Homosexuality vs. religion

• DenisonBigRedLax

  Society wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote:

  majorspark wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: These religious organizations are responsible for passing laws that hurt people like me. Just a few months ago in California, the voters turned down a gay rights referendum largely becacuse the Mormon Church campaigned so strongly against it.
  
  Fortunately for me, here in the State of Washington, sexual orientation is a protected class. True, we still don't have gay marriage, but we have everything except calling it that. If I had a lover, we would have almost all of the rights of a married couple, including the right to adopt children. It makes a big difference.

  
  Then be thankful you have a place to live as you wish in this country instead of trying to force your beliefs on the whole nation. We can't all agree on everything.

  If I replaced the word "gay" with "black", would you still think I was trying to force my beliefs on everyone? I have no more choice in being gay than African Americans have in being black. We are only looking for human rights for everybody.

  Don't lie to yourself. You have a choice.

  LOL!
• enigmaax

  The thing that always gets me about these "beliefs" is that homosexuality is no more of a sin than any other sin. Is it unforgivable? Do they refuse to have children with divorced parents or parents who commited adultery or single parents who have sex with people? Are these "not as bad" as homosexual parents?
• 3reppom

  

  I do not see any reason why people of any race, creed or orientation should be denied basic human rights, such as having a family. When it comes to attempting to stop people from receiving those innate rights there aren't many groups more proactive in attempting to deny those rights than the Catholic Church. However I would not go as far as to say that the Catholic Church is a hate group, just that they are misinformed about a lot of todays issues. I was born and raised a Catholic. Went to a Catholic school until I went to college. Most catholic children are taught that all people are created equal. When those same children become young adults the message changes. It basically becomes all people are created equal...except for Gays, Mormons, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Budists, Sikhs, Atheists ect. The Catholic Church has the right to say whatever they want to, but they are dead wrong on a lot of issues. Gay rights is one area, another area where the Catholic Church has no leg to stand on is their rigid objection to the use of condom's to try to curtail the AIDS epidemic in Africa. I am not a massive fan of the church by any standard, but they can exist and say whatever they want.
• september63

  

  3reppom wrote: I do not see any reason why people of any race, creed or orientation should be denied basic human rights, such as having a family. When it comes to attempting to stop people from receiving those innate rights there aren't many groups more proactive in attempting to deny those rights than the Catholic Church. However I would not go as far as to say that the Catholic Church is a hate group, just that they are misinformed about a lot of todays issues. I was born and raised a Catholic. Went to a Catholic school until I went to college. Most catholic children are taught that all people are created equal. When those same children become young adults the message changes. It basically becomes all people are created equal...except for Gays, Mormons, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Budists, Sikhs, Atheists ect. The Catholic Church has the right to say whatever they want to, but they are dead wrong on a lot of issues. Gay rights is one area, another area where the Catholic Church has no leg to stand on is their rigid objection to the use of condom's to try to curtail the AIDS epidemic in Africa. I am not a massive fan of the church by any standard, but they can exist and say whatever they want.

  
  That was way to intelliigant to have been posted on here. Sometimes it isnt actually intelligance, but perhaps more common sense that should prevail. Kudos to you!!
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Ok, so the Catholic school denied the little girl admittance to their own *brand name* school.
  
  Is the girl being thoroughly denied an education?
  
  Or is the little girl denied education at that particular school?
  
  I think we can all see the difference. That little girl was NOT denied a basic human right that we Americans enjoy on a daily basis.
• HitsRus

  

  september63 wrote:

  3reppom wrote: I do not see any reason why people of any race, creed or orientation should be denied basic human rights, such as having a family. When it comes to attempting to stop people from receiving those innate rights there aren't many groups more proactive in attempting to deny those rights than the Catholic Church. However I would not go as far as to say that the Catholic Church is a hate group, just that they are misinformed about a lot of todays issues. I was born and raised a Catholic. Went to a Catholic school until I went to college. Most catholic children are taught that all people are created equal. When those same children become young adults the message changes. It basically becomes all people are created equal...except for Gays, Mormons, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Budists, Sikhs, Atheists ect. The Catholic Church has the right to say whatever they want to, but they are dead wrong on a lot of issues. Gay rights is one area, another area where the Catholic Church has no leg to stand on is their rigid objection to the use of condom's to try to curtail the AIDS epidemic in Africa. I am not a massive fan of the church by any standard, but they can exist and say whatever they want.

