And it's officially time to start taking Notre Dame serious

• killer_ewok

  

  Fly4Fun;1081059 wrote:But I really don't buy into Syracuse as being top 4 material as they haven't played that tough of a schedule

  
  I thought I just saw that Syracuse's schedule has been the 13th toughest in the country?
  
  http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/rpi/SYR
• Fly4Fun

  

  According to that rating it might be 13th, but let's look at the actual schedule.
  
  Fordham W 78-52
  Manhattan W 92-56
  Albany W 98-74
  Colgate W 92-47
  Virginia Tech W 69-58
  Stanford 69-62
  Eastern Michigan W 84-48
  #9 Florida W 72-68
  Marshal 62-56
  George Washington W 85-50
  @ North Carolina State W 88-72 (first road game)
  Bucknell W 80-61
  Tulane W 80-61
  Seton Hall W 75-49
  @ DePaul W 87-68
  @ Providence W 87-73
  #20 Marquette W 73-66
  @ Villanova W 79-66
  Providence W 78-55
  @ Notre Dame L 67-58
  @ Cincinatti W 60-53
  Westvirginia W 63-61
  @ St. John's W 95-70
  #11 Georgetown W 64-61 OT
  
  They played 1 OOC road game. They did play 1 ranked team OOC (Florida). They have played a total of three ranked teams (Florida, Marquette and Georgetown). All of those games have been at home. I really don' think ther schedule has been that impressive.
  
  Look at Ohio State's
  
  Wright State W 73-42
  #8 Florida W 81-74
  Jackson State W 85-41
  North Florida W 85-50
  Virginia Military Institute W 107-74
  Valparaiso W 80-47
  #4 Duke W 85-63
  Texas Pan-American W 64-35
  @ #13 Kansas L 78-67
  USC Upstate W 82-58
  @ South Carolina W 74-66
  Lamar W 70-50
  Miami (Ohio) W 69-40
  Northwestern W 87-54
  @ #15 Indiana L 74-70
  Nebraska W 71-40
  @ Iowa W 76-47
  @ Illinois L 79-74
  #8 Indiana W 80-63
  @ Nebraska W 79-53
  Penn State W 78-54
  #22 Michigan W 64-49
  @ #20 Wisconsin W 58-52
  Purdue W 87-84
  
  Ohio State played 2 OOC road games and 2 ranked teams OOC (both are currently top 10). OSU has played a total of 7 ranked teams so far.
  
  SOS is more about the average. When looking at the schedules it is easy to say that OSU has played more good teams, but also played more crap teams. Syracuse has played a lot more middle of the road teams which helps their SoS, but isn't really a good test.
  
  Everyone knows the College Basketball OOC is generally pretty weak. If it's not a "BCS School" or a ranked team then it really does not mean much.
  
  Even though OSU's SoS is definitely worse by the numbers, I can still easily say with a straight face that they have played a tougher schedule.
  
  The meaningless games (Whether it be Colgate, Marshal, Fordham, Manhattan, or Jackson State, North Florida, Texas-Pan Am, Wright State) don't matter. Syracuse just happens to have less terrible meaningless games which improves their SOS. But that doesn't mean they still aren't terrible, they are just less terrible.
• killer_ewok

  

  Fly4Fun;1081202 wrote:According to that rating it might be 13th, but let's look at the actual schedule.
  
  Fordham W 78-52
  Manhattan W 92-56
  Albany W 98-74
  Colgate W 92-47
  Virginia Tech W 69-58
  Stanford 69-62
  Eastern Michigan W 84-48
  #9 Florida W 72-68
  Marshal 62-56
  George Washington W 85-50
  @ North Carolina State W 88-72 (first road game)
  Bucknell W 80-61
  Tulane W 80-61
  Seton Hall W 75-49
  @ DePaul W 87-68
  @ Providence W 87-73
  #20 Marquette W 73-66
  @ Villanova W 79-66
  Providence W 78-55
  @ Notre Dame L 67-58
  @ Cincinatti W 60-53
  Westvirginia W 63-61
  @ St. John's W 95-70
  #11 Georgetown W 64-61 OT
  
  They played 1 OOC road game. They did play 1 ranked team OOC (Florida). They have played a total of three ranked teams (Florida, Marquette and Georgetown). All of those games have been at home. I really don' think ther schedule has been that impressive.
  
