Archive

Homosexuality vs. religion

  • 3reppom
    iclfan2 wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    dwccrew wrote: IMO, a hate crime is when the attacker is motivated by harming someone due to their race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, etc. It is not limited to any one group. Also, not all crimes are hate crimes.
    Exactly.
    So I can beat the crap out of you for me thinking you are a douche, but you want harsher penalties for me beating the crap out of you because you are gay? That makes no sense. The reason for me beating you should play no role in the punishment. Hate crimes are a joke. What if I was beating you up because you took my beer at a bar, but I yelled ** while doing it. Does that mean it should now be a hate crime?
    The reason for a committing any crime always is a factor in punishment. There are gradations in the law precisely to take that into account.
  • Timber
    Anybody change their opinion on this topic yet??
  • cbus4life
    iclfan2 wrote: I highly doubt you can get kicked out of your house that you own for being gay. I call shenanigans on that one. Unless you meant renting, and then I would say a landlord should be able to kick out whoever they want if there is no contractual obligation. Additionally, hate crime legislation is a joke, and why can't being accepted as gay be enough, why do you want special privileges of being "protected". I think a private place of government should be able to fire you if they want to. Why should choosing male over female protect you from anything?
    No, they really can't. There are laws against housing discrimination.
  • jmog
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    You're right-- the Catholic Church hasn't changed in two thousand years. But the world has. It is about time for Catholics to catch up.

    Gay rights isn't a whim of cultural fashion. It is a matter of us gay people demanding our human rights.

    I'm an atheist. I don't accept what the Catholics or Baptists or Mormons say. So why should they have the right to dictate what kind of life I can lead?
    1. Why do the Catholics have to change? Give one valid reason.

    2. The two instances you cited have NOTHING to do with Catholics telling you, or any other homosexual, what kind of life they can lead.

    If you are a homosexual and you know Catholics are against homosexuality, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be going to work for them (aka the DC case).

    Same thing for the school, if you know Catholics are against homosexuality why would you send your child there if you are a homosexual yourself? It makes no sense.

    I don't agree with the school case, its not the kids "fault", the school should allow the kid in school but if homosexuality gets brought up in religion class (they have those in catholic schools) then the homosexual parents can NOT complain.

    i see no problem with the DC case. Its a private religious organization. It would be like the government of a state that allows gay marriage to force a church to do the ceremonies even if the church is against homosexuality.

    I'm a Christian who believes homosexuality is morally wrong, but I also believe gay marriage/unions should be allowed (try that on for size fairwood). However, you can't then force a religious organization to follow rules that go against its beliefs. Thats against the 1st amendment, period.
  • jmog
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    May I remind you that there was a time when Catholics burned gays (and all sorts of other heretics) at the stake? Catholics can no longer do that, of course, but I wonder how much their mindset has changed. Catholics (and Baptists and Mormons and Muslims and the rest) think they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. That does not allow for compromise. Since these people have political power in the areas where they exist, they can force their will on the masses. And they usually do.
    Your beliefs on Christians are so "broad stroke" that they all hate gays, all rally against gay rights, etc are so far off it would be like me saying that all gay men talk with a lisp and have AIDS. That statement would be just as asinine as most of yours.
  • jmog
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    I don't think this situation exists today because society has changed. Young gay people today don't have to run to a seminary or convent to escape what they are. I have to guess that most new priests from the past twenty years or so are straight. But there are enough older gay priests that their handling of this situation has been hypocritical. The church has no right to tell anyone else that we can't be gay.
    Your overall logic isn't very good, and you state things that simply are not true.

    The Catholic church is NOT saying that you can't be gay. Good Lord you are completely stretching things into complete and utter lies.
  • jmog
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    I will clarify:

    I want laws changed that will enable two gay men or two lesbians to legally marry and to enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage.

    I want anti-discrimination laws passed that will prevent gays and lesbians from being fired from their jobs or being evicted from their homes because of their sexual orientation.

    I want all states to prosecute attacks on gays as hate crimes with severe punishments for the attackers.


    Christian churches are preventing these things from happening. If it were not for Christian theology, gays would have proper protections in this country.
    1. I can agree with your first statement. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry/have civil unions.

    2. Um, FYI, you can sue someone for wrongful termination if they fire you for things you do in your personal life, away from the office, assuming these things aren't illegal. So, technically it is already against the law to fire someone because they are gay.