  
  That was way to intelliigant to have been posted on here. Sometimes it isnt actually intelligance, but perhaps more common sense that should prevail. Kudos to you!!

  
  Race, creed or sex....now we have added 'orientation'....anything else we want to add to the Constitution while we are at it? Oh, yeah...the right to have a family. Wait a minute! You get to have a family if you have heterosexual intercourse!.
  
  Just kind of being a troll here, these things I don't believe are guaranteed by the Constitution.
• swamisez

  

  As a believer in Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible I can tell you that the practice of having sympathy for the sinner, and hating the sin is very difficult.
  
  The way we are called to love our world requires us to look upon things that are of a broken world and still be empathetic toward the sinner. Seeing that we too are broken, we must realize that their actions are in rebellion of a God who they don't know.
  
  What makes it incredibly difficult is that when we tell the sinner we do not approve of their actions, and take stands against them, the sinner instinctively believes we do not love them. The idea that, "if you love me you should support me?". It is very difficult. Often we are put in a place where have to say we love you, but we hate what you are doing.
  
  That is why it is imperative that a relationship be built that fosters acceptance and trust, so you can tell the person in sin that they are acting in disagreement with the teachings of Christ.
  
  The Catholic Church is put in a very tough spot. If they accept the girl whose parents are lesbians, their own diocese likely castigates them for shunning their stringent belief system. If they fail to accept the girl, gay rights activists portray the Catholic church as being bigots and narrow-minded.
  
  I doubt there will ever be conclusion, but it is my hope that through the actions of the church everyone will feel loved and appreciated, and respected, so when a Christian speaks out on the sins in the life of a homosexual, the homosexual can mutually point out sinful nature in the Christian and each can amicably strive together in the good fight of faith.
  
  (I hope that made sense)[/align]
• Gardens35

  .....could be another Riding Dirty, Are You Paranoid thread.
• september63

  

  Id rather have one of 1000's of kids in orphanages in a home, gay parents or not.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  There's alot of ZEAL in this thread!
• FairwoodKing

  swamisez wrote: As a believer in Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible I can tell you that the practice of having sympathy for the sinner, and hating the sin is very difficult.
  
  The way we are called to love our world requires us to look upon things that are of a broken world and still be empathetic toward the sinner. Seeing that we too are broken, we must realize that their actions are in rebellion of a God who they don't know.
  
  What makes it incredibly difficult is that when we tell the sinner we do not approve of their actions, and take stands against them, the sinner instinctively believes we do not love them. The idea that, "if you love me you should support me?". It is very difficult. Often we are put in a place where have to say we love you, but we hate what you are doing.
  
  That is why it is imperative that a relationship be built that fosters acceptance and trust, so you can tell the person in sin that they are acting in disagreement with the teachings of Christ.
  
  The Catholic Church is put in a very tough spot. If they accept the girl whose parents are lesbians, their own diocese likely castigates them for shunning their stringent belief system. If they fail to accept the girl, gay rights activists portray the Catholic church as being bigots and narrow-minded.
  
  I doubt there will ever be conclusion, but it is my hope that through the actions of the church everyone will feel loved and appreciated, and respected, so when a Christian speaks out on the sins in the life of a homosexual, the homosexual can mutually point out sinful nature in the Christian and each can amicably strive together in the good fight of faith.
  