  Look at Ohio State's
  
  Wright State W 73-42
  #8 Florida W 81-74
  Jackson State W 85-41
  North Florida W 85-50
  Virginia Military Institute W 107-74
  Valparaiso W 80-47
  #4 Duke W 85-63
  Texas Pan-American W 64-35
  @ #13 Kansas L 78-67
  USC Upstate W 82-58
  @ South Carolina W 74-66
  Lamar W 70-50
  Miami (Ohio) W 69-40
  Northwestern W 87-54
  @ #15 Indiana L 74-70
  Nebraska W 71-40
  @ Iowa W 76-47
  @ Illinois L 79-74
  #8 Indiana W 80-63
  @ Nebraska W 79-53
  Penn State W 78-54
  #22 Michigan W 64-49
  @ #20 Wisconsin W 58-52
  Purdue W 87-84
  
  Ohio State played 2 OOC road games and 2 ranked teams OOC (both are currently top 10). OSU has played a total of 7 ranked teams so far.
  
  SOS is more about the average. When looking at the schedules it is easy to say that OSU has played more good teams, but also played more crap teams. Syracuse has played a lot more middle of the road teams which helps their SoS, but isn't really a good test.
  
  Everyone knows the College Basketball OOC is generally pretty weak. If it's not a "BCS School" or a ranked team then it really does not mean much.
  
  Even though OSU's SoS is definitely worse by the numbers, I can still easily say with a straight face that they have played a tougher schedule.
  
  The meaningless games (Whether it be Colgate, Marshal, Fordham, Manhattan, or Jackson State, North Florida, Texas-Pan Am, Wright State) don't matter. Syracuse just happens to have less terrible meaningless games which improves their SOS. But that doesn't mean they still aren't terrible, they are just less terrible.

  
  Syracuse actually played some of those early games at Madison Square Garden. So even though they are virtual "home" games, technically they were on a neutral floor.
  
  I'll still take the formula for SoS over someone just eye-ing the schedules.
• vball10set

  Ewok, so you're a ND football/'Cuse basketball fan, right?
• DeyDurkie5

  

  vball10set;1081302 wrote:Ewok, so you're a ND football/'Cuse basketball fan, right?

  and steelers
• sleeper

  

  DeyDurkie5;1081306 wrote:and steelers

  And Lakers.
• Fly4Fun

  

  killer_ewok;1081297 wrote:Syracuse actually played some of those early games at Madison Square Garden. So even though they are virtual "home" games, technically they were on a neutral floor.
  
  I'll still take the formula for SoS over someone just eye-ing the schedules.

  Agree to disagree then. My main point overall is that a gimme is a gimme. The difference is OSU played gimmes that were worse than Syracuse, but OSU played more challenging games. However, OSU's gimmes were so bad it really brings down their SoS. You take a top 10 team, and have them play either of the 2 schedules. This hyopthetical team would probably win the gimmes on both teams schedules. However, the OSU schedule has more games that are actually challenging.
• SportsAndLady

  

  I'll take an eye ball test over the SoS formula...the SoS formula is shitty; there's been times where Kansas has had a LOUSY OOC schedule and they're usually in the top 5 in SoS. It's stupid.
  
  Not saying Syracuse's schedule isn't bad.
• Fly4Fun

  

  SportsAndLady;1081337 wrote:I'll take an eye ball test over the SoS formula...the SoS formula is shitty; there's been times where Kansas has had a LOUSY OOC schedule and they're usually in the top 5 in SoS. It's stupid.
  
  Not saying Syracuse's schedule isn't bad.

  The Eyeball test does have merit as it is essentially looking at RPI top 50 games. Everyone knows everyone plays absolutely terrible. It's how many good teams did you play and how did you do against them.
  
  Syracuse vs. RPI top 25
  
  They played Marquette, Florida and Georgetown (3 games)
  
  OSU vs. RIP top 25
  
  Duke, Kansas, Florida, Michigan, Indiana (twice) (6 games including 2 in the top 5)
  
  Syracuse 26-50
  
  Seton Hall, West Virginia, Notre Dame (3 more)
  
  OSU 26-30
  
  Wisconsin, Northwestern, Illinois (3 more)
  
  Also, doesn't pertain to current SoS, but...
  
  Every game remaining on OSU's schedule is in the top 50, 4 against ranked opponents.
  
  4 out of 6 on Syracuse are top 50, only 2 are against ranked opponents (Louisville, who is also overrated imo).
  