    3. Now the truth comes out, you want homosexuals added to the list of anti-discriminatory groups like race, sex, etc. Well, first off I think "hate crime" laws are retarded. Why should my punishment for assault be different if I attacked a straight, white male vs if I attacked a gay black man? You say you want "equal rights" but then bring up hate crimes which basically say your life is more important than those of us in a "non hate crime group" like white males. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

    4. Your last tirade couldn't be more false if you tried. I don't even know where to begin its so off base.
  • FairwoodKing
    jmog wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    I will clarify:

    I want laws changed that will enable two gay men or two lesbians to legally marry and to enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage.

    I want anti-discrimination laws passed that will prevent gays and lesbians from being fired from their jobs or being evicted from their homes because of their sexual orientation.

    I want all states to prosecute attacks on gays as hate crimes with severe punishments for the attackers.


    Christian churches are preventing these things from happening. If it were not for Christian theology, gays would have proper protections in this country.
    1. I can agree with your first statement. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry/have civil unions.

    2. Um, FYI, you can sue someone for wrongful termination if they fire you for things you do in your personal life, away from the office, assuming these things aren't illegal. So, technically it is already against the law to fire someone because they are gay.

    3. Now the truth comes out, you want homosexuals added to the list of anti-discriminatory groups like race, sex, etc. Well, first off I think "hate crime" laws are retarded. Why should my punishment for assault be different if I attacked a straight, white male vs if I attacked a gay black man? You say you want "equal rights" but then bring up hate crimes which basically say your life is more important than those of us in a "non hate crime group" like white males. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

    4. Your last tirade couldn't be more false if you tried. I don't even know where to begin its so off base.
    2. Many, many gays have been fired when their bosses found out they were gay. In some places, this is a very big issue. That's why I included it.

    3. I have already explained what hate crimes are. They are in essence an attack against a whole community. That's why the concept of hate crimes exists. And, FYI, if a gang of black guys attacked a straight white male just because he was white, that would also qualify as a hate crime.

    4. My "tirade" is neither off base nor hypocritical. The Christian faith has been responsible for preventing gays and lesbians from having equal rights. This is a fact.


    There is an old Cherokee saying: Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins. You haven't walked an inch in mine. You have never experienced the discrimination we gays experience, so you should not judge us nor our agenda.
  • BCSbunk
    fan_from_texas wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote: I think the Catholic Church is the biggest hate group in the world. They claim to love everyone, but their actions surely prove just the opposite.
    I'm a little unclear on this. Is it possible to love someone and disapprove of actions they take? Is it possible to love someone and treat them harshly? Is it possible to be full of love and yet adopt stances that others find repugnant?

    Regardless of whether homosexuality is kosher or not, it seems to me that an organization sticking by a belief it has sincerely held for thousands of years--rather than dropping it at the whim of cultural fashion--isn't indicative of hate.
    Yeah sound logic here. The KKK has always lynched so it must be okay. The Church used to hang witches so it must be good.

    It is hatred and it will eventually be stricken down by law just like the racist practices have been limited.
  • BCSbunk
    jmog wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    I will clarify:

    I want laws changed that will enable two gay men or two lesbians to legally marry and to enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage.

    I want anti-discrimination laws passed that will prevent gays and lesbians from being fired from their jobs or being evicted from their homes because of their sexual orientation.

    I want all states to prosecute attacks on gays as hate crimes with severe punishments for the attackers.


    Christian churches are preventing these things from happening. If it were not for Christian theology, gays would have proper protections in this country.
    1. I can agree with your first statement. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry/have civil unions.

    2. Um, FYI, you can sue someone for wrongful termination if they fire you for things you do in your personal life, away from the office, assuming these things aren't illegal. So, technically it is already against the law to fire someone because they are gay.

    3. Now the truth comes out, you want homosexuals added to the list of anti-discriminatory groups like race, sex, etc. Well, first off I think "hate crime" laws are retarded. Why should my punishment for assault be different if I attacked a straight, white male vs if I attacked a gay black man? You say you want "equal rights" but then bring up hate crimes which basically say your life is more important than those of us in a "non hate crime group" like white males. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

    4. Your last tirade couldn't be more false if you tried. I don't even know where to begin its so off base.
    Anti discrimination is needed for sexual preferences.
  • BCSbunk
    fan_from_texas wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote: I'm an atheist. I don't accept what the Catholics or Baptists or Mormons say. So why should they have the right to dictate what kind of life I can lead?
    How are they wrongfully dictating what kind of life you can lead? It's certainly their prerogative to run their organization as they see fit, just as it is fine and proper for various gay rights organizations to operate as they see fit. If you don't like what they stand for, don't support them. I don't see what the big deal is.