  (I hope that made sense)[/align]

  May I remind you that there was a time when Catholics burned gays (and all sorts of other heretics) at the stake? Catholics can no longer do that, of course, but I wonder how much their mindset has changed. Catholics (and Baptists and Mormons and Muslims and the rest) think they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. That does not allow for compromise. Since these people have political power in the areas where they exist, they can force their will on the masses. And they usually do.
• DenisonBigRedLax

  then why dont gay people run for office and gain some political power...if the people vote no, well then too bad
  
  this is a democracy biotttch
• Society

  DenisonBigRedLax wrote: then why dont gay people run for office and gain some political power...if the people vote no, well then too bad
  
  this is a democracy biotttch

  Exactly.
• majorspark

  

  FairwoodKing wrote: If I replaced the word "gay" with "black", would you still think I was trying to force my beliefs on everyone? I have no more choice in being gay than African Americans have in being black. We are only looking for human rights for everybody.

  I don't equate sexual orientation with skin color or race. As for laws governing sexual activity between consenting adults there are very few left on the books in most states and communities. The exception being prostitution. You are free to engage in the sexual activity of your choice with a consenting adult just don't pay for it.
• FairwoodKing

  I shouldn't especially pick on Catholics because Mormons and Baptists are worse than Catholics. But the Catholic Church leaves itself wide open for criticism. For many years, the majority of priests and others who studied for the priesthood were closet-case gays. I know this for a fact because I had sex with at least eight of them and they all told me the same story. The primary reasons they studied for the priesthood in the first place was to avoid temptation. They knew they were gay but they were terrified to reveal it. So they went to the seminary thinking that everything would be just fine. But nearly everybody else was there for the same reason. All eight of these men told me that they had their first sexual experience in the seminary. This revelation caused most of these men to drop out.
  
  I don't think this situation exists today because society has changed. Young gay people today don't have to run to a seminary or convent to escape what they are. I have to guess that most new priests from the past twenty years or so are straight. But there are enough older gay priests that their handling of this situation has been hypocritical. The church has no right to tell anyone else that we can't be gay.
• swamisez

  

  "Catholics (and Baptists and Mormons and Muslims and the rest) think they are right and the rest of the world is wrong."
  
  There are so many possible statements I could make regarding this, my head is spinning.
  
  I wish I had the energy to type them but I do not.
  
  1. When you say "the rest of the world is wrong" are you implying that the majority of the world advocates homosexuality?
  1/3 of the world's population professes Christianity as their religion, 1/4 profess Islam. Both religions indicate the practice as being an abomination. The number of people remaining on the planet does not allow for a majority of the world to accept the practice of homosexuality as acceptable.
  
  2. Typically in society when a majority group exists, they do make the laws. That is kind of the story of human development. It seems in your case, what you need to hope for is a day when homosexuality is prominent enough to enact legislation that will override the majority opinion. In many cases, the minority have achieved a measure of success that defies logic. The fact homosexuals are no longer incarcerated or sent to asylums is an indication of the victory the minority has achieved against an overwhelming majority. Sadly, homosexuals can never be a majority group. They like the Shakers of the 1840's have an indefinite membership structure. It requires conversion, not simple addition. Unless homosexual couples both female and male can start having children legitimately their majority status will never be achieved.
  
  I hope that you will try to compromise with others and see their point of view regarding various issues you have addressed. The idea of compromise doesn't mean complete agreement, it is a give and take relationship that requires concession by both parties. I am unsure of the concessions you feel you are making or the severity of the concessions you are asking your neighbors to make. Given that the United States still operates out of Judeo-Christian ethics I hope you are realizing that you are asking a great multitude to turn a blind eye to a belief system that was likely handed down to them by parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on. I hope you will not see it as bigotry, but simply a lifestyle. While your lifestyle is not seen as accepted by the majority of the world's citizens, you must realize that as a minority you are faced with having to operate within a society that has the right to dictate rules to the masses.
• september63

  

  IF you had started with that post this debate would have ended before it started. You were beating around the bush and FINALLY posted what you wanted to post from the beginning.
• FairwoodKing

  majorspark wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: If I replaced the word "gay" with "black", would you still think I was trying to force my beliefs on everyone? I have no more choice in being gay than African Americans have in being black. We are only looking for human rights for everybody.

