Ohio Chatter DEV

swamisez

se-alum;704685 wrote:So you're not gonna answer my question? Just going to run w/ your tail between your legs?

What was your question again? I don't think I saw it amidst the homerism from so many.
tell me again and I will try to justify my beliefs.

swamisez

Prescott;704711 wrote:You wrote that Craft's lack of lateral quickness would hurt OSU. We are just asking why you think that is the case when Matta and other basketball experts claim that Craft has exceptional lateral quickness. It isn't an argument , it is a debate and you need to back up your belief with something other than "I think".

This is complex, but I will attempt to provide my basis for belief.

Big Ten basketball is unlike basketball in any other major conference. In the big ten the majority of the offenses are predicated on offensive sets and player movement off of picks and screens. As a result the pace of play generally is a bit lower. Players catch and shoot off of screens (higher shooting percentages) and get post touches off of ball reversals (allowance for development of true NBA big men). This is very fundamental basketball. This is basketball to be appreciated, much in the same way fans appreciate big ten football for its commitment to fundamentals, special teams, and the running game.

Unfortunately for Big Ten fans the vast majority of the country does not play basketball in this way. In the ACC, Big East, Big Twelve, etc offenses are predicated on movement with the basketball in hand. A player who seeks to get shots must do so off the dribble. It is not as fundamentally crisp, and more would claim it is "street basketball", however it is what teams all over the country are doing due to the talent on the floor. As a result of these offenses shooting percentages are generally a bit lower. To compensate teams play at a greater pace with the hope of getting more shots.

When I watch Ohio State I see aggressive on the ball defense by Aaron Craft. However this type of defense is not easily achieved against teams outside of conference. I see this defense being played against offenses that have predicated movement. In set play basketball guards are not necessarily looking to penetrate the defense for the purpose of breaking down the offense for a score, but getting into position to set up the offense.

This is where I feel the style of play in the Big Ten has allowed Craft to become one of the revered defenders. As OSU moves out of conference into the tournament he will see offenses and players that will not be moving for the sake of getting into better offensive position (predictive position) but will be moving for the purpose of scoring the basketball (selective and unpredictable movement). It is here that I feel Craft will struggle due to some lack in lateral quickness on the attack. He stays very low and draws quite a bit of lower body contact. If a player is moving toward the basket when the contact is received he is more likely to receive a foul call. If the movement is done for the purpose of turing over a defense and in an effort to begin an offensive set, a foul call is less likely, hence Craft's superior on the ball defense in the big ten.

When I look at Aaron Craft I try to envision him guarding a player like Nolan Smith, Austin Freeman, or Brandon Knight. It is here that I think he will struggle. Fortunately for OSU there are few teams with a guard who can score in the way needed to expose him. Kansas lacks this, Texas to an extent is lacking, as is Pitt. I believe Kentucky has the personnel but lacks consistency, Louisville has the personnel but again consistency, Duke has the personnel but lacks interior play, Purdue is a team that obvioulsy presents an issue but wouldn't play OSU till 8 of FF. UNC doesn't fit the diagram in terms of guard play, but the length of Carolina in combination with matchup potential presents an issue. Against teams that have aggressive wing players and get points from forwards I think OSU will be fine. It is against guards who score the basketball via the drive that I think OSU will be in for trip.

Hopefully that makes sense?

centralbucksfan

Anyone, and I mean anyone questioning Crafts defense, or lateral quickness, is downright IGNORANT! Craft is arguably one of the best on the ball defenders I have seen, EVER, period! Will he "shutdown" a great player? Well, who knows. He has done it numerous times against some very, very good gaurds in the Big Ten. But great offensive players are just that..at some point, they will get theirs. But against Craft, they will have to work their ass off, probably take more shots to get their average and be worn down by games end. That has a major impact on the game.
I am not sure people realize the luxury of having an on the ball defender like Craft. Its one of those luxuries that doesn't show in a stat box and that the common fan has no clue about. But don't kid yourself, he has a tremendous impact on the game.

Prescott

Big Ten basketball is unlike basketball in any other major conference. In the big ten the majority of the offenses are predicated on offensive sets and player movement off of picks and screens. As a result the pace of play generally is a bit lower. Players catch and shoot off of screens (higher shooting percentages) and get post touches off of ball reversals (allowance for development of true NBA big men). This is very fundamental basketball. This is basketball to be appreciated, much in the same way fans appreciate big ten football for its commitment to fundamentals, special teams, and the running game.

Unfortunately for Big Ten fans the vast majority of the country does not play basketball in this way. In the ACC, Big East, Big Twelve, etc offenses are predicated on movement with the basketball in hand. A player who seeks to get shots must do so off the dribble. It is not as fundamentally crisp, and more would claim it is "street basketball", however it is what teams all over the country are doing due to the talent on the floor. As a result of these offenses shooting percentages are generally a bit lower. To compensate teams play at a greater pace with the hope of getting more shots.