    I'm sure there are plenty of clubs that wouldn't accept me as a member. I guess I can either suck it up, put on my big boy pants, and get over it, or, in the alternative, change who I am so they will accept me. If it's a big enough deal to be accepted, I can change who I am. If it isn't, then I might as well get over it.

    In most states, sexual orientation isn't a protected class, IIRC. I think it's unfair to label an organization 'hateful' simply because they disagree with you.
    Yeah segregation of gays and straights yeah that's the way segregation!

    Gays do not choose to be gay so the hatred will be stricken down. It is coming.
  • CenterBHSFan
    BCSbunk wrote:
    fan_from_texas wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote: I think the Catholic Church is the biggest hate group in the world. They claim to love everyone, but their actions surely prove just the opposite.
    I'm a little unclear on this. Is it possible to love someone and disapprove of actions they take? Is it possible to love someone and treat them harshly? Is it possible to be full of love and yet adopt stances that others find repugnant?

    Regardless of whether homosexuality is kosher or not, it seems to me that an organization sticking by a belief it has sincerely held for thousands of years--rather than dropping it at the whim of cultural fashion--isn't indicative of hate.
    Yeah sound logic here. The KKK has always lynched so it must be okay. The Church used to hang witches so it must be good.
    It is hatred and it will eventually be stricken down by law just like the racist practices have been limited.
    Let me reiterate what you just typed there:
    "The Church USED to hange witches so it must be good"

    So is the line of logic that you're using of the mind that if the Church USED to do something that means it still is doing something?
    It's what you typed.
    When you used the word "used" that means that something changed and that they no longer do it.
    But, hey, why let that stop ya?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, lots and lots of ZEALOTRY on both sides of this issue, this thread makes it glaringly obvious.

    :)
  • CenterBHSFan
    One other thing to think about concerning the girl who is not allowed to attend the Catholic school.

    People/kids are denied admittance or don't get to go to Catholic schools all the time for many reasons.
    - don't have the money for tuition
    - kids with real societal and emotional problems that can't handle a normal classroom type setting
    - parents decide that they don't want to send their kids to a Catholic school because they don't practice that faith
    - and so on and so on

    We don't have to like any of those reasons that I listed above. We don't have to like that the little girl mentioned in the OP was denied. But this sort of stuff happens all the time.
    So what are we left with?
    Do we sue the school because we can't afford a private/parochial education?
    Do we sue the school because they don't share the same faith as the parents would like them to?
    Do we sue the school because our kid(s) can't handle being educated in a normal classroom setting?

    I think the problems arise when we pick and choose which situation that don't conform to our own ideals.
  • WeAreNC
    You say that the Catholics burned gays at one time? Well cheer up. They have changed.. They don't burn them now? Don't expect them or any other religious groups, or most people for that matter to except gays. God will forigive you.. It's not to late to be straight.
  • FairwoodKing
    WeAreNC wrote: You say that the Catholics burned gays at one time? Well cheer up. They have changed.. They don't burn them now? Don't expect them or any other religious groups, or most people for that matter to except gays. God will forigive you.. It's not to late to be straight.


    That's a very ignorant comment. It is an attitude like yours that we have to fight against.

    Let me make one thing very clear: I have been gay since I was five years old. I tried turning straight when I was in my 20's but it didn't work. The only conscious decision I ever made was to accept myself for what I am. I can no more turn straight than a white person can turn black or a brown-eyed person can have blue eyes. I am what I am. And now that I have accepted myself, I am very happy being gay.
  • WeAreNC
    Well actually a brown-eyed person can have Blue eyes.. With contacts. So see anything is possible. There is still hope for you :)
  • CenterBHSFan
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    WeAreNC wrote: You say that the Catholics burned gays at one time? Well cheer up. They have changed.. They don't burn them now? Don't expect them or any other religious groups, or most people for that matter to except gays. God will forigive you.. It's not to late to be straight.


    That's a very ignorant comment. It is an attitude like yours that we have to fight against.

    Really (?)

    Seems that there are a few ignorant statements made on this thread by various people, even you.
    Hell, I might (probably) even be guilty of this.

    And attitudes?! Nawww.... I don't think we wanna go there! :angel:
  • DenisonBigRedLax
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    WeAreNC wrote: You say that the Catholics burned gays at one time? Well cheer up. They have changed.. They don't burn them now? Don't expect them or any other religious groups, or most people for that matter to except gays. God will forigive you.. It's not to late to be straight.


