues with each other, then good on Sansa for outsmarting Littlefinger by using his "I just think of the worst and figure out the motive" game against him while he's trying to BS his way into convincing you that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell. But, uh, your little sister was recently threatening to cut off your face. You guys are cool now? Uhhhh...I wouldn't exactly be remotely comfortable hanging out on the ramparts with L'il Miss Stabby having family hour right after that.
  
  2. If they didn't have legit issues with each other, then why was Arya PRIVATELY threatening Sansa? There wasn't anyone else in the room, so you can't really say that they were playing LF at that point. Especially since a lot of the rope he hung himself with came from Bran using his 3 Eye Raven readings to disclose all the stuff he set in motion in the early seasons.

  No, that was purposeful. Little finger is AWAYS listening...that's the brilliance of the play. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't, but they were assuming he is always around.
• gut

  Laley23;1869049 wrote:No, that was purposeful. Little finger is AWAYS listening...that's the brilliance of the play. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't, but they were assuming he is always around.

  I just assume any issues were resolved off-screen. Some recaps I read said Arya should have known Sansa wrote that under duress, which would fit with your theory that threat was staged for an eavesdropping Littlefinger. IMO, Littlefinger made that comment about "imagine the worst motive"...and Sansa realized "hey, I don't need to imagine I can go ask Bran to go the DVR". So maybe it's as simple as Bran setting them all straight.
• SnotBubbles

  

  Laley23;1869048 wrote:So, did Tyrion double-cross them? They cut out of that scene quickly with Cersei. She lied. Then Tyrion is all sad on the boat and being a creep. I'm not sure he didn't get swayed by Cersei and family talk.

  That's a good point that I didn't think about. It certainly makes sense.
  
  Tyrion is a great character, but that dude has made some pretty ignorant decisions this whole show.
• Zoltan

  I thought Arya was legit threatening her because her only knowledge at that time was the letter she found that Sansa wrote. In between that scene and last night Bran decided, "Hey, I know everything, maybe I should tell my sisters what Little Finger is up to." Once he did they all got on the same page and took him out.
• Heretic

  

  Laley23;1869049 wrote:No, that was purposeful. Little finger is AWAYS listening...that's the brilliance of the play. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't, but they were assuming he is always around.

  gut;1869051 wrote:I just assume any issues were resolved off-screen. Some recaps I read said Arya should have known Sansa wrote that under duress, which would fit with your theory that threat was staged for an eavesdropping Littlefinger. IMO, Littlefinger made that comment about "imagine the worst motive"...and Sansa realized "hey, I don't need to imagine I can go ask Bran to go the DVR". So maybe it's as simple as Bran setting them all straight.

  That all makes sense, so maybe my issue with that part simply was that they were all-in on the swerve "you're on trial now...Lord Baelish!" line that they had to resolve all the family issues off-screen, so it just felt really abrupt to me. To where, upon thinking about it for a while, you can connect the dots, but on screen, they weren't showing the dots to maintain dramatic tension.
• gut

  Laley23;1869048 wrote:So, did Tyrion double-cross them?

  What would be his motive? He hates his sister and she wants him dead.
  
  I think the point was she played and outwitted BOTH Tyrion and Jamie. I'd have to agree with one of the recaps I saw that said, all of a sudden this season, Tyrion has become a bumbling fool (completely betraying the character).
  
  Back to convenient plot devices....Yara, for some reason, is still alive and Theon is going to rescue her....with the Iron Islands fleet bringing 20k(?) sell swords back to King's Landing, arriving with undoubetdly immaculate timing.
  
  I wonder if the rest of the Lannister armies/Lords will still follow Jaimie into the WW war.
• gut

  Heretic;1869054 wrote:That all makes sense, so maybe my issue with that part simply was that they were all-in on the swerve "you're on trial now...Lord Baelish!" line that they had to resolve all the family issues off-screen, so it just felt really abrupt to me. To where, upon thinking about it for a while, you can connect the dots, but on screen, they weren't showing the dots to maintain dramatic tension.

  It was sort of a "gotchya" moment, which GoT rarely has done. But it was awesome!
  
  Not sure that Arya and Sansa suddenly becoming besties makes sense, though.
• Heretic

  

  SnotBubbles;1869052 wrote:That's a good point that I didn't think about. It certainly makes sense.
  
  Tyrion is a great character, but that dude has made some pretty ignorant decisions this whole show.

  Double-crossing is a possibility, but I think part of his issues are the same as those Littlefinger has all this season: being a fish out of water because he's trying to play the same games as in Kings Landing, while not being in Kings Landing. Last year, he showed he was out of his depth while negotiating with slavers who simply didn't GAF. This year, Jaime got the better of him because Tyrion was out of the loop concerning Casterly Rock's mines being dry, negating its overall importance to the Lannisters. I also think he was shocked enough by watching Dany burn the shit out Lannister forces that he's trying too hard to procure peace and ignoring the actual personality of the person he's talking to.
  
  He felt like shit over the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen and found Cersei is preggo, so when she didn't have Clegane butcher him, he got completely played because he hasn't been around her to know just how off the rails she's gotten.
• gut

  Zoltan;1869053 wrote:I thought Arya was legit threatening her because her only knowledge at that time was the letter she found that Sansa wrote. In between that scene and last night Bran decided, "Hey, I know everything, maybe I should tell my sisters what Little Finger is up to." Once he did they all got on the same page and took him out.