  I don't equate sexual orientation with skin color or race. As for laws governing sexual activity between consenting adults there are very few left on the books in most states and communities. The exception being prostitution. You are free to engage in the sexual activity of your choice with a consenting adult just don't pay for it.

  The laws in Texas were just changed very recently and it was because of a state supreme court ruling. Two gays or lesbians having sex could be prosecuted. The law was seldom enforced, but when it was, it caused quite a commotion.
  
  The issues on the gay agenda involve the failure of states to allow gay marriages and the protection of gays so we can't be fired from our jobs or thrown out of our homes because of our sexuality. Laws are currently set up so that straight couples have all sorts of legal opportunities and protections. I think there are something like 186 rights that straight couples have that gay couples do not have in most states. And in many states, it is possible to be fired or thrown out of your home for being gays. These are the rights we're fighting for.
• DenisonBigRedLax

  FairwoodKing wrote: I shouldn't especially pick on Catholics because Mormons and Baptists are worse than Catholics. But the Catholic Church leaves itself wide open for criticism. For many years, the majority of priests and others who studied for the priesthood were closet-case gays. I know this for a fact because I had sex with at least eight of them and they all told me the same story. The primary reasons they studied for the priesthood in the first place was to avoid temptation. They knew they were gay but they were terrified to reveal it. So they went to the seminary thinking that everything would be just fine. But nearly everybody else was there for the same reason. All eight of these men told me that they had their first sexual experience in the seminary. This revelation caused most of these men to drop out.
  
  I don't think this situation exists today because society has changed. Young gay people today don't have to run to a seminary or convent to escape what they are. I have to guess that most new priests from the past twenty years or so are straight. But there are enough older gay priests that their handling of this situation has been hypocritical. The church has no right to tell anyone else that we can't be gay.

  http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ghGk5Lj6-e5KJOZMpIzs-pBPVnTAD9E7A8NO1
  
  BOOM!
• CenterBHSFan

  

  FairwoodKing wrote: I think the Catholic Church is the biggest hate group in the world.

  FairwoodKing wrote: I shouldn't especially pick on Catholics because Mormons and Baptists are worse than Catholics.

  
  
  Has anybody else noticed the irony?
• dwccrew

  

  CenterBHSFan wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: I think the Catholic Church is the biggest hate group in the world.

  FairwoodKing wrote: I shouldn't especially pick on Catholics because Mormons and Baptists are worse than Catholics.

  
  
  Has anybody else noticed the irony?

  Fairwood normally has arguments that don't flow well or follow a consistency.
• iclfan2

  

  Kinda like people voting against smokers = good.
  People voting against the gays = bad.
  Hypocrite?
• FairwoodKing

  september63 wrote: IF you had started with that post this debate would have ended before it started. You were beating around the bush and FINALLY posted what you wanted to post from the beginning.

  I will clarify:
  
  I want laws changed that will enable two gay men or two lesbians to legally marry and to enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage.
  
  I want anti-discrimination laws passed that will prevent gays and lesbians from being fired from their jobs or being evicted from their homes because of their sexual orientation.
  
  I want all states to prosecute attacks on gays as hate crimes with severe punishments for the attackers.
  
  
  Christian churches are preventing these things from happening. If it were not for Christian theology, gays would have proper protections in this country.
• DenisonBigRedLax

  ZING!
  BANG!
  BOOM!
  
  
• FairwoodKing

  iclfan2 wrote: Kinda like people voting against smokers = good.
  People voting against the gays = bad.
  Hypocrite?

  I have been very clear and unwavering on what I believe in. I am not a hypocrite.