    That's a very ignorant comment. It is an attitude like yours that we have to fight against.

    Let me make one thing very clear: I have been gay since I was five years old. I tried turning straight when I was in my 20's but it didn't work. The only conscious decision I ever made was to accept myself for what I am. I can no more turn straight than a white person can turn black or a brown-eyed person can have blue eyes. I am what I am. And now that I have accepted myself, I am very happy being gay.
    doesnt seem like youre happy about being gay, seems like your kind of bitter
  • GoChiefs
    FairwoodKing wrote: Let me make one thing very clear: I have been gay since I was five years old.
    But if you didn't choose to be gay..wouldn't you have been gay out of the womb? :D
  • Gardens35
    Anyone want a 20 piece nugget?
  • Writerbuckeye
    fan_from_texas wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote: I think the Catholic Church is the biggest hate group in the world. They claim to love everyone, but their actions surely prove just the opposite.
    I'm a little unclear on this. Is it possible to love someone and disapprove of actions they take? Is it possible to love someone and treat them harshly? Is it possible to be full of love and yet adopt stances that others find repugnant?

    Regardless of whether homosexuality is kosher or not, it seems to me that an organization sticking by a belief it has sincerely held for thousands of years--rather than dropping it at the whim of cultural fashion--isn't indicative of hate.
    This.

    In America, we should be allowed to have organizations that can pick & choose based on their beliefs.

    The courts should not be dictating membership rolls, benefits or anything else. You don't like how they do things, then don't support them. If enough people don't support them, they go down the drain.

    A simple and easy solution.
  • FairwoodKing
    DenisonBigRedLax wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    WeAreNC wrote: You say that the Catholics burned gays at one time? Well cheer up. They have changed.. They don't burn them now? Don't expect them or any other religious groups, or most people for that matter to except gays. God will forigive you.. It's not to late to be straight.


    That's a very ignorant comment. It is an attitude like yours that we have to fight against.

    Let me make one thing very clear: I have been gay since I was five years old. I tried turning straight when I was in my 20's but it didn't work. The only conscious decision I ever made was to accept myself for what I am. I can no more turn straight than a white person can turn black or a brown-eyed person can have blue eyes. I am what I am. And now that I have accepted myself, I am very happy being gay.
    doesnt seem like youre happy about being gay, seems like your kind of bitter
    There was a time when I was scared to death to be gay. Mercifully, those days are gone forever. Even though I am no longer sexually active, I have some great memories of the boyfriends I had. I am a singing member of the Seattle Men's Chorus, the largest (and finest) male choir in the world. It, along with the Seattle Women's Chorus, is the largest gay organization in the Pacific NW. We have done AIDS fundraisers, concerts for breast cancer awareness, memorials for 9/11, rundraisers to bring choral music into the Seattle Public Schools, and all sorts of other events. Everyone in Seattle knows we're gay, and we are very highly respected. In short, I am very comfortable being gay and I wouldn't change anything now even if I could.
  • FairwoodKing
    GoChiefs wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote: Let me make one thing very clear: I have been gay since I was five years old.
    But if you didn't choose to be gay..wouldn't you have been gay out of the womb? :D
    Very possibly. But my memory doesn't go back that far.
  • jmog
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    jmog wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    I will clarify:

    I want laws changed that will enable two gay men or two lesbians to legally marry and to enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage.

    I want anti-discrimination laws passed that will prevent gays and lesbians from being fired from their jobs or being evicted from their homes because of their sexual orientation.

    I want all states to prosecute attacks on gays as hate crimes with severe punishments for the attackers.


    Christian churches are preventing these things from happening. If it were not for Christian theology, gays would have proper protections in this country.
    1. I can agree with your first statement. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry/have civil unions.

    2. Um, FYI, you can sue someone for wrongful termination if they fire you for things you do in your personal life, away from the office, assuming these things aren't illegal. So, technically it is already against the law to fire someone because they are gay.

    3. Now the truth comes out, you want homosexuals added to the list of anti-discriminatory groups like race, sex, etc. Well, first off I think "hate crime" laws are retarded. Why should my punishment for assault be different if I attacked a straight, white male vs if I attacked a gay black man? You say you want "equal rights" but then bring up hate crimes which basically say your life is more important than those of us in a "non hate crime group" like white males. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

    4. Your last tirade couldn't be more false if you tried. I don't even know where to begin its so off base.
    2. Many, many gays have been fired when their bosses found out they were gay. In some places, this is a very big issue. That's why I included it.