That is biggest bunch of generalities and bunk I have ever read.

centralbucksfan

Prescott;704824 wrote:That is biggest bunch of generalities and bunk I have ever read.

I got a good "LOL" out of that as well.

se-alum

swamisez;704717 wrote:What was your question again? I don't think I saw it amidst the homerism from so many.
tell me again and I will try to justify my beliefs.

What PG this year was able to beat Craft consistently off the dribble to score points?

swamisez

Do you feel those "generalities" are incorrect?

Adjusted tempo ratings for Big Ten teams
221
151
345
161
211
320
336
214
259
200
104 (the highest tempo team in Big Ten....Iowa)

conversely, because of the abundance of predicated offenses
Adjusted Offensive Efficiency
1
2
13
29
33
51
62
67
69
131....again Iowa

Less possessions seems to equate higher offensive efficiency. They aren't generalities if they are statistically supported.

centralbucksfan

swamisez;704910 wrote:Do you feel those "generalities" are incorrect?

Adjusted tempo ratings for Big Ten teams
221
151
345
161
211
320
336
214
259
200
104 (the highest tempo team in Big Ten....Iowa)

You ever consider the defense in the big ten? YOu do realize that many of the coaches in the big ten, have coached in other conferences as well. And overall, the coaching in the Big Ten is right up there with any other conference in the country.

Prescott

SCORING OFFENSE
## Team G W-L Pts Avg/G
--------------------------------------------
1.Ohio State.......... 18 16-2 1341 74.5
2.Purdue.............. 18 14-4 1305 72.5
3.Illinois............ 18 9-9 1233 68.5
4.Wisconsin........... 18 13-5 1223 67.9
5.Northwestern........ 18 7-11 1195 66.4
6.Iowa................ 18 4-14 1173 65.2
7.Indiana............. 18 3-15 1169 64.9
8.Michigan............ 18 9-9 1165 64.7
Michigan State...... 18 9-9 1165 64.7
10.Minnesota........... 18 6-12 1147 63.7
11.Penn State.......... 18 9-9 1138 63.2

SCORING OFFENSE

1. North Carolina 16 14-2 1190 74.4
2. Duke 16 13-3 1189 74.3
3. Maryland 16 7-9 1164 72.8
4. Virginia Tech 16 9-7 1124 70.2
5. Boston College 16 9-7 1110 69.4
6. NC State 16 5-11 1103 68.9
7. Florida State 16 11-5 1092 68.2
8. Georgia Tech 16 5-11 1074 67.1
9. Miami 16 6-10 1071 66.9
10. Clemson 16 9-7 1065 66.6
11. Wake Forest 16 1-15 985 61.6
12. Virginia 16 7-9 949 59.3

SCORING OFFENSE
1. Marquette 18 9-9 1317 73.2
2. Providence 18 4-14 1304 72.4
3. Notre Dame 18 14-4 1290 71.7
4. Syracuse 18 12-6 1275 70.8
5. Louisville 18 12-6 1264 70.2
6. Villanova 18 9-9 1262 70.1
7. Pittsburgh 18 15-3 1247 69.3
8. Connecticut 18 9-9 1222 67.9
9. St. John's 18 12-6 1212 67.3
10. West Virginia 18 11-7 1184 65.8
11. Seton Hall 18 7-11 1174 65.2
12. Georgetown 18 10-8 1168 64.9
13. Rutgers 18 5-13 1167 64.8
Cincinnati 18 11-7 1167 64.8
15. DePaul 18 1-17 1161 64.5
16. USF 18 3-15 1115 61.9

The difference between the Nig 10, the Big East and the ACC is negligible and could be attributed to any number of factors, not just tempo and style of play.

robj55

So basically swamisez is going off an assumption that he thinks craft couldnt defend guards from the ACC, Big East and Big Twelve, while others are going off factual basis of what they have seen with their own eyes all year, makes sense lol

swamisez

se-alum;704907 wrote:What PG this year was able to beat Craft consistently off the dribble to score points?

Going my means for evaluation I would need to see a couple more games of Craft against non-big ten opponents.
Given the fact since league play started (and Craft's subsequent starting role) OSU has not played outside of the conference,
my basis for evaluation is limited. That is a huge flaw I know, but with the NCAA tournament approaching more games will be available for inspection.

It is a shame because had Craft been starting earlier in the season as the matchup with Kenny Boynton would have been one to see.
In that game in Gainesville Boynton had at least 20 points and was deadly from the arc.

swamisez

se-alum;704907 wrote:What PG this year was able to beat Craft consistently off the dribble to score points?

Going my means for evaluation I would need to see a couple more games of Craft against non-big ten opponents.
Given the fact since league play started (and Craft's subsequent starting role) OSU has not played outside of the conference,
my basis for evaluation is limited. That is a huge flaw I know, but with the NCAA tournament approaching more games will be available for inspection.