  The Eyeball test is the rough equivalent of looking at games against top 25 or top 50 RPI teams. Every team has a bunch of games in OOC that are just gimmes and mean nothing. But they do effect SoS as some gimmes are just a tad bit harder (but still a gimme) than others.
• killer_ewok

  

  vball10set;1081302 wrote:Ewok, so you're a ND football/'Cuse basketball fan, right?

  
  Yep.
• killer_ewok

  

  DeyDurkie5;1081306 wrote:and steelers

  
  Yep.
• killer_ewok

  

  sleeper;1081311 wrote:And Lakers.

  
  Fuck no.
• killer_ewok

  

  Fly4Fun;1081319 wrote:Agree to disagree then. My main point overall is that a gimme is a gimme. The difference is OSU played gimmes that were worse than Syracuse, but OSU played more challenging games. However, OSU's gimmes were so bad it really brings down their SoS. You take a top 10 team, and have them play either of the 2 schedules. This hyopthetical team would probably win the gimmes on both teams schedules. However, the OSU schedule has more games that are actually challenging.

  
  Fair enough. I've never compared the 'Cuse/OSU schedules and didn't claim that Syracuse's was tougher. I just don't think that Syracuse's schedule is weak.
  
  I will also say this...if we're eye-ing schedules....I think it's fair to put the actual teams to the eye test. I think that if you've actually watched Syracuse consistently this season....they're a damn good team. I definitely think they're a top 5 team and can say that without hesitation.
• vball10set

  killer_ewok;1081367 wrote: I definitely think they're a top 5 team and can say that without hesitation.

  No doubt in my mind as well.
• centralbucksfan

  killer_ewok;1081367 wrote: . I definitely think they're a top 5 team and can say that without hesitation.

  No question about this. They have size, athletes across the board, and then some. The one question I do have, is what some have made mention of, who is their go to guy? I would say Joseph. But last nite, they looked a bit lost during that time. I really think there is something to be said with knowing who to go to during crunch time. To me, that is their biggest question mark.
  As for their schedule, it may not be weak, but its not anything to brag about either. But IMO, it doesn't matter. 'Cuse passes the eye test.
  IMO, right now, its:
  1a. UK
  1b. 'Cuse
  2. OSU.
  3-8. Tossup on any given week.
• SportsAndLady

  

  killer_ewok;1081367 wrote:Fair enough. I've never compared the 'Cuse/OSU schedules and didn't claim that Syracuse's was tougher. I just don't think that Syracuse's schedule is weak.

  I really don't understand why F4F keeps comparing Cuse to OSU lol
  

  killer_ewok;1081367 wrote:I will also say this...if we're eye-ing schedules....I think it's fair to put the actual teams to the eye test. I think that if you've actually watched Syracuse consistently this season....they're a damn good team. I definitely think they're a top 5 team and can say that without hesitation.

  I agree w/ this. Nothing I hate more than when a team has like one big win and it's back in November, and when I say they're bad now, in February, a fan yells at me because they have a decent record and that one huge win. Okay, well I don't care about your one big win and 16-6 record, I can just watch your team and know they aren't that good and don't really have that potential that say a UCONN had last year, where they can just turn it on when it counts.
• killer_ewok

  

  centralbucksfan;1081394 wrote:No question about this. They have size, athletes across the board, and then some. The one question I do have, is what some have made mention of, who is their go to guy? I would say Joseph. But last nite, they looked a bit lost during that time. I really think there is something to be said with knowing who to go to during crunch time. To me, that is their biggest question mark.
  As for their schedule, it may not be weak, but its not anything to brag about either. But IMO, it doesn't matter. 'Cuse passes the eye test.
  IMO, right now, its:
  1a. UK
  1b. 'Cuse
  2. OSU.
  3-8. Tossup on any given week.

  
  I'd say that's Kris Joseph and he did knock down the big 3 in OT and stepped up in a big game. Dion Waiters would be next in line. Also, good post.
• SportsAndLady

  

  centralbucksfan;1081394 wrote: IMO, right now, its:
  1a. UK
  1b. 'Cuse
  2. OSU.
  3-8. Tossup on any given week.

  1a) UK
  1b) Cuse
  1c) OSU
  1d) UNC (last night was a fluke, imo..that won't happen in March)
  2) Missouri
  3-8) tossup
  
  Would be mine
• Fly4Fun

  

  killer_ewok;1081367 wrote:Fair enough. I've never compared the 'Cuse/OSU schedules and didn't claim that Syracuse's was tougher. I just don't think that Syracuse's schedule is weak.
  