    3. I have already explained what hate crimes are. They are in essence an attack against a whole community. That's why the concept of hate crimes exists. And, FYI, if a gang of black guys attacked a straight white male just because he was white, that would also qualify as a hate crime.

    4. My "tirade" is neither off base nor hypocritical. The Christian faith has been responsible for preventing gays and lesbians from having equal rights. This is a fact.


    There is an old Cherokee saying: Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins. You haven't walked an inch in mine. You have never experienced the discrimination we gays experience, so you should not judge us nor our agenda.
    This is why you aren't taken seriously Fairwood, you make outlandish statements that aren't even close to being true.

    Show me one time I "judged you or your agenda", just once.

    I "understand" the "plight" of the homosexual, my uncle died of AIDS from being a homosexual in the 80s, when it was 100x worse than anything you are going through right now.

    I have a sibling that is a homosexual and see it on a daily basis.

    I treated my uncle, and I treat my sibling NO different because they were/are homosexuals. However, that doesn't mean I change my beliefs on homosexuality.

    I've said over and over that gay marriage/unions should be allowed as long as churches won't be forced to perform the ceremonies.

    I've said that you shouldn't be able to fire someone because they are gay.

    However, you won't find me believing for a second in "hate crimes", it is one of the most retarded things in our legal system.

    Basically it makes someone else's life or rights more important than mine or others.

    Hate crimes are unconstitutional when you really boil it down.
  • FairwoodKing
    jmog wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:
    jmog wrote:
    FairwoodKing wrote:

    I will clarify:

    I want laws changed that will enable two gay men or two lesbians to legally marry and to enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage.

    I want anti-discrimination laws passed that will prevent gays and lesbians from being fired from their jobs or being evicted from their homes because of their sexual orientation.

    I want all states to prosecute attacks on gays as hate crimes with severe punishments for the attackers.


    Christian churches are preventing these things from happening. If it were not for Christian theology, gays would have proper protections in this country.
    1. I can agree with your first statement. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry/have civil unions.

    2. Um, FYI, you can sue someone for wrongful termination if they fire you for things you do in your personal life, away from the office, assuming these things aren't illegal. So, technically it is already against the law to fire someone because they are gay.

    3. Now the truth comes out, you want homosexuals added to the list of anti-discriminatory groups like race, sex, etc. Well, first off I think "hate crime" laws are retarded. Why should my punishment for assault be different if I attacked a straight, white male vs if I attacked a gay black man? You say you want "equal rights" but then bring up hate crimes which basically say your life is more important than those of us in a "non hate crime group" like white males. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

    4. Your last tirade couldn't be more false if you tried. I don't even know where to begin its so off base.
    2. Many, many gays have been fired when their bosses found out they were gay. In some places, this is a very big issue. That's why I included it.

    3. I have already explained what hate crimes are. They are in essence an attack against a whole community. That's why the concept of hate crimes exists. And, FYI, if a gang of black guys attacked a straight white male just because he was white, that would also qualify as a hate crime.

    4. My "tirade" is neither off base nor hypocritical. The Christian faith has been responsible for preventing gays and lesbians from having equal rights. This is a fact.


    There is an old Cherokee saying: Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins. You haven't walked an inch in mine. You have never experienced the discrimination we gays experience, so you should not judge us nor our agenda.
    This is why you aren't taken seriously Fairwood, you make outlandish statements that aren't even close to being true.

    Show me one time I "judged you or your agenda", just once.

    I "understand" the "plight" of the homosexual, my uncle died of AIDS from being a homosexual in the 80s, when it was 100x worse than anything you are going through right now.

    I have a sibling that is a homosexual and see it on a daily basis.

    I treated my uncle, and I treat my sibling NO different because they were/are homosexuals. However, that doesn't mean I change my beliefs on homosexuality.

    I've said over and over that gay marriage/unions should be allowed as long as churches won't be forced to perform the ceremonies.

    I've said that you shouldn't be able to fire someone because they are gay.

    However, you won't find me believing for a second in "hate crimes", it is one of the most retarded things in our legal system.

    Basically it makes someone else's life or rights more important than mine or others.

    Hate crimes are unconstitutional when you really boil it down.
    People like me are taken seriously. That's why we have made so much progress in the past thirty years and why we are going to make a lot more progress in the next thirty years.

    Whether you realize it or not, you judged us when you went on your tirade about hate crimes. If you were a member of a group against whom hate crimes are committed, you would understand. But since you haven't walked an inch in my moccosins (despite having gay relatives), you cannot understand.