  I assumed Sansa grew suspicious about how Arya found the letter, much less her reason for searching it out....then went and asked Bran for advice.
  
  Seems to me, for being the 3-eyed Raven, Bran doesn't actually know much until someone comes and asks him something. He's a crippled teen - I figure he spends most of his time watching the porn channel.
• gut

  kizer permanente;1869044 wrote:Ok. But Queens don't rule. Jon would as King. Dany would just be his wife. You didn't solve it.

  Jon has more of a claim - I really don't know what basis there is to think Dany would object. And it might be out of her hands, since he's also a Stark and King of the North, and assuming he leads the victory over the WW the majority of people will follow him even if he wasn't the rightful heir.
  
  Them getting married makes it even less of a conflict. And them having a child solves the succession issue Tyrion mentioned.
  
  Due to time constraints, I don't expect there to be much of a conflict here that needs, much less gets, solved. GoT can basically end just crowning Jon (or killing him and crowning Dany), and any future conflict is something GRRM might explore in the book(s) to come.
  
  As far as Jon dying, there's that line from Beric that they were brought back to serve, and won't get happiness.
• Laley23

  

  gut;1869055 wrote:What would be his motive? He hates his sister and she wants him dead.
  
  I think the point was she played and outwitted BOTH Tyrion and Jamie. I'd have to agree with one of the recaps I saw that said, all of a sudden this season, Tyrion has become a bumbling fool (completely betraying the character).

  He has no real motive. Was just something I was throwing out. The scene ended so quickly, after he found out she was pregnant, that it seemed something was out of place. That, coupled with his look on the boat...just spitballing.
• gut

  Laley23;1869071 wrote:He has no real motive. Was just something I was throwing out. The scene ended so quickly, after he found out she was pregnant, that it seemed something was out of place. That, coupled with his look on the boat...just spitballing.

  I figured when he assumed she was pregnant that he made an appeal to her as a mother. Although when he came back in he didn't exactly look satisfied or victorious.
  
  But maybe he cut a side deal, that in exchange for her cooperation Tyrion would help Cersei keep the crown? Tyrion was less than happy that Dany torched the Tarly's....and there was that conversation with Varys over whether Dany was going down the path of the Mad King.
  
  More likely Tyrion just doesn't trust Cersei, which explains the blank expression when he came back to the arena.
  
  I have no idea why Tyrion was creeping outside the bedroom, or why he looked concerned. Maybe he was butthurt over the demotion implied? Tyrion has never been one for duplicitous plots, so I really can't see him cutting any deals that puts Dany or Jon at risk. Although facing annihilation, anyone at this point is capable of a "greater good" type decision.
  
  
  I guess they did leave us with gigantic questionmarks around Tyrion and Jamie.
• gut

  Speaking of Jamie...how does Cersei just let him leave after revealing her huge double-cross to him? Was I the only one that thought her nod was the go ahead for Mountain to kill him?
• SportsAndLady

  

  gut;1869079 wrote:Speaking of Jamie...how does Cersei just let him leave after revealing her huge double-cross to him? Was I the only one that thought her nod was the go ahead for Mountain to kill him?

  I thought so too.
  
  Not sure why the mountain just let him walk by.
• Zoltan

  SportsAndLady;1869086 wrote:I thought so too.
  
  Not sure why the mountain just let him walk by.

  It's interesting her prophecy says she will be killed by her little brother. She had a chance to kill both of them last night and didn't...
• bigorangebuck22

  gut;1869058 wrote:I assumed Sansa grew suspicious about how Arya found the letter, much less her reason for searching it out....then went and asked Bran for advice.
  
  Seems to me, for being the 3-eyed Raven, Bran doesn't actually know much until someone comes and asks him something. He's a crippled teen - I figure he spends most of his time watching the porn channel.

  At least they didn't show him standing next to the bed during the not-so-epic boatsex
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Zoltan;1869091 wrote:It's interesting her prophecy says she will be killed by her little brother. She had a chance to kill both of them last night and didn't...

  Valonqar (so I've read) has no gender, and Maggie doesn't necessarily specify that it is Cersei's sibling.
  
  This is shit I've read on various sites, so I have no idea what's true and what's not.
• gut

  ernest_t_bass;1869142 wrote:Valonqar (so I've read) has no gender, and Maggie doesn't necessarily specify that it is Cersei's sibling.
  
  This is shit I've read on various sites, so I have no idea what's true and what's not.

  I've seen that the "Prince that was promised" has no gender, but only ever that Valonqar means "little brother". Jaimie was born a few minutes after Cersei.
  
  But I think it might be difficult for Jaimie to strangle her with just one hand.
• GOONx19

  

  If she dies giving birth to Jaime's child, does that count?
• gut

  GOONx19;1869176 wrote:If she dies giving birth to Jaime's child, does that count?

  I'm not an expert on the witch's prophecy, but she said she would have 3 children. I suppose that may not rule out a 4th child and dying in child birth, but I think that goes beyond semantics. Could die during a still birth, I suppose.
  
  On a related note, most don't seem to believe the pregnancy is confirmed...however one person claimed she didn't drink the wine Tyrion poured, and cited that as validating the claim. Subtly faking a pregnancy in order to manipulate Tyrion would seem a huge stretch (much different than just making the claim to manipulate Jaimie).
  
  But does anyone else think Cersei is pretty much the perfect queen for the Night King?