  I will also say this...if we're eye-ing schedules....I think it's fair to put the actual teams to the eye test. I think that if you've actually watched Syracuse consistently this season....they're a damn good team. I definitely think they're a top 5 team and can say that without hesitation.

  I was just comparing to OSU because I know more about their schedule so it was an easy comparison. I know you didn't drag OSU into it.
  
  And ya, it's fair to put the team to the eye test. But I have yet to see Syracuse play a full game, let alone multiple so I wouldn't judge them off that. I just think they haven't really been tested, and they definitely haven't been tested much on the road. All three of their ranked teams have been home games. But, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong. It's just how I view it.
  
  But then again, I just went and looked at the standings and the top 10 teams schedules. No one else is that impressive so I could live with putting Syracuse in the top 5.
• killer_ewok

  

  Fly4Fun;1081409 wrote:I was just comparing to OSU because I know more about their schedule so it was an easy comparison. I know you didn't drag OSU into it.
  
  And ya, it's fair to put the team to the eye test. But I have yet to see Syracuse play a full game, let alone multiple so I wouldn't judge them off that. I just think they haven't really been tested, and they definitely haven't been tested much on the road. All three of their ranked teams have been home games. But, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong. It's just how I view it.
  
  But then again, I just went and looked at the standings and the top 10 teams schedules. No one else is that impressive so I could live with putting Syracuse in the top 5.

  
  Fair enough. Understood.
• killer_ewok

  

  SportsAndLady;1081402 wrote:I agree w/ this. Nothing I hate more than when a team has like one big win and it's back in November, and when I say they're bad now, in February, a fan yells at me because they have a decent record and that one huge win. Okay, well I don't care about your one big win and 16-6 record, I can just watch your team and know they aren't that good and don't really have that potential that say a UCONN had last year, where they can just turn it on when it counts.

  Yeah, agree. I mean, that kind of argument might hold some water when talking about a team being NCAA tourney worthy but not when debating whether they're that good of a team at that point in the year.
• centralbucksfan

  SportsAndLady;1081406 wrote:1a) UK
  1b) Cuse
  1c) OSU
  1d) UNC (last night was a fluke, imo..that won't happen in March)
  2) Missouri
  3-8) tossup
  
  Would be mine

  If last nite was a fluke for UNC, what was the 30pt beat down that FSU gave them not long ago? UNC obviously has the talent. But there is "something" missing from that team. I think they lack some toughness, more mental than anything.
  Mizzou is good. But if not for KU choking in the final minutes, they have a home loss. KU outplayed them most of that game. And KU is a team to watch as well. Self has them playing VERY well right now. If the NCAA were to start, they might be my darkhorse to make final four.
• Prescott

  I am not selling my UNC stock. Last night they were outscored by 39 points behind the arc and lost by one. Did they help duke with some bone-headed plays, sure they did. But, their talent is undeniable and that makes them dangerous.
• Mulva

  

  I think UK is a step ahead of everyone else right now. My list would be more like
  
  1. UK
  
  2a. OSU
  2b. UNC (they should be with UK, but for some reason they aren't)
  2c. Syracuse
  
  3a. Kansas (the anti-UNC, they shouldn't be as good as they are)
  3b. Missouri
  
  Michigan State, Florida, Baylor, Georgetown, and Duke are in the group right below that.
• SportsAndLady

  

  centralbucksfan;1081420 wrote:If last nite was a fluke for UNC, what was the 30pt beat down that FSU gave them not long ago? UNC obviously has the talent. But there is "something" missing from that team. I think they lack some toughness, more mental than anything.
  Mizzou is good. But if not for KU choking in the final minutes, they have a home loss. KU outplayed them most of that game. And KU is a team to watch as well. Self has them playing VERY well right now. If the NCAA were to start, they might be my darkhorse to make final four.

  The 30 point loss @ FSU was puzzling, i'll give you that lol I don't know what happened with that. But I'm sure if you look back at past nat'l champs, you'll find puzzling losses post-new years.
  
  And as for Mizzou, if my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle. They didn't lose that KU game, so they don't have that home loss lol they showed that their players are experienced enough to tkae big time shots and hit them. Missouri is one of the most dangerous teams imo, because they have great guard play, and experience to a) keep them cool when things aren't going so well and b) hit game winners.
  
  KU is a team to watch. Which is pretty incredible considering most (myself included) KU fans had this team as a high NCAA seed coming into the season. If Tyshawn Taylor keeps playing the way he is, they can win a national championship, I truly believe that.