It is a shame because had Craft been starting earlier in the season as the matchup with Kenny Boynton would have been one to see.
In that game in Gainesville Boynton had at least 20 points and was deadly from the arc.

se-alum

swamisez;704949 wrote:Going my means for evaluation I would need to see a couple more games of Craft against non-big ten opponents.
Given the fact since league play started (and Craft's subsequent starting role) OSU has not played outside of the conference,
my basis for evaluation is limited. That is a huge flaw I know, but with the NCAA tournament approaching more games will be available for inspection.

It is a shame because had Craft been starting earlier in the season as the matchup with Kenny Boynton would have been one to see.
In that game in Gainesville Boynton had at least 20 points and was deadly from the arc.

So you're basically just arguing that Big 10 PG's < ACC PG's......yea, and we're the homers.

swamisez

robj55;704927 wrote:So basically swamisez is going off an assumption that he thinks craft couldnt defend guards from the ACC, Big East and Big Twelve, while others are going off factual basis of what they have seen with their own eyes all year, makes sense lol

Didn't say he couldn't, saying that the game is different and he would have to make adjustments to the type of play and officiating that exists elsewhere. Just as guards who are used to playing in the Big East, Big 12, or ACC find the going much tougher if they were put into the Big Ten and into games with offensive sets instead of primary and secondary break teams.

For instance, I believe that if Kendall Marshall played in the Big Ten he would be largely ineffective because the bulk of his assists come in transition and the pace in the Big Ten would force him into a half court game. This has been an issue for him in games like @Duke @FSU. In the same manner if Aaron Craft were thrown into the ACC he would be expected to be less of a facilitator and more of a scoring option and distributor. It is the nature of the league.

Prescott

(and Craft's subsequent starting role

Craft does not start.

It is a shame because had Craft been starting earlier in the season as the matchup with Kenny Boynton would have been one to see.

Craft played 29 minutes against Florida

Be honest. You haven't watched OSU play, have you?

swamisez

se-alum;704965 wrote:So you're basically just arguing that Big 10 PG's < ACC PG's......yea, and we're the homers.

I didn't say that at all, but I believe it 100%.
I also believe that the big men in the Big 10 are markedly more developed than ACC bigs because the style of play in B10 forces them to develop post play as opposed to the transition type buckets that are gained by the Al-Farouq Aminu's John Henson's and Mason Plumlee's of the world. There is a significant lack of post play in the ACC and much of that is due to the tempo teams in the conference play.

LJ

swamisez;704949 wrote:
It is a shame because had Craft been starting earlier in the season as the matchup with Kenny Boynton would have been one to see.
In that game in Gainesville Boynton had at least 20 points and was deadly from the arc.

Now I know that you are just being a jackass who hasn't really done any research. Craft played 29 minutes in that game and Boynton scored 21 points

swamisez

Prescott;704969 wrote:Craft does not start.

Craft played 29 minutes against Florida

Be honest. You haven't watched OSU play, have you?

Games I have seen OSU play
Florida
Florida State
South Carolina
Minnesota
a portion of PSU in columbus
@Minnesota
Purdue
Northwestern
Purdue
Wisconsin
Wisconsin

One of my coaches is from Ohio and the television in our lounge is constantly on the BTN where he sits watching the games scrutinizing OSU's lack of depth. Since the TV resides just away from my office our staff usually gathers after our games and watches. As a result I have watched far more Big Ten basketball than I ever wanted to.

LJ

swamisez;704978 wrote:Games I have seen OSU play
Florida
Florida State
South Carolina
Minnesota
a portion of PSU in columbus
@Minnesota
Purdue
Northwestern
Purdue
Wisconsin
Wisconsin

You obviously didn't watch the Florida game, because Craft played his season average minutes

se-alum

LJ;704972 wrote:Now I know that you are just being a jackass who hasn't really done any research. Craft played 29 minutes in that game and Boynton scored 21 points

95% sure that Craft guarded Walker that game.

LJ

se-alum;704984 wrote:95% sure that Craft guarded Walker that game.

He made the implication that Craft didn't play. Not only that, I am not sure that Craft has even started a game this season. 2 fails

swamisez

I do apologize, I want to continue this convo very much but will be away from my computer until late this evening. Will be back round 9 or 10 to check on your progress in calling me a jackass.

swamisez

LJ;704979 wrote:You obviously didn't watch the Florida game, because Craft played his season average minutes

Don't remember much about his play that game to be honest. Sullinger stole the headlines, and this board had yet to become the Aaron Craft walks on water forum.

LJ

swamisez;704992 wrote:I do apologize, I want to continue this convo very much but will be away from my computer until late this evening. Will be back round 9 or 10 to check on your progress in calling me a jackass.

ah, an 8-9 hour fact finding mission. Good. I really don't mind differing opinions, but you are just saying shit to try to get people riled up. You don't even know who played in a game you supposedly watched

swamisez

fully admit I don't watch to see who starts the game for OSU. I am usually catching the games just after tipoff or when most of you are catching them 4-5 minutes in due to TV delays from game 1.

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